Tinto Talks #40 - 4th of December 2024

[Tritium666]

View attachment 1226215

Nooooo you can't historically represent the fact that they colonised greenland and newfoundland!!! You can't represent the exploratory voyages that we KNOW they did. You can't represent the fact that they maintained the greenland colony and visited vinland during the timeframe of the game!

History is ahistorical!

I don't want iceland taking over all of canada!
oh.. they won't be able to easily? then, uhh, just take away their ability to. No challenges allowed!

Iberia was uniquely set up to colonise the americas!
They're closer than the rest of europe (ignore that greenland is closer)
They've got a naval and shipbuilding history (ignore that the nordic's naval experience is much longer and more intense)
Muh reconquista (ignore that this happens 100+ years after game start)

ONLY MY COUNTRY MUST BE REPRESENTED WITH COOL STUFF WE DID!!!

 

[Inzano]

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday when we talk more about our upcoming top secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will go into details about the government reforms and look into some specific ones that you may use or not.

Representing everything from ancient traditions to progressive amendments, Government Reforms outline the shape of governance in a country. Each one is unique, but they often give powerful trade-offs or open up unique play styles.

At the start of the game, countries are only allowed 2 government reforms, but in every Age there is at least one advance that unlocks another slot for reforms. Some specific reforms also add another slot, so they are essentially “free” for that country. On average in the final Age of the game, a country may have 7 or 8 reforms.

Common Government Reforms that are available to everyone are likely to have an Age requirement, spreading out their availability over the game.

Some reforms are major reforms, and a country may not have more than one major reform at the same time.

There will be a diverse selection of reforms in each age, with about 5 common new ones added each age, and another 2 per government type. The unique ones are far more plentiful, and diverse, with over 150 currently in the game.

In the User Interface, the government reforms exist in the Crown’s part of the Estates Screen, as the Crown does not really have any estate privileges…

View attachment 1226072France can have 3 reforms, but are the current ones actually beneficial?


Removing a Government Reform currently costs 20 stability, which is a bit cheap, but that may change. Some reforms can not be removed at will though, and are locked until specific circumstances allow them to be removed.

Adding a new reform does not have a cost, but it takes up to 2 years before the benefits are fully implemented.



Common Reforms
Here are some examples of early government reforms that many nations have access to from the start.

Religious Tolerance
For when your country is populated by people who practice different beliefs and confessions. Therefore, it would be prudent to govern in a tolerant manner with them, ensuring their support for the government.

View attachment 1226073
It will make your country a bit more communal though..

Diplomatic Traditions
From time immemorial our people have favored the word above the sword, giving us the ability to forge lasting relationships with our allies and friends and a reputation as honest and loyal.

View attachment 1226074
For certain types of countries, this is rather important..


Military Order
This is a major reform that catholic theocracies have access to. It is one of the types of reforms that truly defines a country.

The Military Orders were created in the Middle Ages as a militant body of the Catholic Church. Its members are both warriors and monks who take religious vows and are destined to defend and expand Christianity.

View attachment 1226075
Military Sponsorships are vitally important to a Holy Order!



Unique Government Reforms
So let's take a look at some of the more unique government reforms that we have in the game right now.

Family Sagas
This is a unique reform that anyone with the primary culture of Icelandic can get, which both Iceland and Greenland starts with.

Our ancient sagas passed orally through the generations tell of adventurous expeditions to a distant and wild land over the western sea. Perhaps one day we may follow in the footsteps of our old compatriots.

View attachment 1226076
If only they had the population to exploit it..

Three Departments
This is available to any country that has Chinese or Korean as their court language.

The Three Departments System originates from the ancient Chinese empires and is the primary administrative structure of the state. All departments focus on several aspects of the process of drafting, establishing and revisiting state policies.

View attachment 1226077
If you want laws changed, this is the reform to have..

Magna Carta
This is a unique reform that England starts with, and is also possible for any country with the English primary culture, or if their overlord has this reform.

The 'Great Charter' is a constitutional law that distributes power away from the monarch and towards the barons. First signed in 1215, it is also one of the earliest documents to enshrine the idea of civil liberties, such as the right to a fair trial, and protection against illegal imprisonment.

View attachment 1226078
It gives some power to the nobility, and shapes the country towards certain ideals.


Stay tuned, as next week we will look into all the different types of Parliaments, and how you interact with them...

