The Hohenzollern Chronicles 5: Reborn Phoenix - The Roman Story in New World Order

[GhostRider124]

Again, the Goryeo monarchy uses imperial titles since royal titles only became established in later years, especially during Mongol rule, and were formalized in the Joseon era. I thought I could get away with Goryeo's emperors claiming themselves the heirs of Balhae and Jin to justify their conquest of Manchuria, but yesterday I learned the OTL Goryeo monarchs also claimed descent from a Tang emperor. Which makes my post-Mongol scenario of nearly every Chinese or East Asian regime claiming descent from a previous Chinese dynasty even more convoluted. You have at least 6 claimants to the Jin legacy (Manchurian Jurchens, Goryeo, the three Fusang courts, and random northern Japanese daimyo clans), at least 2 claimants to the Yuan legacy (the Yuan remnant and the Timurids, but Goryeo can also make an argument due to intermarriage with the Borjigins), at least 2 claimants to the Song legacy (the Tran and Penglai, and again Goryeo can make an argument), and now 1 claimant to the Tang legacy (Goryeo). Of course, most of the Goryeo emperors acknowledged that following through on these claims outside of Manchuria and Japan was impractical once the Jurchens and Yuan were subjugated by the Ming as part of their own northern expansion policy.

From what I understand many dynasties in OTL China used the names of previous dynasties as a yay to try and legitimize their own rule so I think you are good on that front.

Classical Chinese was still used in most high-level government and religious functions as in OTL, but written vernacular Chinese would be accepted and used for most practical stuff.

This reminds me of how in OTL it was said that the form of Japanese that Hirohito spoke was so old that many Japanese did not understand him when he made the announcement that Japan was surrendering after WWII. I wonder if something similar would happen in TTL with many everyday Chinese knowing vernacular Chinese and the royal family and nobility still using Classical?

 

[zenphoenix]

From what I understand many dynasties in OTL China used the names of previous dynasties as a yay to try and legitimize their own rule so I think you are good on that front.

Specifically that almost every dynasty from Qin up until Ming used the name of one of the Chinese states in the Spring and Autumn/Warring States period (for example: Han, the Three Kingdoms, the Jin of the 5th century, various dynasties named Wei or Qin, Song, and the Western Xia even though Xia is most likely mythological), with a few naming themselves after previous legitimate dynasties that had unified the country (the Qing started as the Later Jin, which was named after the 12th century Jin, which was actually not named after the 5th century Jin since the hanzi is different). The conquest dynasties of Liao, Jin, Yuan, and Qing (after dropping "Later Jin") as well as the native dynasty of Ming and several minor claimants chose their own name.

So in my scenario, Kublai Khan still chooses Yuan as his dynasty's name (and his successors still remain in northern China instead of being pushed back to Mongolia to be assigned the label of Northern Yuan), Zhu Yuanzhang still decides on using Ming, and the Aisin Gioro clan still translates their surname as Jin to get Later Jin (but never gets to the point of replacing it with Qing). In-universe Chinese historians might assign the Fusang courts the label of "Northern/Central/Southern Fusang Jin" and then "Eastern Jin" after unification, while the Song in Penglai are the "Penglai Song" (because "Southern Song" is already used in OTL to describe the Song dynasty after the Jin conquest of northern China and the former Song heartland). Goryeo is still Goryeo because the Korean emperors never seriously entertained the idea of founding their own Chinese dynasty, despite all of their claims of descent from one dynasty or another—instead, they use their claims to justify the conquest of Manchuria. Chinese historians wouldn't consider any Japanese daimyo claims as legitimate, especially if they're based on descent from a Jurchen dynasty, so they're just random daimyo. But the Tran, though, cause a lot of issues, because as far as I know such a situation never happened in imperial Chinese history. Goryeo certainly did it when its king adopted the crown prince of destroyed Balhae as his own son, though not to the point where that crown prince became heir to Goryeo itself. I still don't know if I want to keep them the "Tran" in line with imperial Vietnamese historiography or as "Yue" in line with imperial Chinese historiography (though "Dai Viet" was definitely used by certain Vietnamese emperors).

