Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

[GenericUsername1444]

Georgia and the Latins

​

Georgia, despite being historically being surrounded by hostile nations, maintained strong religious, political, and economic ties with the broader western world until the Fall of Constantinople in 1453.

The incumbent monarch in 1337, Giorgi V "The Brilliant", was very diplomatically gifted, and his apostles regularly visited with the rulers of western Europe with varied goals and results.
For example, in 1331[1], the French king Philip VI received the following letter from Georgia:

"The God-fearing sovereigns of France often stir up the kings of the east to war against the Saracens, but then they (Franks) do not come, leaving us to be dragged into such painful wars alone. Therefore, we urge you to determine how and when you will cross the sea, and you will immediately see me there, according to your good will, with 30,000 soldiers." ​

In this letter, Giorgi V was vowing to join a Crusade like his predecessor Giorgi IV was in 1220. The French king reciprocated the gesture by sending 2 of his diplomats later that year.

Georgia and Catholicism​

Catholicism was present in Georgia for some time before the start date of 1337. As it is known, a Catholic bishopric existed in Sukhumi as early as in 1318 and a certain Bernard Morre was appointed as the bishop. Peter Gerald was appointed to the same position in 1330[2][3].

According to Tea Tsitlanadze et al. "The first half of the 14th century was marked by numerous Catholic missions to Georgia: the missions of Dominicans and Franciscans were represented in relatively large numbers. Once again, their main goal was unification of the Georgian and Vatican churches"[4].

Pope John XXII had at least 2 diplomatic missions with Georgia during his reign. The first, dated to the 15th of October, 1322, stated the following:

“To the Brilliant King of the Georgians, George V,”
“We ask and pray to the Lord Christ that you will immediately return to the one Holy Roman Church and not consider less important what we are doing these days by the inspiration of the Lord and with the advice of our obedient brothers. These obedient brothers are busy educating you and the peoples under your authority, with the help of the authority of the Holy Scriptures, which is provided for by our government.”

In this excerpt, the Pope reflects upon the martyrdom of brother Demetrius of Tbilisi, who died for his faith, along with his peers, a year earlier in Tana, India. The surviving monks reported back to the Bishop of Rome, who was informed of the strengthening of Georgia and the spread of the faith in it. Hearing of this, the Pope sent more missionaries to Georgia, along with the messenger of this letter.
The letter itself is quite long, so I cut out a lot of it, but it signifies that Catholicism was present in Georgia, to the point that even nobles began converting to it.

In the second letter, dated to 1328, the Pope authorised the consecration of the Diocese of Tbilisi (Latin: Dioecesis Tephlisensis) and the move of the episcopal see of Smyrna to Tbilisi[5][6].

After much consultation and investigation, we and our brother cardinals have been convinced that Tiflis, the center of the Georgian kingdom, is the best, most excellent, full of people, wise and abundant in wealth. In the past, the Dominicans, who left at the will of the elders, by their activity and indescribable labor, converted the majority of the inhabitants of this city and the surrounding areas to the Catholic faith; now they believe and confess everything that the Roman Church believes, confesses and teaches. Therefore, for the praise of the name of God, for the honor and propagation of the faith, by the advice of our aforesaid brethren and by the power of our full apostolic authority, we transfer the episcopal see of Smyrna to the aforesaid city of Tiflis. For if, by the grace of the Apostolic See, a bishop is appointed to that place, who is to establish and teach the Catholic doctrine to the people without blemish, we are certain and firmly believe, as the above-mentioned position also shows, that with the help of the Lord the believers will be strengthened in the faith and many unbelievers will easily be converted to the light of truth, which is Christ.

John of Florence was appointed by Pope John XXII as Dominican missionary on August 19, 1329, as the first Dominican bishop in Tbilisi and Pietro Geraldi in Sukhumi.

"Pope John XXII to our beloved son, John of Florence, Bishop of Tiflis. Peace and apostolic blessing. With great effort, we strive, labor, and, with the help of God, use every means to meet the needs that will duly contribute to the spread of the Catholic faith, the strengthening of the service of God, and the success of the salvation of the nation." [...] "For the strengthening of the Catholic faith, for the advancement of the service of the name of God, and for other honorable reasons, in recent times, by the advice of our brothers and by the authority of our apostolic plenipotentiary, we have established the magnificent city of Tiflis in the Georgian kingdom as an episcopal city, preserving its own name and decreeing that it will continue to be called by this same name in the future: “Episcopal City of Tiflis".

In-game, I believe the Catholic Church IO should be present in Georgia, alongside the state religion of Orthodoxy. Some parts of the location of Tbilisi and Tskhumi should practice Catholicism. If there exists a system of ecclesiastical territories, Sukhumi and Tbilisi should have jurisdiction over the western and eastern parts of Georgia, respectively. I don't know how the presence of the episcopal see in Tbilisi can be represented, but it should have some significance.

Georgia and Genoa​

All this Catholic influence came in tandem with increasing trade in the Black Sea, established by the The Pax Mongolica a century prior.

