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Tinto Talks #40 - 4th of December 2024

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday when we talk more about our upcoming top secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will go into details about the government reforms and look into some specific ones that you may use or not.

Representing everything from ancient traditions to progressive amendments, Government Reforms outline the shape of governance in a country. Each one is unique, but they often give powerful trade-offs or open up unique play styles.

At the start of the game, countries are only allowed 2 government reforms, but in every Age there is at least one advance that unlocks another slot for reforms. Some specific reforms also add another slot, so they are essentially “free” for that country. On average in the final Age of the game, a country may have 7 or 8 reforms.

Common Government Reforms that are available to everyone are likely to have an Age requirement, spreading out their availability over the game.

Some reforms are major reforms, and a country may not have more than one major reform at the same time.

There will be a diverse selection of reforms in each age, with about 5 common new ones added each age, and another 2 per government type. The unique ones are far more plentiful, and diverse, with over 150 currently in the game.

In the User Interface, the government reforms exist in the Crown’s part of the Estates Screen, as the Crown does not really have any estate privileges…

french_estates.png
France can have 3 reforms, but are the current ones actually beneficial?



Removing a Government Reform currently costs 20 stability, which is a bit cheap, but that may change. Some reforms can not be removed at will though, and are locked until specific circumstances allow them to be removed.

Adding a new reform does not have a cost, but it takes up to 2 years before the benefits are fully implemented.



Common Reforms
Here are some examples of early government reforms that many nations have access to from the start.

Religious Tolerance
For when your country is populated by people who practice different beliefs and confessions. Therefore, it would be prudent to govern in a tolerant manner with them, ensuring their support for the government.

religious_tolerance.png

It will make your country a bit more communal though..

Diplomatic Traditions
From time immemorial our people have favored the word above the sword, giving us the ability to forge lasting relationships with our allies and friends and a reputation as honest and loyal.

diplomatic_traditions.png

For certain types of countries, this is rather important..


Military Order
This is a major reform that catholic theocracies have access to. It is one of the types of reforms that truly defines a country.

The Military Orders were created in the Middle Ages as a militant body of the Catholic Church. Its members are both warriors and monks who take religious vows and are destined to defend and expand Christianity.

military_order.png

Military Sponsorships are vitally important to a Holy Order!



Unique Government Reforms
So let's take a look at some of the more unique government reforms that we have in the game right now.

Family Sagas
This is a unique reform that anyone with the primary culture of Icelandic can get, which both Iceland and Greenland starts with.

Our ancient sagas passed orally through the generations tell of adventurous expeditions to a distant and wild land over the western sea. Perhaps one day we may follow in the footsteps of our old compatriots.

family_sagas.png

If only they had the population to exploit it..

Three Departments
This is available to any country that has Chinese or Korean as their court language.

The Three Departments System originates from the ancient Chinese empires and is the primary administrative structure of the state. All departments focus on several aspects of the process of drafting, establishing and revisiting state policies.

three_departments.png

If you want laws changed, this is the reform to have..

Magna Carta
This is a unique reform that England starts with, and is also possible for any country with the English primary culture, or if their overlord has this reform.

The 'Great Charter' is a constitutional law that distributes power away from the monarch and towards the barons. First signed in 1215, it is also one of the earliest documents to enshrine the idea of civil liberties, such as the right to a fair trial, and protection against illegal imprisonment.

magna_carta.png

It gives some power to the nobility, and shapes the country towards certain ideals.


Stay tuned, as next week we will look into all the different types of Parliaments, and how you interact with them...
 
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I notice there's another blue UI element below the modifiers on a few of the reforms. What's in that, is it a description, flavour text, or the cost?
 
Can Estates force a Reform on me if they are unhappy and powerfull enough?
Like if i am a weak absolutist king, and the nobles want more freedoms.

Or if cleregy hates the "religious tolerance" reform, and would much rather have the opposite.

Yes that's what I was thinking.
For the reform gameplay to be deep and rewarding, it has to interact with the estates and the estates have to interact with the government. At least until you discover absolutism.
Of course that is quite difficult to design and probably too ambitious
 
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Also not a fan of the Family Sagas reform. Even though they may lack the population for large colonization efforts, it just seems like it'll result in a level of exploration and colonization by Iceland culture countries in every campaign that simply didn't happen historically in the game's period. Not saying that they didn't have any explorers, but let's be honest, most of the exploration of the world in the Early Modern Age was done by Iberians or those employed by the Iberians, and then later the English, Dutch, and French. Why does the Icelandic culture have such significant bonuses that will at least put them on par with those countries, if not much better?

