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Tinto Talks #40 - 4th of December 2024

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday when we talk more about our upcoming top secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will go into details about the government reforms and look into some specific ones that you may use or not.

Representing everything from ancient traditions to progressive amendments, Government Reforms outline the shape of governance in a country. Each one is unique, but they often give powerful trade-offs or open up unique play styles.

At the start of the game, countries are only allowed 2 government reforms, but in every Age there is at least one advance that unlocks another slot for reforms. Some specific reforms also add another slot, so they are essentially “free” for that country. On average in the final Age of the game, a country may have 7 or 8 reforms.

Common Government Reforms that are available to everyone are likely to have an Age requirement, spreading out their availability over the game.

Some reforms are major reforms, and a country may not have more than one major reform at the same time.

There will be a diverse selection of reforms in each age, with about 5 common new ones added each age, and another 2 per government type. The unique ones are far more plentiful, and diverse, with over 150 currently in the game.

In the User Interface, the government reforms exist in the Crown’s part of the Estates Screen, as the Crown does not really have any estate privileges…

french_estates.png
France can have 3 reforms, but are the current ones actually beneficial?



Removing a Government Reform currently costs 20 stability, which is a bit cheap, but that may change. Some reforms can not be removed at will though, and are locked until specific circumstances allow them to be removed.

Adding a new reform does not have a cost, but it takes up to 2 years before the benefits are fully implemented.



Common Reforms
Here are some examples of early government reforms that many nations have access to from the start.

Religious Tolerance
For when your country is populated by people who practice different beliefs and confessions. Therefore, it would be prudent to govern in a tolerant manner with them, ensuring their support for the government.

religious_tolerance.png

It will make your country a bit more communal though..

Diplomatic Traditions
From time immemorial our people have favored the word above the sword, giving us the ability to forge lasting relationships with our allies and friends and a reputation as honest and loyal.

diplomatic_traditions.png

For certain types of countries, this is rather important..


Military Order
This is a major reform that catholic theocracies have access to. It is one of the types of reforms that truly defines a country.

The Military Orders were created in the Middle Ages as a militant body of the Catholic Church. Its members are both warriors and monks who take religious vows and are destined to defend and expand Christianity.

military_order.png

Military Sponsorships are vitally important to a Holy Order!



Unique Government Reforms
So let's take a look at some of the more unique government reforms that we have in the game right now.

Family Sagas
This is a unique reform that anyone with the primary culture of Icelandic can get, which both Iceland and Greenland starts with.

Our ancient sagas passed orally through the generations tell of adventurous expeditions to a distant and wild land over the western sea. Perhaps one day we may follow in the footsteps of our old compatriots.

family_sagas.png

If only they had the population to exploit it..

Three Departments
This is available to any country that has Chinese or Korean as their court language.

The Three Departments System originates from the ancient Chinese empires and is the primary administrative structure of the state. All departments focus on several aspects of the process of drafting, establishing and revisiting state policies.

three_departments.png

If you want laws changed, this is the reform to have..

Magna Carta
This is a unique reform that England starts with, and is also possible for any country with the English primary culture, or if their overlord has this reform.

The 'Great Charter' is a constitutional law that distributes power away from the monarch and towards the barons. First signed in 1215, it is also one of the earliest documents to enshrine the idea of civil liberties, such as the right to a fair trial, and protection against illegal imprisonment.

magna_carta.png

It gives some power to the nobility, and shapes the country towards certain ideals.


Stay tuned, as next week we will look into all the different types of Parliaments, and how you interact with them...
 
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Cool, internally how do you guys decide what should be a policy and what should be a government reform?

If its "a OR b" its a policy for a law.
 
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In EU4 you can't directly change an estate privilege, you need to first remove it and then add the other privilege you want to have. Is this the same for gov reforms and privileges in Caesar: The Project, or now you can directly change the privilege in one click, like how gov reforms work in EU4?
 
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A bit underwhelming, I was expecting to see quite a few more.

BUT super HYPED to finally learn about parliaments! One of the features I have been most hyped about. Please make it cool and fun and interactive and not just a cheese button you press to get modifiers like in EU4

I can't guarantee that it will be your dreams, but its a good system.
 
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The very project is Iceland arguably? Or even Greenland, although that had issues

I won't click X, but I do disagree that is the intention. I think to me and everyone else in the forum, it is clear this reform is motivated by the Vinland Project. Heck, SaintDave basically just confirmed it to me, if his comment on "cultural memory of landing in the Americas" is anything to go by.
 
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Any crippling "reforms" for PLC?

By the way - can you tell how PLC is going to work with Casimir III and no union with Lithuania at the start of the game? An event? And how the game is going to simulate transition to elective monarchy if dynasty will keep being strong?
 
And yet they did not do much exploration or colonization in the game's period, so why give them a bunch of bonuses for that?
Because it represents the fact they have cultural memory of Vinland, active contact with Greenland and thus they are the closest to the Americas among Western Eurasians in 1337 and are one of the most actively ocean-faring population in Europe.
 
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This looks like a very nice system, but I'm again a bit disappointed with the fact that (except for the noble power bit on the England unique reform), there's no clear drawback at the moment to these - you're sort of choosing which benefits to have when picking reforms, and the consequences are near nonexistent. I would much prefer if this was a balancing act and the choices you make when reforming your country can backfire down the line, or hinder you in other areas. I will say, some bonuses look like a step in the right direction with the benefits not being just +number, but instead allowing clergy as leaders, allowing military sponsorships, etc.
More knowledgeable people here could probably elaborate better than me, but I hope I got my point across.

Someone in the beginning of the thread suggested choosing/changing a reform should negatively impact Estates' Satisfaction, which seems an interesting idea.