At this point in time, Genoa was the master of the Mediterranean, and the Treaty of Nymphaeum signed in 1262 guaranteed Genoese hegemony over the Black Sea. That is, as long as Constantinople remained in Christian hands.

While the main Genoese trade colony was based in Caffa, in Crimea, a territory they had direct control over, the eastern Black Sea, specifically Georgia, was also very lucrative for them, due to its renowned Silk Road trade.

The many disparate colonies or factoriums across the Georgian coast were handled by the Consul, elected by the Genoese Republic, with its headquarters in Tskhumi (contemporary Sukhumi).

According to Tamaz Beradze in "Navigation and Maritime Trade in Medieval Georgia", the cities given special rights to with Genoa were Costo (modern Sochi), Laiazo (m. Gantiadi), Cacaru (m. Gagra), Pezonda (m. Bichvinta), Nisoffia (m. New Athos), Savastopoli (m. Sukhumi), Catanacha (m. Gulripshi), Tamassa (m. Tamishi), Merkula (m. Ochamchire), Castro Corenbedia (m. Ilori), Lofasio (m. Poti), San Giorgio (m. Grigoleti), Lo Vati (m. Batumi) and Gonea (m. Gonio Fort)[7][8].

According to Tinatin Kutelia in "The Circulation of European Coinage in Georgia", the unusually high amount of Italian coinage from this time period is evidence of mass-scale trade in western Georgia[9].

I sadly couldn't find further information on when these colonies were established, but all of them evidently existed during the lifetime of Giorgi V, and we can conjecture that most of them they came into being immediately after his reconquest of the western Georgian kingdom, that is, after 1329, when he would have had the greatest ability to conduct diplomacy and focus on trade.

In game, I believe this should translate to Genoa and Georgia having some sort of agreement between themselves, thus giving both sides bonuses in income. Moreover, I think Georgia and Genoa should have mutually higher diplomatic ranges, as long as these colonies (represented in-game as buildings) remain operational.

In addition to this, I believe the locations of Sukhumi, Poti, Batumi, Rize and Trebizond, among others, should be given a better score for their natural harbours, as these port cities have been renowned since antiquity for their usefulness in trade.

If you have any questions or suggestions, feel free to reply.


References:


1. კიკნაძე ვაჟა, "საქართველოს ისტორიის ევროპული წყაროები" - Kikinadze Vazha, "European Sources in Georgian History", 1983, Page 159.

2. Alasania Giuli, "Level of Independence in Georgia Throughout the 14th Century", 2016, page 11. Link

3. Muskhelishvili David, "Historical Atlas of Georgia", 2023, pages 76-77.

4. თეა წითლანაძე და სხვა, "მე-14 საუკუნეში აღმოსავლეთსა და საქართველოში გამოგზავნილ კათოლიკე მისიონერთა იდენტობისა და სამოღვაწეო ასპარეზის დაზუსტებისთვის" - Tsitlanadze Tea et al., "Towards the Clarification of the Identity and Sphere of Activities of the Missionaries who Visited the Orient and Georgia in the 14th century", 2009. Link

5. თამარაშვილი მიქელ, "ისტორია კათოლიკობისა ქართველთა შორის. ნამდვილის საბუთების შემოტანითა და განმარტებით XIII საუკუნიდგან ვიდრე XX საუკუნემდე" - Tamarashvili Mikel, "History of Catholicism Among the Georgian People. Real Documents from the 13th to 20th centuries", 1902, pages 27-46. (579-589 in Latin). Link

6. Rayfield Donald, "Edge of Empires : A History of Georgia", 2012, pages 139-140.

7. Gamakharia Jemal et al., "Assays from the History of Georgia - ABKHAZIA - from ancient times till the present days", 2011, Pages 162-169. Link

8. Берадзе, Тамаз Николаевич, "Мореплавание и морская торговля в средневековой Грузии" - Beradze Tamaz, "Navigation and Maritime Trade in Medieval Georgia", 1989. Link

9. ქუთელია თინათინ, "ევროპული ფულის მიმოქცევა საქართველოში" - Kutelia Tinatin, "The Circulation of European Coinage in Georgia". Link

 

[L1nk48]

I finally have some free time to propose to you to unite Caucasian languages into 3 groups: Kartvelian, Abkhaz-Adygian and Nakh-Dagestani. I don't know much about Kartvelian and Abkhaz-Adygian, and there have already been some suggestions here before me, but about Nakh-Dagestani I propose to use the modern classification and use the languages not as dialects of the general "Dagestani", but as separate languages of this language family. I also propose to unite all 3 groups into a common Ibero-Caucasian language family, although it is hypothetical, but in my opinion it is as true as possible.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

This will be my attempt to give insight in what I believe should be the Georgian Societal Values​

Centralisation vs Decentralisation: -50

Georgia, even at its political zenith in the late 12th and early 13th centuries, nevertheless remained a strongly feudal state with rather weak royal power. After the Mongol conquest, the ostensibly appointed or elected positions of Eristavi (Duke) became semi-hereditary, only to be briefly reigned in in the lifetime of the starting ruler, Giorgi V.
In many ways, the extremely rugged physical geography of Georgia makes exerting central state power very difficult, especially as one strays further from the capital of Tbilisi and its immediate Mtkvari river basin.