This reminds me of how in OTL it was said that the form of Japanese that Hirohito spoke was so old that many Japanese did not understand him when he made the announcement that Japan was surrendering after WWII. I wonder if something similar would happen in TTL with many everyday Chinese knowing vernacular Chinese and the royal family and nobility still using Classical?

I should point out that Classical Chinese is entirely a literary language. The spoken form only existed from the 5th century BCE to the 2nd century CE, after which it diverged into regional vernaculars. Nobody in the 13th-15th centuries actually spoke it—government officials handled all written functions in Classical Chinese but spoke in their vernacular. The Ming emperor could be understood by his subjects as long as they were familiar with the Nanjing dialect of Mandarin, the Goryeo monarch would generally be comprehensible to those speaking the Kaesong dialect of Korean, and so on. The unique thing with Classical Chinese, unlike Latin, is that it is pronunciation agnostic, and it has been standardized over many centuries—as long as two people knew how to write it, they could carry on a conversation in writing without speaking or writing in each other's vernacular. In my scenario, it allows Tawantinsuyuans to perfectly communicate with Penglairen through writing in Classical Chinese. The issue with Classical Chinese is that it is very hard to learn, which means standards of literacy were set very high in OTL China even with the meritocratic civil service exam system. An exam candidate was tested, among other things, on their mastery of the classical Confucian texts, which were standardized in Classical Chinese. It's already difficult enough for Koreans, Vietnamese, and Japanese, but even Chinese students speaking their vernaculars would be confused by the vocabulary, grammar, and word choices. A full education to become fluent in Classical Chinese and thus literate according to government standards took about 12 years by some estimates. That's why I had Sinosphere governments switching over to their vernaculars for written functions, to increase literacy. Classical Chinese would remain for courtly and religious texts as well as for diplomacy. The emperors would already be speaking their vernaculars, albeit in the dialect of their capital and with a few archaic or high level words.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Considering how the Spanish Empire was crippled by inflation in OTL, how would the Reich and other colonial empires avoid that fate during the age of exploration, and what empires might experience that kind of inflation?

Also I wonder how paper currency would catch on in this TTL and when would countries start moving away from the gold standard? I suspect China would be one of first to fully switch to banknotes since paper money seems to originate from China.

I still don't know if I want to keep them the "Tran" in line with imperial Vietnamese historiography or as "Yue" in line with imperial Chinese historiography (though "Dai Viet" was definitely used by certain Vietnamese emperors).

I'd go with either using "Yue" and "Tran" interchangeably or just continue calling the empire Vietnam or "Dai Viet" to be vague.

 

[zenphoenix]

In-universe Chinese historians might assign the Fusang courts the label of "Northern/Central/Southern Fusang Jin" and then "Eastern Jin" after unification

After doing more research on the Song and Jin and asking myself about the logistics of getting to Manco Capac and the news of a Sinicized Tawantinsuyu spreading to the Reich, a question popped into my head: what requires Fusang to be founded by those three specific Jin princes and not anybody sooner? Then I realized there’s nothing requiring me to set the “East Asia” point of divergence at the Mongol conquests.

So I read up on the history of the Song earlier today and found another historical event I could possibly use: the fall of the Liao Dynasty from 1120–1125 and the Jingkang Incident of 1127, which saw the Jin sacking Kaifeng, though they generally spared the general public, and capturing nearly the entire Song imperial family and their court. These captives, along with surviving members of the Liao imperial family, were exiled to the Jin capital in Manchuria and sold off as servants and slaves to the Jin imperial family and their court, with the ex-emperors particularly humiliated. I am understating the details because they are pretty gruesome and I’d rather not put them in this thread. So how does this change in my scenario?

