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Tinto Maps #4 Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic Feedback

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Wildrake said:
Smolenskian and Polatskian - definitely Ruthenian (particularly Belarusian), they fall under Smolensk-Polotsk dialect
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ibvfteh said:
Those, who were part of Lithuania Ruthenian and Those under Muscovy Russian.
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I don’t think you can be so straightforward with Smolenskian specifically. Youre dealing with a dialect continuum where Smolenskian could realistically fall on either side (not too unlike the situation with Francoprovencal for example…), and putting it in Ruthenian just because Lithuania went on to control Smolensk doesn’t make sense on its own because it’s a political development that isn’t guaranteed to happen in 1337.
I think Smolenskian should probably be Ruthenian, but I’d like to see texts from the time period in Smolenskian, with Muscovite Russian, Polotskian, and some variety of what would go on to become Ukrainian to compare it to before I can say anything definitive.
 
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purplephoton said:
I don’t think you can be so straightforward with Smolenskian specifically. Youre dealing with a dialect continuum where Smolenskian could realistically fall on either side (not too unlike the situation with Francoprovencal for example…), and putting it in Ruthenian just because Lithuania went on to control Smolensk doesn’t make sense on its own because it’s a political development that isn’t guaranteed to happen in 1337.
I think Smolenskian should probably be Ruthenian, but I’d like to see texts from the time period in Smolenskian, with Muscovite Russian, Polotskian, and some variety of what would go on to become Ukrainian to compare it to before I can say anything definitive.
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Here is why it’s important to know how are languages separated. So as I remember the formation of Russian language began only in 15th-16th centuries, as before principalities had no need for common language except Old Chirch Slavonic. This is at the time when Smolensk was conquered by Muscovy. So in my eyes it makes Smolenskian Russian
 
purplephoton said:
I don’t think you can be so straightforward with Smolenskian specifically. Youre dealing with a dialect continuum where Smolenskian could realistically fall on either side (not too unlike the situation with Francoprovencal for example…), and putting it in Ruthenian just because Lithuania went on to control Smolensk doesn’t make sense on its own because it’s a political development that isn’t guaranteed to happen in 1337.
I think Smolenskian should probably be Ruthenian, but I’d like to see texts from the time period in Smolenskian, with Muscovite Russian, Polotskian, and some variety of what would go on to become Ukrainian to compare it to before I can say anything definitive.
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The main source for the classification of Rus dialects are works of Soviet linguistics like Gorshkova and Zaliznyak
They present the next dialect clusters:
  • Pskovian-Novgorodian dialect
  • Rostovian-Suzdalian dialect (Moscovite in EU terms)
  • Smolenskian-Polotskian dialect
  • Chernihiv-Severian dialects and Ryazanian dialects (can be grouped together as Severian)
  • Halych-Volhynian dialect
  • Kyivan dialect (sometimes grouped with Halych-Volhynian)
I, personally, think that Polesian would be an accurate addition to the list (as in feedback map)

With the written system, the Ruthenian and Russian split is mainly based on the fact that they had different written dialects, one under Lithuanian duchy and other under Russian principalities
 
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ibvfteh said:
Okay Ivan and Johan are the variations of one name, so should every language be united with flavour dialects?

I want to understand where does flavour ends and gameplay consequences begin. As having different languages does influence the game based on Tinto Talks
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1731951974562.png


They already addresed it
 
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Wildrake said:
The main source for the classification of Rus dialects are works of Soviet linguistics like Gorshkova and Zaliznyak
They present the next dialect clusters:
  • Pskovian-Novgorodian dialect
  • Rostovian-Suzdalian dialect (Moscovite in EU terms)
  • Smolenskian-Polotskian dialect
  • Chernihiv-Severian dialects and Ryazanian dialects (can be grouped together as Severian)
  • Halych-Volhynian dialect
  • Kyivan dialect (sometimes grouped with Halych-Volhynian)

With the written system, the Ruthenian and Russian split is mainly based on the fact that they had different written dialects, one under Lithuanian duchy and other under Russian pricncipalities
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Zaliznyak is my favourite researcher in the field. I highly support if dialects will be formed around his research.
 
A possible solution to the Smolensk conundrum might be to have Smolenskian be Ruthenian, but have part of Smolensk's lands be a transitional zone where both Smolenskian and a Russian culture are present.
This map is from 1914 and it has such a zone, though admittedly I don't know the exact political developments that led to this or what this zone looked like in 1337.
1731953225844.png
 
purplephoton said:
A possible solution to the Smolensk conundrum might be to have Smolenskian be Ruthenian, but have part of Smolensk's lands be a transitional zone where both Smolenskian and a Russian culture are present.
This map is from 1914 and it has such a zone, though admittedly I don't know the exact political developments that led to this or what this zone looked like in 1337.
View attachment 1218209
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Smolensk land saw a lot of demographic changes between 1337 and 1914, for example, here is statement Catherine the Great made regarding this region (source: Сборник Русского исторического общества. Том седьмой):
These provinces <Little Russia, Livonia and Finland>, as well as Smolensk, must be brought by the easiest means to the point where they become Russified and stop looking like wolves to the forest
 
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This is a draft of just splitting East Slavic into 3 dialects. Smolenskian being Ruthenian makes Ukrainian look crazy big, would it be better as Russian or Belarusian?

