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Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

Hello and welcome once more to another week of Tinto Maps. This week we are going to the lands even further to the East and taking a look at Korea and Japan. So, without further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Korea during the Goryeo dynasty was under the orbit of Yuán, and had very close ties with it, with the Yuán emperors taking Korean wives. The north, though, and also Tamna in the Jeju island wouldn’t be unified under Korea until the following Joseon dynasty, so they are still separated although all of them also under Yuán. On the other side, Japan starts in a very interesting situation. After a failed attempt to overthrow the shogunate and restore imperial power during the Kenmu restoration, one of the generals that contributed to such restoration, Ashikaga Takauji, in the end established his own shogunate in 1336 (just before the start of the game). The emperor had then to flee the capital and thus we start with the period of the Northern and Southern Courts, with two opposing Emperors and the shogun fighting for legitimacy. So, although it appears unified at first glance, Japan hides many internal divisions within (more on that later). Further South, the kingdom of Ryūkyū is not yet unified, so the three mountain kingdoms of Hokuzan, Chūzan and Nanzan vie for supremacy over the island.

Societies of pops
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Basically already shown in the Manchuria Tinto Maps, but they need to be shown here too, especially the Ainu.

Dynasties
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As it happens in China, the “Goryeo dynasty” name is actually not the name of the dynasty itself, which is actually the house of Wang.

Locations
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Provinces
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Here (as well as with the areas next) we have tried to follow the administrative division of both countries in period, but we’ve had to make some adjustments. In Korea, we had to account for the fact that historically, almost immediately after the start of the game the Josen dynasty took over and the administrative divisions are somewhat different, so we’ve adjusted them together (and had to divide some of the bigger provinces for gameplay reasons). In Japan, the administrative divisions remained virtually unchanged since the establishment of the Ritsuryō system in the 7-8th century until after the Meiji restoration in 1868. However, we still had to make some adjustments, and the smaller ones had to unfortunately disappear.

Areas
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Terrain
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Very mountainous and forested areas both, so the few plains have to be taken the most advantage of.

Development
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Not bad developed areas, but obviously development decreases the further north it goes.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Korea is mainly Korean, and Japan has been divided into four main groups. Besides this, we also have Ainu in the north, Jeju in Jeju island and Ryūkyū in the Ryūkyū islands.

Religions
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Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.

Raw Materials
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Not bad areas for resources, and plenty of rice and fish in Japan to get good sushi. The more observant of you will see that the resources of Hokkaido have already been adjusted thanks to feedback from the previous Manchuria Tinto Maps.

Markets
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Some may find surprising the presence of Izumi as a Market in Japan, but it is the area that served as the main point of entrance for commerce into central Japan, where the merchant town of Sakai developed, until later Osaka developed under Toyotomi and basically took over that function.

Population
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Not much to say here, except that quite a bit of population waiting for some action.

Extraterritorial Countries
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I’m sure many of you were waiting for this. The samurai clans in Japan are represented as Extraterritorial Countries, and we have tried to be as close as possible to their distribution of territory in 1337. As you can imagine, that is not an easy task, and some more tweaking is needed, so if you have any feedback or extra info on that regard it would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, there’s some overlapping of some clans on the same territory and only one name can be shown at a time, so not all names are visible (the Oda clan is still there, I promise), but there are a total of 143 clans (not counting Ashikaga), plus two extra for each of the imperial courts that are present at start. Related to this, each clan will pledge its allegiance to either the northern or the southern court, mainly based on their historical allegiances but allowing a bit of leeway (and those allegiances don’t necessarily have to be permanent). So, as a bit of an extra tease, these are the allegiances of the clans at start (yellow are the north court supporters, blue are the southern court ones, and again keep in mind that only one color can be present even if there’s more than one clan with different allegiances in the same location)
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And that is all for today. Next week there will not be any Tinto Maps due to being a bank holiday, so next one will be in two weeks for a look further south into South East Asia. See you there.
 
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Why is it called the Sea of Japan? At that time, the neighboring countries were basically called Whale Sea, because the Sea of Japan was called after the twentieth century.
 
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If I understand correctly, Extraterritorial Counties is related to pop rather than land? However, the power of Japanese clans is reflected in the control of land, and this mechanism should be given to the tribes under the Mongol Empire rather than to the Japanese daimyo.
You are mixing it with Societies of Pops, Extraterritorial Countries are tied to buildings in a location.
 
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I think that if an in-game religion is meant to represent the syncretic practice of more than one religion the name should reflect that. Not doing so is just misleading.

Japanese Buddhism doesn't have any distinctive characteristics besides the historical syncretism. There are a number of schools of Mahayana Buddhism following the Chinese cannon some of which are distinctly Japanese but there is no monolithic Japanese branch so having "Shinto" as a branch of Buddhism doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. The main theological divide is Zen vs Pure Land. I'm probably nit picking here though.

I think using the name Shinto for the sake of recognition made a whole lot of sense in the EU4 era but is frankly quite absurd given the attitude towards historical accuracy you all have displayed in past Tinto Map threads.
 
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Raw Materials
View attachment 1204623
Not bad areas for resources, and plenty of rice and fish in Japan to get good sushi. The more observant of you will see that the resources of Hokkaido have already been adjusted thanks to feedback from the previous Manchuria Tinto Maps.
I'm curious how the distribution of coal in Korea was determined. Are there sources for coal use in the time period?