For Slovenian countires could be unique government reform "The Ducal Inauguration" which would allow for government reform for an elective monarchy.

 

[Sete]

That's what got the Portuguese around Africa (and potentially to Brazil before Columbus) not what sparked the colonisation of the Americas. That process was the end of decades of dedicated effort toward the end of improved sailing techniques and technology. The arrival of the Spanish to the Caribbean was, at best, an almighty fluke as was the conquest of the Mexica


That said I don't think people are understanding how this is Iceland setup is going to work in game. You're going to have player Iceland rushing the new world every single game and that's going to warp the optimal play for the British Isles and Scandinavia

Gameplay is already warped by how players know the Americas exist even though the AI doesn't and this is going to make that worse a full century earlier

But we know there will be limits to prevent Iceland to rush brazil. That much is certain. If anything this will give them limited ability to colonize newfoundland at great cost. I know gamers gonna game, but we have to trust the artificial limits on tech and range in game.

 

[jackthesnack123]

Sure, if you post a list of other European countries who have a cultural memory of reaching the Americas in 1337 I'll add the same modifier to them

Arnt there oral stories from the basque culture about them reaching the newfoundland fishing area in Canada(forgot the name of the spot but its kinda like the doggerland fishing area in the north sea). Most people who believe the stories wouldnt claim they made it there in 1337 but alot will say by the 1420's basque fisherman were already venturing out there. I think I even remember reading the the Britons of Brittany(a rival fishing culture) heard these rumors too after hearing reports of the huge catches the basque were making and eventually followed them there.

 

[Sete]

Nooooo you can't historically represent the fact that they colonised greenland and newfoundland!!! You can't represent the exploratory voyages that we KNOW they did. You can't represent the fact that they maintained the greenland colony and visited vinland during the timeframe of the game!

History is ahistorical!

I don't want iceland taking over all of canada!
oh.. they won't be able to easily? then, uhh, just take away their ability to. No challenges allowed!

Iberia was uniquely set up to colonise the americas!
They're closer than the rest of europe (ignore that greenland is closer)
They've got a naval and shipbuilding history (ignore that the nordic's naval experience is much longer and more intense)
Muh reconquista (ignore that this happens 100+ years after game start)

ONLY MY COUNTRY MUST BE REPRESENTED WITH COOL STUFF WE DID!!!

Here I am saying Iceland bonus is OK but hey why read.

 

[Thrudgelmir2333]

Here I am saying Iceland bonus is OK but hey why read.

And I was just arguing to change its nature, focus more on helping them colonise artic lands and not explore the entire American seaboard before Columbus and Cabral lol

But damn if that will stop me from getting dozens of Xs from these totally chill bros

 

[Monty is staring at me]

I don't understand why the religious tolerance reform increases communalism though. Wouldn't religious tolerance be a sign of more individualistic societies? I guess you can argue that religious minorities would be allowed to form communities more, but that's arguably at the cost of the majority community.

 

[Sete]

I don't understand why the religious tolerance reform increases communalism though. Wouldn't religious tolerance be a sign of more individualistic societies? I guess you can argue that religious minorities would be allowed to form communities more, but that's arguably at the cost of the majority community.

I would say it's because part of the community is not shunned or persecuted?

 

[Kvesir]

That's what got the Portuguese around Africa (and potentially to Brazil before Columbus) not what sparked the colonisation of the Americas. That process was the end of decades of dedicated effort toward the end of improved sailing techniques and technology. The arrival of the Spanish to the Caribbean was, at best, an almighty fluke as was the conquest of the Mexica


That said I don't think people are understanding how this is Iceland setup is going to work in game. You're going to have player Iceland rushing the new world every single game and that's going to warp the optimal play for the British Isles and Scandinavia

Gameplay is already warped by how players know the Americas exist even though the AI doesn't and this is going to make that worse a full century earlier

The player Iceland starts as a vassal of Norway. Greenland will probably also not be independent.

 

[LordThanatos]

And I was just arguing to change its nature, focus more on helping them colonise artic lands and not explore the entire American seaboard before Columbus and Cabral lol

But you've already said their colonial efforts failed:

Why, if their colonial efforts failed?

Why should they get a bonus to that, rather than the exploration they still actively had the skills for in the 14th century? (I mean I'd argue that it was out of their control that their colonies died, but whether they should have a bonus to it is something I'd probably also disagree with.)