Traditionalist vs Innovative: -70

While the Iberians were renowned for their strides in theology in the Christian East, Georgia of the 14th century can only be described as a typical medieval state, with only a minor interest in progress in the Whig History sense.
Even to this day, Georgia remains a highly traditionalist, and in some ways, isolationist culture, which is only now beginning to open up to concepts such as globalism.
The only reason this value isn't higher (or lower, rather), is due to the ruling monarch's own predisposition for reform and progress.

Spiritualist vs Humanist: -90

Since its conversion in the first half of the 4th century A.D., Christianity has been an extremely central force in Georgian history.
In many ways, the ethnogenesis of the Georgian people from the Colchians and the Iberians of antiquity only begun and took place due to the spread of Christianity to both societies by the 5th century A.D.
The Georgian scripts were created by native monks (under foreign influence) with the express purpose of writing hagiography and translating the New Testament.
Not only that, but the entire state apparatus worked in a "Symphonia" with the Church.
The Georgian monarchs derived their legitimacy and right to rule from their (almost certainly fabricated) myth of Davidic descent, and therefore, kinship with Christ.
Humanistic ideas reached Georgia rather late, and they failed to resonate with the wider public, as by the time the concept did arrive to Georgia, or what was left of it, most of its denizens were unfortunately more concerned with survival rather than philosophy.

Aristocracy vs Plutocracy: -90

It is difficult to overstate the absolutely entrenched nature of feudalism in Georgia, and the extreme division between those of noble blood, and the common folk.
Even at the height of Georgia's power ~2 centuries prior to the start date, the Georgian dynastic nobility simply didn't accept the new royal decision of raising lowborns to important governmental positions - in the case of Tamar and Qutlu Arslan, this nearly led to civil war.
There was a very sophisticated court culture, which took inspiration from the Byzantine one, developed independently from the 9th century, and was codified by the incumbent king in 1337, Giorgi V, in his "Regulations of the Royal Court".
While Georgia doesn't neatly fit the western European conception of feudalism, I believe my proposed depiction is accurate to history.

Serfdom vs Free Subjects: -60

As stated above, Georgia was a country with an entrenched culture of feudalism. It is no surprise, then, that one of the most integral parts of feudalism, serfdom, was omnipresent in Georgia, and would only be abolished in 1864, under the orders of Alexander II, the Liberator.
As with most states before the early modern period, the economy was almost entirely agrarian, with a heavy focus on viticulture, which is purported to be the oldest in the world.
There were, however, regions in Georgia which were entirely free from the yoke of feudalism, such as the highland province of Svaneti. It was simply impossible to enforce a feudal structure on a such a bellicose and freedom-loving people, hence the score being relatively balanced out.

Belligerent vs Conciliatory: +50

Georgia is unfortunately located right between large land masses, where empires naturally formed throughout history. As such, there is a long tradition of Kartvelian states appeasing foreign powers and remaining politically independent. Georgia became especially diplomatically renowned under Giorgi V, who largely bloodlessly restored Georgian independence from the Ilkhanate.
One must learn to tread carefully when constantly surrounded by huge empires.

Quality vs Quantity: -70

Georgia is a rather small country, with a big martial tradition going back millennia.
With a naturally small pool of manpower, Georgian armies naturally focused more on efficiency, rather than numbers.
A large part of Georgian military of the time were peasant levies, who nonetheless trained to fight since childhood.
Then came the petty nobility, the Aznauri, who had access to heavy armour and horses.
And finally came the great lords of the land, who had their own bodyguards and knights surrounding them in battle.
There are also reports of (Christian) north Caucasian tribal vassals being called into wars and entering battles as auxiliaries.
In the high middles ages, there existed a Men-at-Arms called the Monaspa, created from the handpicked soldiers of the king, though it most likely wouldn't've existed by 1337.
This army composition remained nearly unchanged until the 19th century, with the slow annexation of Georgian statelets by the Russian Empire.
Thus, I believe such a score best reflects Georgian military history and strategy.

Offensive vs Defensive: +80

While I may be biased, as I am writing of the country I was born and raised in, I believe I am being objective in saying that Georgia has been on the defensive for most of its existence. I am almost certainly being influenced by mildly revisionist 19th century history, but I hold firm in my belief that Georgia, first as a concept, and then as a tangible, united polity, has been on the defensive for the majority of its conflicts.
The geography of the Caucasus region simply doesn't allow for further expansion, while the neighbouring super-regions of the Iranian Plateau and arguably Asia Minor naturally lead into the Caucasus.

Land vs Naval: -70

Georgia of 1337 has access to the Black Sea, and conducts trade rather well, but truth be told, naval power has always been of neglibile importance to Colchis (and subsequently Georgia) since the expansion of the Roman Empire into Asia Minor.
To be laconic, the core population of Georgia resides in the region of Kartli, a landlocked province far from the sea, and the Silk Road trade, renowned in the West, was entirely land-based until the very last stop near the cost, which was then handled by foreign merchants.