First, sometime in the late 11th century a Song merchant vessel bound for Japan accidentally gets swept out to sea by the Kuroshio Current and is stranded somewhere on the Pacific Northwest. (Again, no need for Muslim shipwrights as the Song ones were just as capable if not more so at the time, and today’s research reinforced that.) The more educated among them recall old texts describing a land called Fusang. After spending a few weeks repairing the ship and interacting with natives, the crew returns via the North Equatorial Current, which drops them off in Ryukyu. They bring back one young native to prove they aren’t making stuff up. The Sinosphere becomes aware of the New World at this point, though there is little incentive to go there. The incident is noted in official histories but subsequently forgotten due to lack of interest. The native boy is ordained as a Buddhist monk in Kaifeng.

Second, the Jin conquest of the Liao is far more effective. They encircle the Liao heartland from the north and west, and despite the efforts of the prince Yelü Dashi, the capital falls and the imperial family is captured. The Jin decide to deport many of the people there, especially skilled artisans and tradesmen, to their capital. The important thing here is that the Jin cut off a westward route of escape for Dashi, who in OTL fled west to reestablish the dynasty. Instead, a brief opening in the Jin defenses appears as they shift focus towards fighting the Song, so Dashi marches east to rescue his emperor. What ensues is a couple years of guerrilla warfare as his troops raid Jin forts and close in on the Jin capital.

Third, the Jin are far more brutal in their siege of Kaifeng due to both being annoyed by continued Liao resistance and the people of Kaifeng resisting even more. Not only are the Song imperial family and their court captured and deported to Manchuria, but most of the city’s population is too (including the now middle-aged or elderly indigenous monk), to be resettled in the Jin capital. The Song are unable to rescue them as the military is in disarray (since they let the Jin get all the way to Kaifeng to begin with) and the only Song prince to escape is still consolidating power. No help is going to come to the captives.

All three factions converge on the Jin capital. The Song imperials are brought into contact with the Liao imperials as part of the Jin humiliations, but when they learn Dashi’s army is on its way, they decide to put aside their past grievances and join forces against the Jin. After defeating the Jin armies, Dashi’s army proceeds to sack the capital and free both imperial families, their courts, and the resettled populations of their capitals. However, Jin reinforcements cut off their westward route back to China, and the Jin court quickly recovers from the sack (as they had multiple capitals and the emperor was already planning to move south into China proper like they did in OTL). So they are forced to instead flee south into Goryeo, bringing with them a lot of Balhae refugees in the area. Goryeo initially welcomes them just as they did the survivors of Balhae’s royal family, but the Jin, considering Goryeo their tributary now, demands the imperial families be deported back on pain of invasion. Goryeo has no choice but to follow through.

Before they can act on it, the refugees steal as many ships from the Goryeo navy as they can as well as paying off many merchants with loot from the Jin capital and what remains of their treasuries. The initial plan is to sail down to the Southern Song, but the Song emperor realizes that the new emperor in charge, his brother, wouldn’t tolerate him as a rival claimant, and he lacks the military strength to press his claim. Instead, he and the Liao decide to head to northern Japan to build up a stronghold in preparation for challenging the Southern Song and the Jin. Many of the civilians either stay in Goryeo or are delivered to the Southern Song to improve Goryeo’s relations with them. Some stay with the courts as they relocated to Japan.