I'd also argue that if they got a bonus to colonization, L'Anse aux Meadows is not arctic, anyway, and you'll notice if looking at the locations of the Eastern and Western settlements on a climate map that they happen to fall in some of the only locations on the landmass with a nonpolar climate - which was even warmer when first settled. The climate changing during the little ice age is one of the most common theories for the abandonment of the settlements.

And as has been explained, they cannot just explore the American seaboard without first managing to survive and improve their dire situation. It would take some skill or luck to do it.

 

[Johan]

maybe some reforms should have multiple levels?

I think tax collection can be levelled up by reforms. At first, only some taxes were paid to the crown but the rest to nobles but with more and more reforms, more of those taxes come to you even without high control.

Plenty of laws and advances that improve tax collection

 

[tpapp157]

I would say it's because part of the community is not shunned or persecuted?

Nah. In Communalism, by definition you are sacrificing your individuality to conform to the identity of the community. Minority groups in Communalist cultures (and those that deviate from conformity in general) are not "part of the community" to be accepted. They are "others" to be excluded and expelled.

 

[Wildrake]

Does having feudal vassals (like France does) increase the amount of power held by Nobles? Having a noble estate loosely affected by your vassals (like a daimyo being tied to a noble estate in Japan) would be a great step forward.

 

[Rickyf92]

It seems to me that some players still cannot separate EU4 and EU5.

Wait, this isn't the latest EU4 dev diary?

 

[Eraneir]

I don't understand why the religious tolerance reform increases communalism though. Wouldn't religious tolerance be a sign of more individualistic societies? I guess you can argue that religious minorities would be allowed to form communities more, but that's arguably at the cost of the majority community.

Cause historically "religious tolerance" is not a right of man given to individuals to pursue the religion of their choice, but a privilege given to a community to follow their traditional religion...
Altogether, you could totally be murdered because for "heresy" as a christian in a muslim state with religious tolerance... It's not an oversight either, simply the community offed you, following their religious laws the state has guaranteed. If it's not communalism, I don't know what this is.

 

[Densetsu VII]

Like this overall. Question though, it seems like literally every one of these reforms EXCEPT the Chinese/Korean 3 Departments affects your country's societal values - I think this is really cool so, is 3 Departments going to have this and the stats are WIP? Or is there a reason they're not going to change your societal values?

 

[ibvfteh]

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday when we talk more about our upcoming top secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will go into details about the government reforms and look into some specific ones that you may use or not.

Representing everything from ancient traditions to progressive amendments, Government Reforms outline the shape of governance in a country. Each one is unique, but they often give powerful trade-offs or open up unique play styles.

At the start of the game, countries are only allowed 2 government reforms, but in every Age there is at least one advance that unlocks another slot for reforms. Some specific reforms also add another slot, so they are essentially “free” for that country. On average in the final Age of the game, a country may have 7 or 8 reforms.

Common Government Reforms that are available to everyone are likely to have an Age requirement, spreading out their availability over the game.

Some reforms are major reforms, and a country may not have more than one major reform at the same time.

There will be a diverse selection of reforms in each age, with about 5 common new ones added each age, and another 2 per government type. The unique ones are far more plentiful, and diverse, with over 150 currently in the game.

In the User Interface, the government reforms exist in the Crown’s part of the Estates Screen, as the Crown does not really have any estate privileges…

View attachment 1226072France can have 3 reforms, but are the current ones actually beneficial?


Removing a Government Reform currently costs 20 stability, which is a bit cheap, but that may change. Some reforms can not be removed at will though, and are locked until specific circumstances allow them to be removed.

Adding a new reform does not have a cost, but it takes up to 2 years before the benefits are fully implemented.



Common Reforms
Here are some examples of early government reforms that many nations have access to from the start.

Religious Tolerance
For when your country is populated by people who practice different beliefs and confessions. Therefore, it would be prudent to govern in a tolerant manner with them, ensuring their support for the government.

View attachment 1226073
It will make your country a bit more communal though..

Diplomatic Traditions
From time immemorial our people have favored the word above the sword, giving us the ability to forge lasting relationships with our allies and friends and a reputation as honest and loyal.

View attachment 1226074
For certain types of countries, this is rather important..


Military Order
This is a major reform that catholic theocracies have access to. It is one of the types of reforms that truly defines a country.