Capital Economy vs Traditional Economy: +60

As discussed already, Georgia of 1337 was rather traditionalist, and its economy was very much agrarian. For the sake of brevity, I won't repeat myself further.
I will, however, give a more lenient score as a suggestion, simply due to 1 factor: royal cities.
The world of 1337 was becoming more and more urban-centric, and Georgia wasn't an outlier in this trend. Cities (and their surrounding areas), which were owned and controlled directly by the king, were the beating heart of the royal domain, and their desolation by the eastern epidemics and by the many Turkic invaders in the ensuing centuries eventually led to the tripartite division and collapse of the kingdom.
All of this, however, was yet to come, hence the score.

Individualism vs Communalism: +70

Again, I am perhaps biased towards my own country and its may tales of heroic self-sacrifice for the greater good, but it is my belief that such small, isolated regions naturally breed trust among its common inhabitants, especially the ones as different, and perhaps esoteric, from the point of view of their neighbours, as the Kartvelians. Interpersonal trust was the foundation of Georgian civic society since time immemorial.
Bravery. Honour. Faith.
I believe these words best describe the most desirable traits of the Georgian of the time.

Mercantilism vs Free Trade: -30

This one was rather tricky. One the one hand, Georgia extensively participated in the international trade of its time, and was rather good at it. One the other hand, most trade in Georgia was domestic and short distance. It is difficult to conjecture what the attitudes towards such policies would've been at the time, as no contemporary documents survive. Hence, this is the most balanced of the values.

Outward vs Inward: +80

This one was rather easy. There's not much to say, really - it's quite self-evident that a culture as unique and isolated as Georgian is bound to be focused inwards, rather than outwards. This is not to say that the society was totally isolated. South and eastern Georgia, for example, was always a hub of cultural exchange and trade.

Liberalism vs Absolutism: ?

Sadly, or fortunately, depending on your worldview, neither of those concepts were present in Georgia the time span of the game. Obviously, Liberalism couldn't take root in societies where basic survival was the main priority for 95% of the population. Similarly, absolutism was impossible for any Georgian kingdom to achieve, as central state power wasn't very strong for any of them at any point.
I'd argue that absolutism would be closer to Georgia had the philosophy reached it, but that's just me.

Obviously, all of the above stated are just my views with regards to Georgia. If you disagree, by all means, reply.
I try to make these essay-like posts palatable for the users and developers.

Spoiler

@giorgi1999 @SuperLexxe @Lukagen @Georgian Noble @racnes

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[Ahmadmltft]

So I guess the Safavids for example would have Azeri primary culture, Arabic liturgical language and Persian court language?

I would say Persian primary culture,azeri zulture for the royal family.The court was always bilingual however at the start it was more Turkic and after Shah abbas it became more Persian.

 

[Patlichan]

Thanks for another great set of maps! I have a few quick thoughts when looking through them.

Particularity, could you have another look at the Circassians? Taking for example take these map from the Circassia and Abazins wiki pages:

Spoiler: Maps

View attachment 1187326View attachment 1187327View attachment 1187328

We see that the Abazins should not be on the coast, but more inland (2nd map, in red), while the coast is dominated by Adyghe ("Circassians" in the current setup) and Ubykhia. Personally, I would like to see the Ubykh as a separate culture, but if you feel this is not suitable, it might be better to make these lands Circassian cultured. I also miss the Kabardians in and around the Tatartup location. These could be either represented as Circassian culture, or made a separate culture, up to you.

I don't think the Balkar and Karachay cultures should be separated already in 1337. (not even sure I would separate them nowadays)

In Iran, could you add the Qashqai and the Khorasani Turks?

Great to see Mandaeans are already confirmed Will we also have Yezidi's? I figure the start date is too soon for Yarsanism, but will it appear shortly after the game start?

Lastly, are you adding any Swahili "Zanj" pops? Asking here since Basra was the site of the Zanj rebellion, but the question goes for the whole region, also last weeks map

By the start date of project caesar, Abazins have not yet completed their migration.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

On the Map Colour and Flag of Georgia​

While I very much welcome the choice of red as the national colour of the polity, I think a different shade would be better suited for the country. From the precedent set by @SaintDaveUK with regards to the colour changes of Byzantium and Naples, I don't think it'd be unreasonable to ask one for Georgia and its subjects too.

According to the Decree of the President of Georgia, No. 31 of 25 January 2004, the RGB code of the flag must be 255-0-0, not 137-62-60 as it is now.

​

While on the surface it may seem anachronistic to suggest that the modern flag should decide how the country should look in-game, it must be noted that the current flag is directly inspired by the one instituted by the contemporaneous to the start date king of Georgia, Giorgi V. According to David Kldiashvili, Nodar Astatiani et al., the flag was adopted by the kingdom after the correspondence with the ruler of the Mamluk Sultanate, Al-Nasir Muhammad, who acknowledged the rights of the Georgian Christian pilgrims of the Holy Land, and sent the old Jerusalem Cross flag of the defunct Jerusalemite kingdom as a gift to king Giorgi.
The flag is most prominently featured in the later editions of the Portolan chart.