Exploration in PC is not like it is in EUIV. Having an explorer available doesn't mean you can just send them off on as many exploration journeys as you want, look at the exploration dev diary; in order to send an exploration mission you have to provide it with money upfront, and a significant amount of sailors/manpower, things which are prohibitively expensive for Greenland and Iceland. Furthermore you then have to pay an upkeep cost, and there's a chance the mission will perish at sea and you won't get any return either.

If Greenland or Iceland manage to get together the money and manpower necessary, something which even Portugal will struggle with at the start date, why shouldn't they have a slight advantage to exploration? Unlike everyone else in Europe, they have surviving accounts of the existence of the Americas and how to get there that are widely diseminated amongst their people.
 
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If Greenland or Iceland manage to get together the money and manpower necessary, something which even Portugal will struggle with at the start date, why shouldn't they have a slight advantage to exploration? Unlike everyone else in Europe, they have surviving accounts of the existence of the Americas and how to get there that are widely diseminated amongst their people.

Because accounts of unproductive voyages from your ancestors don't yield the same economic and technological effects on your boat trips to America as investing in astrolabes, lateen sails, fortified port outposts, trade networks, cartography advances, universities, navigation schools and generations of invested monarchs do.

This is why Sete kept pointing out that it seemed to them that this translated into downplaying Portuguese advancements and bravery; because the sagas are being elevated into the same, or even greater, boon to a legacy of exploration as a full century of countless adventurers and scholars risking the dangers of the West African coast and the Atlantic.
 
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Because accounts of unproductive voyages from your ancestors don't yield the same economic and technological effects on your boat trips to America as investing in astrolabes, lateen sails, fortified port outposts, trade networks, cartography advances, universities, navigation schools and generations of invested monarchs do.

This is why Sete kept pointing out that it seemed to them that this translated into downplaying Portuguese advancements; because the sagas are being elevated into the same, or even greater, boon to a legacy of exploration as a full century of countless adventurers and scholars risking the dangers of the West African coast and the Atlantic.

I dont understand that argument.

How is it downplaying Portugal to say that Iceland and Greenland had the knowledge but they dont have the economic or tech to actually pull it off.
And you would need the advances of Portugal and Spain and their economic muscle to actually be able to colonize properly.

Isnt it more downplaying to suggest that the norse who had already had a failed colony in Vinland dont have the knowledge to reach and make a colony?

Also how do you know its a greater boon? do we know what Portugal gets in unique advances and reforms?
 
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Because accounts of unproductive voyages from your ancestors don't yield the same economic and technological effects on your boat trips to America as investing in astrolabes, lateen sails, fortified port outposts, trade networks, cartography advances, universities, navigation schools and generations of invested monarchs do.

This is why Sete kept pointing out that it seemed to them that this translated into downplaying Portuguese advancements and bravery; because the sagas are being elevated into the same, or even greater, boon to a legacy of exploration as a full century of countless adventurers and scholars risking the dangers of the West African coast and the Atlantic.
Perhaps we're reading different comments, but that is not what they said:
I don't see any issue with the bonus to colonization. It's a game and it will have cultural references for the flavour.

That one makes sense. In 1337 they won't have the technology or know how to reach brazil, but if a player wants to invest on the colonization game it has that "cultural bonus" for a what if.

Same thing with my beloved Portugal.

Portugal didn't have that much of exploration culture in 1337 because it was previously engaged on a reconquista and fights for self determination. It's starting bonus should reflect that.
But we know there will be limits to prevent Iceland to rush brazil. That much is certain. If anything this will give them limited ability to colonize newfoundland at great cost. I know gamers gonna game, but we have to trust the artificial limits on tech and range in game.
Here I am saying Iceland bonus is OK but hey why read.
People in the discussion who were dismissing the Portuguese innovations in shipbuilding and the like seemed to be what they were talking about, not that the Icelanders and Greenlanders got a modifier to allow them to explore early. If I'm misrepresenting you, @Sete, please do let me know!

And again, this isn't just voyages from their ancestors. They were still making the voyage to America even past the startdate of the game. If tales were the only thing there, maybe I'd agree with you, but they are not. Greenlanders were harvesting wood from Newfoundland even into the 14th century. The fact that they could still navigate that is good evidence that they still had the skills required.
 
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Sounds like some thing to look at when we add more content to Flanders.
Talking about similar documents in the Low Countries, the Duchy of Brabant would see the introduction of the Joyous Entry in 1356, which is early in the game's time frame and imposed limits on the powers of the duke, who subsequently had to get the consent of the municipalities for certain actions.
 
I dont understand that argument.

How is it downplaying Portugal to say that Iceland and Greenland had the knowledge but they dont have the economic or tech to actually pull it off.
And you would need the advances of Portugal and Spain and their economic muscle to actually be able to colonize properly.

It's not my argument, it's Sete's. But we know its a greater boon because Im sure it will be expected Portugal will have to go through the tech tree anyway to unlock exploration and invitation of settlers, because it's only natural and proper.