I didn't find any with a quick search, but this article lists some of the mines that were producing coal when Korea first industrialized under the Japanese:
  • Pyongyang (Seogyong location) sits on top of a large anthracite field and was the first city to industrialize, it currently has fiber crops.
  • Kujan County (Unju location) in North Pyongyang province had some of the highest quality anthracite in Korea, it currently has silk.
  • In South Korea, anthracite was mostly mined in Gangwon province, specifically in Samcheok and Yeongwol (both locations are in the game). These locations currently have gems and wool.
  • Other types of high quality coal were mined in North Korea, especially in Anju (Sukju location) and Sariwon (Jaeryeong location).
If there are no sources for significant time period coal extraction and use, I'd suggest moving the coal locations to places that were the actual main coal producers when Korea did industrialize (it was of course well outside the time period).
Depending on how coal and its late emergence in the time period is supposed to be handled, maybe they should even start with none, or just one in the North close to China (which had been using coal extensively), but with the potential to discover more coal later?

As for iron, the Pyongyang area wasn't just rich in coal but also iron ore, crucial for making it the first industrialized area of Korea. The location for this would be Songrim (Hwangju location) which currently has wheat. Was iron mining concentrated in Cheongsong, which currently has iron, in the time period?
The Riwon iron mine (Bukcheong location) is correctly represented.
 
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1. With all of overlapping clans in Japan, it'd be difficult to select some of the specific daimyo tags. Is there something like CK3's landless characters tab that just shows them all in a list to make it easier to choose ones hidden on the map at game start?

2. Will new clans be able to rise and fall dynamically over time, especially as Japan begins expanding?

3. While we don't have the specifics on how shogunate Japan will work yet, I'm assuming it will be a little similar to how like in the new admin government for ck3, certain families/clans can gain and lose countrol of the country constantly over time. Assuming this isn't a hardcoded system, would it be possible for modders to take these mechanics and apply to another country, or even have it occur dynamically for any country so theoretically any tag could have this family/clan sort of system?
1. There is something already, but I guess it will still need to be improved a bit.
2. In a sense, yes.
3. Everything is completely scripted, so there's absolute freedom.
 
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Is "Shinto-Buddhism" really that much longer of a name compared to "Lutheranism"?
It's a little longer, sure, but there are some country names that are way worse and still remain decently readable.
I just looked into it, it first appeared in the 17th century as a term and seems to allegedly have some negative connotations; so, maybe that's why? Idk I'm not an expert
 
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Beautiful maps! I am obsessed with the extraterritorial clan system, though I have split opinions about it as of now... a few questions:
1- If they're landless, what gives them structure? Is it the pops? If we force pops of a clan out of allegiance, does the clan cease to exist? Because from my former understanding of extraterritorial countries, they were building-based (for example the Hanseatic kontors and the Banking branches) but what forms the core of each clan, until they manage to get landed via advances? Moreover, aren't these daimyos all about owning land, historically? This feels kinda redundant to abstract them away as extraterritorial countries and then as the game progresses, have them "settle down" to become legitimate. I feel like this would have been better represented by something like a nested duchies mechanic similar to CK3.
2- Can I get a close up screenshot of the 3 Ryukuan countries? I can't tell which is which.
3- Slightly unrelated but let's say we manage to form the Ilkhanate as a landed Persian nation from the IO - will all the former subjects become extra-territorial countries similar to the daimyos here?
4 - Are there any other geographic areas where extraterritorial countries show internal division in this game, or just japan? From what I see Hanseatic League is quite the opposite, an extra-territorial country with lots of landed countries as subjects.
 
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Playing as the Shogunate, is it possible to work against the fragmentation of the country?
Can the Shogun use warfare and diplomacy to weaken the clans and strengthen the central government so that, by the time the Sengoku Jidai sets off, it can be more of a thing between the central government and the clans who want to remain independent instead of a chaotic free for all?
The plan is that there will be a way to avoid it or limit it, yes.
 
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Ashio Copper Mines (足尾銅山) in Tochigi should not exist in 1337. Copper ore deposits were only discovered around the middle of the 1500s and a mine was only established in the early 1600s under the Tokugawa. I think it should produce Timber (or Lumber? I don't remember the name of the good). Also, it seems like Ashio is Hills terrain, when it should really be mountains:
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Awa/Tokushima should produce Indigo, though the regions greatest fame for the product comes from the early modern/Tokugawa period, its been cultivated there longer than that.

“Aizome dyeing in Tokushima dates back nearly 800 years, and the prefecture’s location is key to the development of the practice. The Yoshino River that runs through northern Tokushima irrigates the surrounding land, providing an ideal environment for the cultivation of the Japanese indigo plant (Perisicaria tinctoria), the plant from which indigo dye is extracted.”


Indigo is a deep blue dye made from the leaves of the indigo plant. It was a very commonly and widely used dye in medieval and early modern Japan, and around the world. Tokushima han(Awa province, modern-day Tokushima prefecture) was the chief indigo-producing region in early modern Japan, and that most highly regarded for the quality of its product,[1]though other regions are known for indigo production as well.
 
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In regards to Shinto why not call it Shinbutsu-shūgō(syncretism of Buddhas and Kamis)?
Shinto is more recognizable as a name and its association with Japan, and Shinbutsu-shūgō is more a concept than the name of the religion. The name appears regardless in the game inside Shinto though.
 
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