​

Speaking of which, the flags which we saw from Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May, regarding International Organisations, are quite interesting.

​

I can't clearly make out all the flags belonging to the Georgian Church, but the first and third ones clearly represent Georgia and the kingdom of Abkhazia, the latter of which at that point had been an integral part of the united Georgian kingdom for 300+ years...
I think some slight revisions may be needed here.



We are currently unaware of whether the game will include provincial or location-level coats of arms, like in CK3 with its barony-county-duchy-kingdom-empire system, but if it will, I highly recommend using Vakhushti Bagrationi's book, "The Description of the Kingdom of Georgia, the habits and canons of Georgia" as a guide, as he is one of the most important historiographers in the history of the region.

Here are some examples: the flags of Svaneti, Somkhiti (the province of Tashir in-game), and Arran.

 

[Linbot#6018]

On the Map Colour and Flag of Georgia​

While I very much welcome the choice of red as the national colour of the polity, I think a different shade would be better suited for the country. From the precedent set by @SaintDaveUK with regards to the colour changes of Byzantium and Naples, I don't think it'd be unreasonable to ask one for Georgia and its subjects too.

According to the Decree of the President of Georgia, No. 31 of 25 January 2004, the RGB code of the flag must be 255-0-0, not 137-62-60 as it is now.

View attachment 1228087View attachment 1228088View attachment 1228089

​

While on the surface it may seem anachronistic to suggest that the modern flag should decide how the country should look in-game, it must be noted that the current flag is directly inspired by the one instituted by the contemporaneous to the start date king of Georgia, Giorgi V. According to David Kldiashvili, Nodar Astatiani et al., the flag was adopted by the kingdom after the correspondence with the ruler of the Mamluk Sultanate, Al-Nasir Muhammad, who acknowledged the rights of the Georgian Christian pilgrims of the Holy Land, and sent the old Jerusalem Cross flag of the defunct Jerusalemite kingdom as a gift to king Giorgi.
The flag is most prominently featured in the later editions of the Portolan chart.

View attachment 1228095View attachment 1228132​

Speaking of which, the flags which we saw from Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May, regarding International Organisations, are quite interesting.

View attachment 1228099

​

I can't clearly make out all the flags belonging to the Georgian Church, but the first and third ones clearly represent Georgia and the kingdom of Abkhazia, the latter of which at that point had been an integral part of the united Georgian kingdom for 300+ years...
I think some slight revisions may be needed here.



We are currently unaware of whether the game will include provincial or location-level coats of arms, like in CK3 with its barony-county-duchy-kingdom-empire system, but if it will, I highly recommend using Vakhushti Bagrationi's book, "The Description of the Kingdom of Georgia, the habits and canons of Georgia" as a guide, as he is one of the most important historiographers in the history of the region.

Here are some examples: the flags of Svaneti, Somkhiti (the province of Tashir in-game), and Arran.

View attachment 1228121View attachment 1228122View attachment 1228123​

The red colour in the second flag you share seems very similar to the in-game colour.

 

[Ispil]

To quote myself and do some extrapolating from this:

Now, as for culture... culture is a complicated beast. For many of these groups, being "of a particular tribe" is of great importance and genealogy is in many regards one of the motivators for whether or not a particular sedentary group would be protected by a given nomadic group. So, if we want to start taking a look at what cultures go where in Arabia, we need to look at the bigger picture of tribes.

• The Banu Tayy were the originating tribe for the Al Fadl, Al 'Ali, Al Mira, Shammar, and Banu Lam (ostensibly)
• The Banu Amir were the originating tribe for the Banu Kilab, Subay, and for the Jarwanids (and Jabrids, who take over from the Jarwanids)
• The Banu Hanifah are the main sedentary tribal group in al-Yamamah
• The Banu Sulaym, with Zib as an offshoot; tribal area is predominantly to the east and southeast of Medina
• The Al-A'idh are a bit of a mystery; associated with Qahtan but through alliance, not genealogy; likely their own thing
• The Banu Wa'il, the tribal group actually associated with the Anazah; while there are claims that they were settling in Sutayr in the 14th century, tracking those claims through generations of oral tradition indicate that they're off by a couple of centuries
• There is a broader association of Hijazi people of al-Zafir, Harb, and Banu Husayn
• There is an association of southern Najdi people of al-Dawasir and Qahtan
• The Banu Yam are considered distinctly "the nomads of Yemen", but didn't have much in the way of conflict with al-Dawasir and Qahtan
• Otaibah also seem to be their own thing; usually in conflict with Mecca but otherwise not really in conflict or association with other tribes
• Hutaym don't really play into things in this era

Those are the main tribal groupings in Najd in the 14th century. Note that the Banu Lam filled the vacuum that the Banu Amir left behind when they migrated to Iraq and Syria, as the Tayy themselves migrated to Syria.