In Japan, they’re initially welcomed by the Northern Fujiwara clan, who invite them to settle in their recently renovated capital of Hiraizumi to help build it up as a new political and cultural center to rival Kyoto. While the refugees take them up on their offer, a rift emerges between the Song and Liao courts, which fear they are being made into Fujiwara puppets and that their people are being Japanized, and the Fujiwara, which feared the newcomers would depose them and then march south on the Japanese emperor’s court in Kyoto. A compromise is reached where the dissatisfied royals and their supporters are granted ships and permitted to leave the Fujiwara domains for new lands. Some local Japanese and Emishi (this comment is getting too long, so I’m not going to go into detail about who exactly the Emishi were in OTL) decide to go with them, including a lot of Buddhist monks (who join the Song, Liao, and Korean monks) and some younger Fujiwara sons. An attempt to settle in Ainu Mosir horribly fails with heavy casualties, which leaves the courts with few other options until the old monk recalls his youth in his homeland, reminding everybody of the records of Fusang that had been ignored for decades. With nowhere else to go, they set out to the east of Japan and promptly disappear from East Asian records. Those who stayed in Japan are mostly assimilated into Japanese society over the next few decades, and the remaining distinct non-Japanese communities are destroyed and scattered across the Tohoku region when Hiraizumi and the Northern Fujiwara were destroyed by the Minamoto clan in 1189. Still, they left enough of a trace for Jin, Later Jin, and Goryeo to lay claim to at least northern Japan in later centuries.

So that’s how the Han Chinese Song, Khitan Liao, Fujiwara, and a lot of Koreans, Balhae people, and Japanese end up in the Pacific Northwest. The people from Kaifeng and the Liao capital help get a new city started, preserving as much Song culture and technology as they remember. The Koreans, Balhae people, and Japanese pitch in. The Liao emperor passes away, and since all of his sons were killed in the Jin conquest and many of his daughters married off to Song princes by the Jin, the Liao court submits to the Song emperor (who still has a male heir). Angered at this apparent betrayal, Dashi takes his troops and leaves the city to establish his own empire somewhere else, as do the Fujiwara sons. Many other civilians do the same, resulting in the Pacific Northwest being a mix of Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Balhae, Khitan, Ainu, and Emishi settlements. The monk, coincidentally finding his original tribe after so long, begins sharing the Buddha’s teachings with the natives of Fusang.

Most people stay in the new Song capital, which in later years is called Hongzhou. Over the next few decades, the new Song state expands down the coast and eventually reaches the Jinshan Bay, which is initially used as a base for merchant ships and their naval escorts heading south to commercial centers in Mesoamerica. In the mid-12th century, the Song state makes contact with the emerging Mexica Empire, but relations are purely business as the Chinese are appalled by the empire’s brutality and rapid expansion. So the merchants decide to look further south for more trade partners and potential allies against this future threat, until they arrive in the Quechua lands in the late 12th century and find a promising leader named Manco Capac. When hostilities inevitably break out with the Mexica Empire, the emerging kingdom of Cusco and later Tawantinsuyu turn any attempted invasions of Fusang into a two-front war. Culturally, Buddhist monks attempt to convert the subject peoples of the Mexica Empire if not the Nahua and their nobility, though progress is slow until the Sunset Invasion begins.

Dashi and his troops eventually cross the Rockies/Fusang Range (rename pending probably) and emerge onto the Great Plains, where they meet with many indigenous people displaced by the Mexica expansion, particularly the Anasazi/Puebloans and the Diné (Navajo and Apache). Those who want to settle down with the Anasazi/Puebloans and establish a sedentary state settle in the north, laying the groundwork for the Ngaikien people (rename pending since there’d be a heavy Khitan cultural presence), while those who want to help the Diné continue the fight against the Mexica go south, eventually migrating into the territory of the Zhumasi court.

Speaking of which, just because I have this new scenario doesn’t mean I can’t still use the previous one. Back in East Asia, most of history continues as previously discussed until the Mongols destroy the Jin. The four sons of Wanyan Yongji still flee ahead of the rest of the dynasty’s destruction by the Mongols. However, one settles in Goryeo and another in Japan, with two more leaving Japan across the Pacific after reading old historical records of the Song and Liao refugees. One runs into the Song court in Hongzhou and is allowed to stay there after swearing fealty to the emperor. He is assigned the Jinshan Bay region as his fief, and he gives it the name of Jinshan. Another settles in the south and enlists the help of the local natives and the arriving Khitan-Diné to build his own state and fight the Mexica.