1731961933876.png
 
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SaintDaveUK said:
This is a draft of just splitting East Slavic into 3 dialects. Smolenskian being Ruthenian makes Ukrainian look crazy big, would it be better as Russian or Belarusian?

View attachment 1218272
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Can you try this proposal? Or it is too granular?
Wildrake said:
Zaliznyak
They present the next dialect clusters:
  • Pskovian-Novgorodian dialect
  • Rostovian-Suzdalian dialect (Moscovite in EU terms)
  • Smolenskian-Polotskian dialect
  • Chernihiv-Severian dialects and Ryazanian dialects (can be grouped together as Severian)
  • Halych-Volhynian dialect
  • Kyivan dialect (sometimes grouped with Halych-Volhynian)
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You can create 5 dialects here by joining Kyivan and Halych-Volhynian
 
ibvfteh said:
Can you try this proposal? Or it is too granular?

You can create 5 dialects here by joining Kyivan and Halych-Volhynian
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I fear its too granular since dialects only have cosmetic significance used for different names of rulers and locations. I dont think you can provide these dialects with that content. The only dialect that should be added alongside Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian is Rusyn and, maybe, Novgorodian ( although adding Novgorodian may require research of sources of Old Novgorodian like birch bark documents that could be too complicated task)
 
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Screenshot_2.png

"A dialectal continuum is observed in the adjacent territories of Russia and Belarus. Attempts to draw a boundary between Russian and Belarusian idioms have been made since the 19th century, with scholars proposing various approaches. In addition to linguistic criteria (for example, the presence or absence of consonant [r] hardness-softness pairs), researchers have relied on ethnography (descriptions of appearance, houses) and archaeology (the presumed territory of the Krivichs, who were considered the ancestors of the Belarusians). In the 1914 map, more dialects are classified as Belarusian than in the 1964 atlas, with some dialects in the modern Smolensk region being considered Belarusian. Some are described as transitional between Belarusian and Russian.

In the 1964 map, the boundary between the dialects coincides with the state border. The decision to draw the linguistic boundary in this way was made considering the susceptibility of the dialects in the RSFSR territory to the influence of the literary Russian language.

The continuum also persists in the adjacent territories of Ukraine and Belarus. The Polesian dialects spoken here are called by some scholars as transitional between Belarusian and Ukrainian.

No continuum is observed between the Ukrainian and Russian languages. Scholars attribute its absence to the division of the populations of the Chernigov and Ryazan principalities during the period of feudal fragmentation." (from article of linguist Margarita Spiricheva)

As you see classifying Smolenskian is quite tricky and can be included either into Russian or Ruthenian depending on your criteria. Although these two languages should already exist as East Slavic diverged into them around beginning of EU5 timeline
Screenshot_1.png
 
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SaintDaveUK said:
Smolenskian as Belarusian

View attachment 1218284
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I don't hate it but it feels a little weird to have Smolenskian extend all the way into the Oka region (possibly Karachev but especially Novosil).
While those lands were ruled by Chernihiv for at least part of their history, I wouldn't want to make them Severian either.
I think Ryazanian might be the best option for everything east of the Rylsk-Karachev-Mosalsk line. The land around the Oka is part of the Kursk-Oryol dialect group today, which transitions into what I'd label in-game as "Smolenskian" around Karachev and into Ryazanian roughly between Serpukhov, Kolomna, and Yelets. While in an ideal world, we'd have an "Okan" culture to represent the feudal duchies that split off from Chernihiv before 1337, I'm not sure if it's a good or bad decision in-game, and it might be simpler to just stick it with Ryazanian.

It's also really weird seeing Belarusian extend all the way to Kyiv and Zhytomyr. Unfortunately I think that's an issue with Polesian in general, which is a dialect of Ukrainian that extends into southwestern Belarus, and which you guys have extended all the way to Minsk (which is why in my suggestion from earlier had a Black Ruthenian culture around Slonim and a possible White Ruthenian culture around Babruysk - Polesian is not really supposed to be a Belarusian dialect and I was trying to find a good culture to put in place of the Belarusian half of it.
 
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SaintDaveUK said:
Smolenskian as Belarusian

View attachment 1218284
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Ukrainian and Belarussian should be one big Ruthenian. Lithuanians upheld Ruthenian as unfied language (and took effort to unify even more) for centuries after their conquest. From 14th to 16th century Ukrainian and Belarussian were virtually the same. Currently it is believed that Belarussian significantly diverged from Ruthenian arround 18th century (4 centuries after the game start) after Commonwealth became more Polish and after Ruthenian fell out of favor and was used less and less.

At the same time, Finnic should not be one big dialect when for centuries (cince 8th-10th century) Estonian and Finnish have had significant differences and most modern day differences were adopted right before or after Crusades (13th century) and when for more than a millenium Southern Estonian and less than a millenium Livonian have excisted separate from the rest of the Finnic languages.
 
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SaintDaveUK said:
How viable is the Novegradian conlang project for Novgorodian dialect names?

Grammar of the Novegradian Language — Names

www.veche.net www.veche.net
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This is a theoretical language, which is based off the historical Novgorodian language but different from it in important ways, and it would therefore be inappropriate to use. This includes names since they are subject to the same fictional sound changes everything else is. I see no reason why a Novgorodian dialect should exist in-game. It should just be Russian.
 
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