So, what does that look like, roughly?
View attachment 1228871

1. Tayy
2. Amiri (cuts through the vertical-line area; the area with lines are settled Hanifa
3. Hutaym
4. Wa'il (Anezi)
5. Hijazi (can probably extend this through the Sharifate of Mecca as well
6. Sulami
7. Southern Najdi
8. Otaibi

The horizontal-line area are Al-A'idh

It's a bit of a messy map, but that's the best I could work out in terms of reasonable dividing of various groups that considered themselves related in some meaningful way or were otherwise associated with each other.

Also just note how much that map will change by the end of the game:
View attachment 1228876
That's a lotta migration!

The culture of Iraq should have this modification:

Basically, those Arab tribes of Najd have already started their migrations into Iraq. Eventually those two groups will, in Iraq, be unified together under Muntafiq. Of course, that isn't the case in 1337, but those tribes are already on the move; Banu Amir in particular had already vacated Najd for Bahrain and southern Iraq three centuries earlier, though they of course by 1337 that dynasty was no more and they had received pushback from both the Mongols and the Tayy. However, they were by no means gone in 1337; there's still a considerable Arab presence there. The Tayy, meanwhile, migrated northward during the Ayyubids and in 1337 were in service to the Mamluks (or at least, Al Fadl, Al 'Ali, and Al Mira were; Shammar and Banu Lam were not).

Iraqi in this context hence represents the Iranian people in Iraq as a distinct, Iranian culture (it had a lot of influence on the region at this point in time; when Ibn Battuta visited Basra he noted that had two Arab quarters and a Persian quarters, so naturally the "Persian" would be Iraqi), while Tayy and Amiri represent the Arab people there in 1337.

 

[Ekyman]

On the Map Colour and Flag of Georgia​

While I very much welcome the choice of red as the national colour of the polity, I think a different shade would be better suited for the country. From the precedent set by @SaintDaveUK with regards to the colour changes of Byzantium and Naples, I don't think it'd be unreasonable to ask one for Georgia and its subjects too.

According to the Decree of the President of Georgia, No. 31 of 25 January 2004, the RGB code of the flag must be 255-0-0, not 137-62-60 as it is now.

View attachment 1228087View attachment 1228088View attachment 1228089

​

While on the surface it may seem anachronistic to suggest that the modern flag should decide how the country should look in-game, it must be noted that the current flag is directly inspired by the one instituted by the contemporaneous to the start date king of Georgia, Giorgi V. According to David Kldiashvili, Nodar Astatiani et al., the flag was adopted by the kingdom after the correspondence with the ruler of the Mamluk Sultanate, Al-Nasir Muhammad, who acknowledged the rights of the Georgian Christian pilgrims of the Holy Land, and sent the old Jerusalem Cross flag of the defunct Jerusalemite kingdom as a gift to king Giorgi.
The flag is most prominently featured in the later editions of the Portolan chart.

View attachment 1228095View attachment 1228132​

Speaking of which, the flags which we saw from Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May, regarding International Organisations, are quite interesting.

View attachment 1228099

​

I can't clearly make out all the flags belonging to the Georgian Church, but the first and third ones clearly represent Georgia and the kingdom of Abkhazia, the latter of which at that point had been an integral part of the united Georgian kingdom for 300+ years...
I think some slight revisions may be needed here.



We are currently unaware of whether the game will include provincial or location-level coats of arms, like in CK3 with its barony-county-duchy-kingdom-empire system, but if it will, I highly recommend using Vakhushti Bagrationi's book, "The Description of the Kingdom of Georgia, the habits and canons of Georgia" as a guide, as he is one of the most important historiographers in the history of the region.

Here are some examples: the flags of Svaneti, Somkhiti (the province of Tashir in-game), and Arran.

View attachment 1228121View attachment 1228122View attachment 1228123​

That flag on the map looks closer in color to the second flag picture you posted than the vibrant modern one.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

On the Demographics of Georgia

​

Present on the ersatz maps below are what I believe to be the most true to life mappings of the cultural and religious demographics of the kingdom of Georgia in the 14th century.

Before we begin, I just want to note that none of the maps presented below will be representing the ancient Jewish community of Georgia, as they're far too small in number and are not concentrated in the cities, unlike their brethren in Europe or in the middle east.

You may notice that the maps do not include all the territories owned by the kingdom at the time, and includes land not owned by the kingdom directly. Instead, this map seeks to represent Georgia in its "de jure" state, to use a CK3 term. I think these maps describes the kingdom as it ought to be, so to speak.

The true, political map can be seen here, kindly provided to us by @SuperLexxe, and it differs from the ones below quite a lot:

Let's begin with culture:

​

Legend:

Kartvelian Group:

Red - Georgians ​

Old Green - Mingrelians​

Agave - Svans​

Grey - Laz​

​

Indo-European Group:

Violet - Armenians​

Turquoise - Pontic Greeks​

Yellow - Ossetians​

​

Northeast Caucasian Group:

Cyan - Nakhs​

Green - Udis​

​

Northwest Caucasian Group:

Olive - Abkhazians/Apsua and Abaza​

​

Crosses indicate minorities of their respective cultures


Admittedly, this map is not very well made, but I strove to make it more legible at the expense of pure visual style.
I also tried to choose relevant colours for the respective ethnicities, but at times I had to pick the colour of the state, rather than the pops, as was the case with Pontic Greeks and Trebizond, and a new colour entirely, in the case of the Udis to the east.