But maybe the reforms themselves should also have negative modifiers.
 
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I won't click X, but I do disagree that is the intention. I think to me and everyone else in the forum it is clear this reform is motivated by the Vinland Project. Heck, SaintDave basically just confirmed it to me, if his comment on "cultural memory of landing in the Americas" is anything to go by.
We don't know why Vinland failed, but it doesn't matter. The point is the Icelanders are the product of oversea colonization from Norway/Scottish Isles, have themselves engaged in oversea colonization, both failed(Vinland) and semi-successful(Greenland) and have kept trading with their Greenlandic cousins for 3 centuries up to the game start.

To me that's more than enough of a justification to let them explore more if they have the resources.
 
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This looks like a very nice system, but I'm again a bit disappointed with the fact that (except for the noble power bit on the England unique reform), there's no clear drawback at the moment to these - you're sort of choosing which benefits to have when picking reforms, and the consequences are near nonexistent. I would much prefer if this was a balancing act and the choices you make when reforming your country can backfire down the line, or hinder you in other areas. I will say, some bonuses look like a step in the right direction with the benefits not being just +number, but instead allowing clergy as leaders, allowing military sponsorships, etc.
More knowledgeable people here could probably elaborate better than me, but I hope I got my point across.
100% agree. I feel like decisions need to hurt a little as well and shouldn't be a pure dopamine kick.
 
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Because it represents the fact they have cultural memory of Vinland, active contact with Greenland and thus they are the closest to the Americas among Western Eurasians in 1337 and are one of the most actively ocean-faring population in Europe.
Being the closest to the Americas is already its own bonus, and certainly isn't justification for another one when it wasn't the Icelandic people who historically colonized the Americas in the Early Modern age. And having this "cultural memory" that everyone keeps saying, did not result in Iceland launching major exploration/colonization missions in this period either.
 
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Any crippling "reforms" for PLC?

By the way - can you tell how PLC is going to work with Casimir III and no union with Lithuania at the start of the game? An event? And how the game is going to simulate transition to elective monarchy if dynasty will keep being strong?
I think next week when we'll learn more about parliaments we'll learn more about how to cripple PLC
 
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Just wondering, for Castille, how are you going to implement the Basque "Fueros"? Is it going to be through a government reform described in this TT? Specially because of the weird interplay between being part of a bigger country but at the same time having the privilege of not giving manpower to castille or not having to obey laws that went against their traditions ("Foru Pasea")
We're not being able to get into that level of regional governance with so much granularity, sorry. And I'm telling you this from the perspective of someone who wrote a thesis chapter about the situation and development of municipal and regional 'fueros' in the Crown of Castile from 1252 to 1284, and who would love to have that level of granularity portrayed somehow. ;)
 
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This looks like a very nice system, but I'm again a bit disappointed with the fact that (except for the noble power bit on the England unique reform), there's no clear drawback at the moment to these - you're sort of choosing which benefits to have when picking reforms, and the consequences are near nonexistent. I would much prefer if this was a balancing act and the choices you make when reforming your country can backfire down the line, or hinder you in other areas. I will say, some bonuses look like a step in the right direction with the benefits not being just +number, but instead allowing clergy as leaders, allowing military sponsorships, etc.
More knowledgeable people here could probably elaborate better than me, but I hope I got my point across.
True, I do feel that in EU4 (or any other paradox gsg), as time goes on you just stack buffs to become ridiculously strong, while the historic negative consequences of these same actions are overlooked. There should be disadvantages unique to every unique advantage.
 
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I'm not really satisfied with this implementation, specifically having reforms being unlocked by age with slots gained through advances. One of the things I liked about the addition of Government Reforms in Eu4 was that they allowed for some representation of the development of the modern state. Moving away from these reforms appearing in specific categories in a specific order is probably a move in the right direction (though I actually enjoyed this aspect of how they worked from a gameplay perspective). But having the rate at which you unlock new reforms tied to Crown Land and average autonomy was a rather clever way to include a lot of the concepts behind what drove the development of more complex state structures. This implementation makes government reforms just a consequence of technological development, which I find significantly less compelling.
 
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We don't know why Vinland failed, but it doesn't matter. The point is the Icelanders are the product of oversea colonization from Norway/Scottish Isles, have themselves engaged in oversea colonization, both failed(Vinland) and semi-successful(Greenland) and have kept trading with their Greenlandic cousins for 3 centuries up to the game start.

To me that's more than enough of a justification to let them explore more if they have the resources.

With all due respect, then let them follow the relevant technological paths like everyone else. My entire point is that they are far from the only European people, or world people for that matter, that can claim to have a history of ocean-hopping. You can ask the Bretons and their cousins in northern Galicia all about it. They didn't have much else left to run into when being pushed out of their lands but the "western seas". The difference is that they headed south, not northwest.

I repeat, the only benefit I would find acceptable, is some kind of advantange in colonising "Artic" colonies. And even then, only hygienic. But not a full blown, generalised, exploration and settling bonus.
 
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Being the closest to the Americas is already its own bonus, and certainly isn't justification for another one when it wasn't the Icelandic people who historically colonized the Americas in the Early Modern age. And having this "cultural memory" that everyone keeps saying, did not result in Iceland launching major exploration/colonization missions in this period either.
They had 20-30 times fewer people than the smallest colonial powers and were decimated by the plagues that, eventually, hit the island. This "it didn't happen historically thus it shouldn't happen in the game" is not a good argument, because there is no indication this modifier lets the AI or any random player just immediately colonize Newfoundland or do the kind of things you can do in EU4.

Do you think Iceland should have 0 advantage in terms of being able to explore uncharted lands? As in they should only be able to do it when everyone else is?
 
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