The Military Orders were created in the Middle Ages as a militant body of the Catholic Church. Its members are both warriors and monks who take religious vows and are destined to defend and expand Christianity.

View attachment 1226075
Military Sponsorships are vitally important to a Holy Order!



Unique Government Reforms
So let's take a look at some of the more unique government reforms that we have in the game right now.

Family Sagas
This is a unique reform that anyone with the primary culture of Icelandic can get, which both Iceland and Greenland starts with.

Our ancient sagas passed orally through the generations tell of adventurous expeditions to a distant and wild land over the western sea. Perhaps one day we may follow in the footsteps of our old compatriots.

View attachment 1226076
If only they had the population to exploit it..

Three Departments
This is available to any country that has Chinese or Korean as their court language.

The Three Departments System originates from the ancient Chinese empires and is the primary administrative structure of the state. All departments focus on several aspects of the process of drafting, establishing and revisiting state policies.

View attachment 1226077
If you want laws changed, this is the reform to have..

Magna Carta
This is a unique reform that England starts with, and is also possible for any country with the English primary culture, or if their overlord has this reform.

The 'Great Charter' is a constitutional law that distributes power away from the monarch and towards the barons. First signed in 1215, it is also one of the earliest documents to enshrine the idea of civil liberties, such as the right to a fair trial, and protection against illegal imprisonment.

View attachment 1226078
It gives some power to the nobility, and shapes the country towards certain ideals.


Stay tuned, as next week we will look into all the different types of Parliaments, and how you interact with them...

I think what should be added is: estate satisfaction penalty for adding and removing reforms. So adding reforms will be a minigame with estates(I need to please everyone so my nation wont explode while passing a reform)

To clarify:

Both maximum and current estate satisfaction can be changed.

For example reform A (Military Order) will give +5 for clergy estate maximum but not curret, however it will give -5 maximum to nobility estate and -10 current satisfaction. So it the end sort of net negative at the enactment. But the more time comes, the more everyone accepts the changes.

However to not make nobility revolt, you have to make some concessions to them in advance. And those can also influence your nation in a long run (not only monetary concessions)

 

[dbruser]

That's what got the Portuguese around Africa (and potentially to Brazil before Columbus) not what sparked the colonisation of the Americas. That process was the end of decades of dedicated effort toward the end of improved sailing techniques and technology. The arrival of the Spanish to the Caribbean was, at best, an almighty fluke as was the conquest of the Mexica


That said I don't think people are understanding how this is Iceland setup is going to work in game. You're going to have player Iceland rushing the new world every single game and that's going to warp the optimal play for the British Isles and Scandinavia

Gameplay is already warped by how players know the Americas exist even though the AI doesn't and this is going to make that worse a full century earlier

There's no way players are going to be rushing the Americas.

A) You would probably have to fully bankrupt the country to even establish a singular colony
B) They literally don't have enough population to colonize more than like 1-2 locations

Because of these, it's literally not worth it. Even if they feasably could establish a single colony, you would probably land your country with dozens of loans and not be able to keep up with the interest. It will literally be easier to like go and conquer norway or scotland than try to rush the Americas.

I'm sure someone will do some Vinland cheese strategy, but that will probably involve taking over the British isles by the mid 1300's and then colonizing. At that point, the issue isn't being able to colonize, but the issue is Iceland conquering England in 30 years.

 

[Monty is staring at me]

Cause historically "religious tolerance" is not a right of man given to individuals to pursue the religion of their choice, but a privilege given to a community to follow their traditional religion...
Altogether, you could totally be murdered because for "heresy" as a christian in a muslim state with religious tolerance... It's not an oversight either, simply the community offed you, following their religious laws the state has guaranteed. If it's not communalism, I don't know what this is.

I understand this, but I would argue it's still less communal than forcing everyone in a society to follow the same faith.

And there were some early ideas with regards to individual liberty from the Renaissance onwards that have to do with religious tolerance, such as Poland's religious tolerance which wasn't based around communities, but individual people having a right to their faith.

Maybe there's another Renaissance era reform or a PLC specific reform to do with humanist religious tolerance. But I feel a trend to decentralization would be far better than communalism here.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Why, if their colonial efforts failed? Its not like Portugal was a massive population nexus, either.

If it really IS a matter of knowledge of how to colonise and explore, that is.

There would be maybe a 100k total population in Iceland+Greenland combined at the time tops.