For me, the most contentious region to map was, without question, Abkhazia. While most other regions are quite easy to demarcate, Abkhazia, due to our lack of contemporary sources for the period, was very difficult to map objectively. In the end, I decided to compromise, and split the region in half, as I believe that represents the traditional geographic boundary for the Kartvelian inhabitants of the region (at least with the tools available to us in this iteration of the map).

The other regions were easier to map out, but they weren't without issue either. Tao-Klarjeti in southwestern Georgia was always a frontier region, and was home to a rather mixed population of Georgians and western Armenians. However, the grand majority of its inhabitants were Chalcedonian Christians, which meant that assimilation to the Georgian identity was happening at a faster (and more peaceful) pace. Hence, I think by 1337 most Chalcedonian Armenians would've been assimilated to the global Georgian culture.

The rest of the regions were pretty self-explanatory, so I won't dwell on them too much - Udis in and around the region known in antiquity as Albania, minority Nakh peoples in Khevsureti and Tusheti, minority Ossetians on the borderlands of the Darial Pass (and not in the middle of Kartli, as king Giorgi V expelled them a few years prior to the game start), and some Pontic Greeks on the Pontic coast.

And now onto religion:

​

Legend:

Christianity:

Yellow - Orthodox​

Orange - Miaphysite​

​

Non-Abrahamic Animism:

Blue - Kartvelian Paganism​

Green - Abkhaz/Apsua Paganism​

​

Crosses indicate minorities of their respective cultures


As this post concerns the Caucasus, religion and ethnicity go hand-in-hand beyond any other region in the world. In a way, this map is a spinoff of the previous one, though it's much easier to read.

I believe the most prominent features of the map are the northern outposts of the Kartvelian pagans - to give a bit of context, it is believed that true, unsyncretised Kartvelian paganism only "died out" in the 19th century, facilitated by more contacts with the wider world after the Russian conquests. Even now, semi-pagan beliefs and practices persist to this day, such as the infamous Lomisoba in Mtiuleti.

Miaphysite influence had been on the decline even before the start of the game, but the faith was by no means territorially small. I think it could be argued that Miaphysitism or Oriental Orthodoxy is the ethnic religion of the Armenian people, and that is reflected in these two maps basically 1:1.

In the rural far northwest of the country, it is highly likely that many pastoralist and semi-nomadic Abkhaz or Apsua people hadn't ever been converted by either the Constantinopolitan or Georgian churches, hence their depiction as such.

Some of you may be perplexed at the complete absence of Islam in the "de jure" borders of Georgia, and with good reason - today, most Caucasians are indeed Muslims, outnumbering Christians at least 2 to 1. However, in the early 14th century, Islam had not yet spread beyond the borders of Shirvan in the far southeastern end of the Caucasus.

All of this was soon about to change, however...

Population?

​

Unfortunately, we have literally no written records about the population of Georgia at the time. However, the survey done nearly a hundred years ago, in 1254, was conducted by the Mongols for military and financial purposes. The male population of Georgia aged 15-60 was counted, as well as livestock, movable property, fields, vineyards, etc. As a result of the census, the Mongols conscripted 90 thousand warriors from Georgia at the rate of one warrior for every 9 peasant.
According to this information, it is probable that at that time there must have been up to 5 million inhabitants in the kingdom.

Total conjecture, but something to keep in mind nonetheless.

If you have any other suggestions, feel free to reply.

Spoiler: Tags

@giorgi1999 @Georgian Noble @Lukagen @Ispil @racnes @Doxapar Orumf @Aramenian

 

[GenericUsername1444]

I'll post a few more historical maps in order for the devs to get a better understanding of the sort of changes that could be made to the locations of the Caucasus:

Sadly a few of these are a bit too big in size (even after shrinking), so they're attached as files instead.

Hopefully these maps will help in depicting Georgia if it goes down its historical path of collapse, or in general, helps depict its historical-geographic boundaries.

 

[giorgi1999]

I'll post a few more historical maps in order for the devs to get a better understanding of the sort of changes that could be made to the locations of the Caucasus:

View attachment 1236499View attachment 1236500View attachment 1236498View attachment 1236497

Sadly a few of these are a bit too big in size (even after shrinking), so they're attached as files instead.

Hopefully these maps will help in depicting Georgia if it goes down its historical path of collapse, or in general, helps depict its historical-geographic boundaries.

Do you have a link from where I can download the book these maps are from?

 

[BeyondExpectation]

And now onto religion:


View attachment 1231042View attachment 1231050

​

Legend:

Christianity:

Yellow - Orthodox​

Orange - Miaphysite​

​

Non-Abrahamic Animism:

Blue - Kartvelian Paganism​

Green - Abkhaz/Apsua Paganism​

​

Crosses indicate minorities of their respective cultures

​

I can't see any orange in the map you drew. Am I blind, or have you forgotten to add the Miaphysites?