Once the Song state becomes aware of the new Jin state’s existence, they agree to form an alliance against the Mexica as a greater threat, and the Song use the Jin territories as another stopping point on the trade routes to Tawantinsuyu. As the Jin become intermediaries in the wars with the Mexica and alliance with Tawantinsuyu, they become the most prominent member of the Sinosphere to the Mexica, which pass it on to the Reich. As time goes on, the Zhumasi court becomes heavily dependent on the Khitans/Diné for military protection, until the Khitans/Diné decide to cut out the middleman and install their Liao leader on the throne. However, the Liao state is subsequently absorbed into the Song state (the “Navajo” march being annexed by “Jin” in the game) and then conquered by the Mexica, which is how the Mexica get as far as Jinshan in that one war. Once the Song take it all back, the Liao and Jin survivors are granted fiefs of their own in safer territories, and their former domains are fully integrated as new provinces.

The end result is that I’d have to change all references of “Jin” to “Song,” but the final unified Fusang dynasty would still follow the same general historical path, and this allows me to send a lot of Japanese and Koreans to the New World ahead of the colonization wave of the early modern era once contact with East Asia is reestablished. I can even preserve the Liao Dynasty, Balhae, and part of the Fujiwara clan in the process (though the Fujiwara never quite went away, just split into multiple cadet branches in OTL and presumably here too). I’ll pretend the Mongol-name cities are Khitan ones (rename pending) because we have very little evidence about the Khitan language.

As an aside, I recently picked up a Korean manhwa called “Wild West Murim,” which is a western set in an alternate history where the Han Dynasty didn’t fall and instead colonized the Americas. I can imagine similar scenarios playing out in the Fusang frontier lands, especially with the Khitan/Diné going around.

Given how the Spanish Empire was crippled by inflation in OTL, how would the Reich and other colonial empires avoid that fate during the age of exploration, and what empires might experience that kind of inflation?

Funny enough, most of the gold and silver producing regions of the Eimericas would be outside of Roman colonial control, so the Reich would focus on extracting other resources. I guess they could have gotten a lot of gold after sacking Tenochtitlan, but that would be a one-time cash infusion and at the very end of the colonial era anyways. Maybe it could play into the economic crisis of 1836 somehow.

Most of the gold and silver would either circulate within Eimerican economies (between the Muisca, Mexica, Mayans, Meskwaki, and minor powers) or fall into the Fusang and later mainland Chinese economic sphere. Tawantinsuyu’s silver initially goes to Fusang in exchange for weapons and horses to fight the Mexica. The gold of Fusang also initially circulates among the Song state and its neighbors.

Once contact is reestablished, a lot of that gold and silver is delivered across the Pacific, using the same currents the OTL Spanish did, to Qiandao and Ryukyu and then to markets in East Asia to trade for manufactured goods and other resources that are hard to come by in the Eimericas. This makes Ryukyu very wealthy as a middleman for the rest of Asia, and they use their wealth to fund a larger military to defend their independence. Eager to get around Ryukyu’s monopoly, the Ming and Tran establish trade outposts and later kongsi states and then full colonies in Qiandao. Korea and Japan have no luck, but Korea pulls ahead of Japan by having a lot more manufactured goods to sell to the Fusang merchants, a supply chain to produce them, and a more educated population due to the Hangul printing press (oh and their conquest of Kyushu shutting out most Japanese merchants from the easier Ryukyu trade routes).

Vietnam benefits most from this trade due to its more developed and proto-industrial economy, but the Ming don’t miss out either. The gold and silver they get further fuels their socioeconomic development, allowing the Ming to gradually reclaim many of the economic innovations and development of the Song era. This gives its military an edge over the Mongols and Jurchens, and an expanded budget allows it to pay settlers and administrators to directly settle and integrate the lands to the north to permanently end the nomad threat.

Also I wonder how paper currency would catch on in this TTL and when would countries start moving away from the gold standard?