"Also how do you know its a greater boon? do we know what Portugal gets in unique advances and reforms?"

We don't know if Portugal would get it, but I wouldn't agree with giving Portugal the ability automaticaly, either. Portugal should go through the tech-tree, like everybody else. You're gonna find me to be extremely consistent on that front. No free abilities for anyone on exploration.

"Isnt it more downplaying to suggest that the norse who had already had a failed colony in Vinland dont have the knowledge to reach and make a colony?"

Honestly, I don't understand THIS argument. If you fail at something, why should you be acknowledged to be better at it than the average tag? :confused: Doesn't that ring even a little bit contradictory?

But I'll put that aside for the moment. No, it's not downplaying, it's simply acknowledging that there was no special, innate advantage towards exploration of the Americas from them over everyone else, much less one that should automatically unlock them the ability. They didn't build Navigation schools before everyone else, they didn't develop lateen sails and they didn't do the work to charting the new lands as consistent routes. Multiple nations have spotted new coasts by just virtue of venturing out to fish or running away from invaders. Hell, Portuguese fishermen were spotting the Azores island, but it wasn't until a dedicated mission to settle them ocurred that we all acknowledge that the islands were 'discovered'.

It just so happens that the lands in this case are the same that Columbus and Cabral and Americo went on to confirm to everyone "Hey, there's actually a really gigantic continent here. Boy, I wonder how no one realised it by now?"

Exploration is far more than just spotting new lands, it's also documenting them, marking them, writing down routes, etc. This isn't a strength not being acknowledged in the Icelandish, it's a heroic tale being converted into a technological advancement.

This is why me and another user suggested converting "Family Sagas" into a different, but still related benefit.
 
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Perhaps we're reading different comments, but that is not what they said:

I'm referring to this.

One thing that annoys me in this whole discourse.

Iceland Sagas: Implies that it was an heroic endeavour, a man over nature feat.

Iberians: They were in the right place.

Its just so demeaning. Implying they have no agency and are just reacting to the world around them and doing things by chance and dumb luck, their achievements are never theirs like on the Sagas, but just whims of circumstance.

You see the same thing with the "Fall of Constatinopole caused the Portuguese Exploration" myth. Again it robs a whole people of their agency and effort.

Please stop with this.
 
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Honestly, I don't understand THIS argument. If you fail at something, why should you be acknowledged to be better at it than the average tag? :confused: Doesn't that ring even a little bit contradictory?

Personally i dont consider unlocking an ability to mean "better than"

Better imho would be range, exploration bonusses, ship survival bonusses, bonusses to colonies etc. and i would suspect that portugal has many more of these than iceland. aswell as the population and economy to actually make colonies.
 
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I'm referring to this.
You decided not to quote the latter half of it, where they make it clear that they are not talking about the modifier causing this double standard, and that they think it should stay, which I even quoted in the response to you.
 
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Personally i dont consider unlocking an ability to mean "better than"

Better imho would be range, exploration bonusses, ship survival bonusses, bonusses to colonies etc. and i would suspect that portugal has many more of these than iceland. aswell as the population and economy to actually make colonies.

I'll be more precise, then; it's giving them an ability 100-150 years before everyone else in the tech tree, including the major pioneers of it. To me that implies the belief they should have a leg-up over tech-ready tags on being able to explore.

That's a boon, no matter how you look at it. You get something for free that everyone else has to spend resources on for 20% of a competitive game's runtime.
 
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You probably already thought about it, but if you haven't, I have a suggestion. For the Turkic states and the steppe horde states, the Genghis Khan laws, or YASSA, should be evaluated. You can perhaps consider this within the scope of the law, but I think it should be considered as a governmental reform. Because it is a fact that the states that ruled in that region in the following centuries also implemented it by reforming it. For example The Ottomans internalized these laws and used them, naming them "Kanun-i Kadim" (Kanun-i Kadim), a law whose beginnings lie in the depths of the past.
 
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I'll be more precise, then; it's giving them an ability 100-150 years before everyone else in the tech tree, including the major pioneers of it. To me that implies the belief they should have a leg-up over tech-ready tags on being able to explore.

That's a boon, no matter how you look at it. You get something for free that everyone else has to spend resources on for 20% of a competitive game's runtime.
Because they got there 300 years prior and has continued going there since : https://sacred-texts.com/neu/nda/nda09.htm
 
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Because they got there 300 years prior and has continued going there since : https://sacred-texts.com/neu/nda/nda09.htm

And for that, they should be given the automatic ability to keep exploring and settle other places? Why can't that just be modelled by giving them game-start knowledge of the Canadian coast?

And then make Family Sagas give a more appropriate benefit, related to culture, literacy, sailing or ability to settle artic lands. Something they can make better and more appropriate use of.
 
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