 

[GenericUsername1444]

I can't see any orange in the map you drew. Am I blind, or have you forgotten to add the Miaphysites?

I should've picked another word to describe the colour - brown-burgundy? IDK.

South Georgia was always a culturally mixed region since time immemorial.

 

[Wildrake]

By 1337 Armenians would still be a majority in Nakhchivan and Karabakh, major population shift only occured with the Great Surgun in 1600s. Also, the Adhari region east of Georgia should be heavily mixed if not majority Udi

 

[GenericUsername1444]

Also, there is no evidence that Laz language was spoken outside of Lazica region in Pontic mountains during this period, it is not supported by toponymy or sources.

When it comes to the Caucasus/east Anatolia, toponymics aren't a very accurate way of determining the ethnic composition of a region, especially regarding Kartvelian ones.

We can make an educated guess that Zan-derived people like Laz-Chans, Chalybes and Macrones, among others, inhabited the entirety of Pontus until the Hellenisation of Asia Minor, which very gradually began to replace the native peoples of the region over the course of ~2000 years. I believe this process only really accelerated under the Ottoman rule, which classified all non-Armenian Chalcedonian Christians as "Rum", or "Roman", which naturally led to the assimilation of peoples like the Laz into the wider Orthodox-Greek identity.

Just because the language survives today in the extreme east of the Pontic mountains doesn't mean it wasn't territorially bigger in the past.
Just look at Gaelic in Scotland:

I actually made a map of what I believe to be the ethnic composition of the region in 1337 on the Anatolia Feedback talk, as I thought my post was more appropriate for that thread:

Spoiler: Legend

Green (hatches) - Turkic peoples
Turquoise - Laz people
Beige - Pontic Greeks
Red - Georgians

Crosses indicate minorities of their respective colours

 

[Wildrake]

We can make an educated guess that Zan-derived people like Laz-Chans, Chalybes and Macrones, among others, inhabited the entirety of Pontus until the Hellenisation of Asia Minor, which very gradually began to replace the native peoples of the region over the course of ~2000 years. I believe this process only really accelerated under the Ottoman rule, which classified all non-Armenian Chalcedonian Christians as "Rum", or "Roman", which naturally led to the assimilation of peoples like the Laz into the wider Orthodox-Greek identity.


I actually made a map of what I believe to be the ethnic composition of the region in 1337 on the Anatolia Feedback talk, as I thought my post was more appropriate for that thread:

View attachment 1239289

Spoiler: Legend

Green (hatches) - Turkic peoples
Turquoise - Laz people
Beige - Pontic Greeks
Red - Georgians

Crosses indicate minorities of their respective colours

Is there evidence to suggest that Lazes lived so much to the west of Trabzon? Most solid historical references to Lazes or Tzanes place their cultural area mostly east of Trabzon, with the exception of modern Gumushane, maybe. Sure, maybe Chalybes lived to the west many centuries but so are Kaskians, Luwians, Hattes, Mushki, Mysians, Phrygians, Galatians but it doesn't mean they are present in 1337.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

Is there evidence to suggest that Lazes lived so much to the west of Trabzon? Most solid historical references to Lazes or Tzanes place their cultural area mostly east of Trabzon, with the exception of modern Gumushane, maybe. Sure, maybe Chalybes lived to the west many centuries but so are Kaskians, Luwians, Hattes, Mushki, Mysians, Phrygians, Galatians but it doesn't mean they are present in 1337.

The Kartvelian peoples of Pontus coalesced into the broader Laz identity roughly by the time of the early Byzantine empire (7-8th century), just as the many Anatolian cultures devolved into sub-ethnic toponyms of the Hellenic-Romans.
I believe that as Greeks themselves became the titular minorities of the region (being supplanted by Turkic speakers over time), the Laz peoples also began to assimilate simultaneously into the "Turkish" and Greek identity too.

 

[Wildrake]

I would like to see such a cultural division of today's Azerbaijan
View attachment 1211158

By 1337 Udi land was already heavily Persianized and Islamized, I think Ganja and Barda should be majority Tat.

 

[Aramenian]

By 1337 Udi land was already heavily Persianized and Islamized, I think Ganja and Barda should be majority Tat.
View attachment 1240038

The city of Shaki and the surrounding area had a large population of Christians who were both Orthodox and professed the Armenian Apostolic Church.
As for Ganja and Barda, this region should be ethnically mixed - both Mongolian and Turkish tribes live in this region, the cities are probably dominated by the Persian-speaking population and the Armenian/Udi minority
The Turkization of Shirvan accelerated after the conquest of this region by the Safavids, who settled here the Turkmen tribes Döğer, Dulkadir, Qara Qoyunlu, Aq Qoyunlu. Timur himself brought 20,00 families of Turkish nomads to this region.

Spoiler: Dulkadir

Зулькадары (племя) — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

Дулкадирогуллары — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

Dulqədiroğulları bəyliyi — Vikipediya

az.wikipedia.org

Döğer (tribe) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This ethnic map of Azerbaijan shows that in the north of the country there is quite a large Armenian presence, these people are probably descendants of the Udi.

Удины — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org