The Sinosphere states (except Japan since it has a lot of copper) would probably be the first to adopt paper currency again. The Ming would have a vested interest in stopping the outflow of copper coins in transactions with copper-poor regions like Mongolia and Manchuria, and Goryeo would have the same issue. The widespread adoption of the printing press facilitates the use of banknotes that can be mass printed without needing movable type. The Tran do the same thing, and all three eventually tie their banknotes to the silver standard, amassing a large national reserve of Fusang silver to back it up. Ryukyu does the same on a smaller scale. The Fusang merchants issue promissory notes because the long journey between Asia and Fusang makes it very risky to transport coins back to Fusang, and banknotes eventually spread back to Fusang for the same reasons the Ming and Tran did (and because Fusang’s main copper mines are in OTL Utah, leaving the coast copper poor), but Tawantinsuyu is rich in copper and silver so they stick with copper and silver coins for a while. The eastern Eimerican states and the Meskwaki and Mexica Empires are rich in copper or have easy access to it, so they stick with coins too once they develop them, while Mayapan adopts banknotes as soon as it’s practical.

Just as in OTL, the Mongols spread paper money to Persia and Central Asia, and from there it eventually makes its way to India. Roman banks and merchant groups, meanwhile, started issuing promissory notes in the 12th-13th century because Mediterranean and Atlantic ship voyages were too dangerous to take hard currency, especially during the Sunset Invasion. As Roman economic integration continued through the same era, encouraged by the socioeconomic pressures and military threats of the 13th Century Crisis, bills of exchange became common. The Reich also incorporated many economic innovations, including promissory notes, loans (the Orthodox Church wasn’t as harsh on usury as the Catholic Church, which also helps with anti-Semitism to a degree), and checks, from the Islamic world after its conquest of the Middle East. The first banknotes in Europe emerged around the 16th century as in OTL when Roman and Scandinavian banks started issuing them before the governments took over and standardized circulation in the following century (in the Roman case, due to the chaos of the Anarchy and Fifty Years’ War). From there it spread to Lithuania and Rusia. The Reich gradually adopted a gold standard because of the large gold deposits it found in Neurhomania and Sudafrika, with the same happening in the Sinosphere as gold deposits in Penglai, Fusang, and China proper were exploited. A formal gold standard was established in the late 18th and early 19th century as part of an agreement between the Reich, India, and Sinosphere nations to set exchange rates based on how much gold each country had; just like the British gold standard of the late 19th century, many countries (like China and Tawantinsuyu) still used silver alongside gold. After the economic crises of the 1930s and the first two world wars made the gold standard impractical, it was gradually abandoned. The Reich and China, due to their historical gold and silver production, were the last to drop it.

I'd go with either using "Yue" and "Tran" interchangeably or just continue calling the empire Vietnam or "Dai Viet" to be vague.

Yeah, just like in OTL. I’ll probably go with Tran early on, then Yue, then Dai Viet, and ultimately Vietnam.

Oh god this post took me over 3 hours to write.

Edit 1/27/25: Turns out there's some copper in the Pacific Northwest.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

After doing more research on the Song and Jin and asking myself about the logistics of getting to Manco Capac and the news of a Sinicized Tawantinsuyu spreading to the Reich, a question popped into my head: what requires Fusang to be founded by those three specific Jin princes and not anybody sooner? Then I realized there’s nothing requiring me to set the “East Asia” point of divergence at the Mongol conquests.

So I read up on the history of the Song earlier today and found another historical event I could possibly use: the fall of the Liao Dynasty from 1120–1125 and the Jingkang Incident of 1127, which saw the Jin sacking Kaifeng, though they generally spared the general public, and capturing nearly the entire Song imperial family and their court. These captives, along with surviving members of the Liao imperial family, were exiled to the Jin capital in Manchuria and sold off as servants and slaves to the Jin imperial family and their court, with the ex-emperors particularly humiliated. I am understating the details because they are pretty gruesome and I’d rather not put them in this thread. So how does this change in my scenario?

First, sometime in the late 11th century a Song merchant vessel bound for Japan accidentally gets swept out to sea by the Kuroshio Current and is stranded somewhere on the Pacific Northwest. (Again, no need for Muslim shipwrights as the Song ones were just as capable if not more so at the time, and today’s research reinforced that.) The more educated among them recall old texts describing a land called Fusang. After spending a few weeks repairing the ship and interacting with natives, the crew returns via the North Equatorial Current, which drops them off in Ryukyu. They bring back one young native to prove they aren’t making stuff up. The Sinosphere becomes aware of the New World at this point, though there is little incentive to go there. The incident is noted in official histories but subsequently forgotten due to lack of interest. The native boy is ordained as a Buddhist monk in Kaifeng.

Second, the Jin conquest of the Liao is far more effective. They encircle the Liao heartland from the north and west, and despite the efforts of the prince Yelü Dashi, the capital falls and the imperial family is captured. The Jin decide to deport many of the people there, especially skilled artisans and tradesmen, to their capital. The important thing here is that the Jin cut off a westward route of escape for Dashi, who in OTL fled west to reestablish the dynasty. Instead, a brief opening in the Jin defenses appears as they shift focus towards fighting the Song, so Dashi marches east to rescue his emperor. What ensues is a couple years of guerrilla warfare as his troops raid Jin forts and close in on the Jin capital.

Third, the Jin are far more brutal in their siege of Kaifeng due to both being annoyed by continued Liao resistance and the people of Kaifeng resisting even more. Not only are the Song imperial family and their court captured and deported to Manchuria, but most of the city’s population is too (including the now middle-aged or elderly indigenous monk), to be resettled in the Jin capital. The Song are unable to rescue them as the military is in disarray (since they let the Jin get all the way to Kaifeng to begin with) and the only Song prince to escape is still consolidating power. No help is going to come to the captives.

All three factions converge on the Jin capital. The Song imperials are brought into contact with the Liao imperials as part of the Jin humiliations, but when they learn Dashi’s army is on its way, they decide to put aside their past grievances and join forces against the Jin. After defeating the Jin armies, Dashi’s army proceeds to sack the capital and free both imperial families, their courts, and the resettled populations of their capitals. However, Jin reinforcements cut off their westward route back to China, and the Jin court quickly recovers from the sack (as they had multiple capitals and the emperor was already planning to move south into China proper like they did in OTL). So they are forced to instead flee south into Goryeo, bringing with them a lot of Balhae refugees in the area. Goryeo initially welcomes them just as they did the survivors of Balhae’s royal family, but the Jin, considering Goryeo their tributary now, demands the imperial families be deported back on pain of invasion. Goryeo has no choice but to follow through.

Before they can act on it, the refugees steal as many ships from the Goryeo navy as they can as well as paying off many merchants with loot from the Jin capital and what remains of their treasuries. The initial plan is to sail down to the Southern Song, but the Song emperor realizes that the new emperor in charge, his brother, wouldn’t tolerate him as a rival claimant, and he lacks the military strength to press his claim. Instead, he and the Liao decide to head to northern Japan to build up a stronghold in preparation for challenging the Southern Song and the Jin. Many of the civilians either stay in Goryeo or are delivered to the Southern Song to improve Goryeo’s relations with them. Some stay with the courts as they relocated to Japan.

In Japan, they’re initially welcomed by the Northern Fujiwara clan, who invite them to settle in their recently renovated capital of Hiraizumi to help build it up as a new political and cultural center to rival Kyoto. While the refugees take them up on their offer, a rift emerges between the Song and Liao courts, which fear they are being made into Fujiwara puppets and that their people are being Japanized, and the Fujiwara, which feared the newcomers would depose them and then march south on the Japanese emperor’s court in Kyoto. A compromise is reached where the dissatisfied royals and their supporters are granted ships and permitted to leave the Fujiwara domains for new lands. Some local Japanese and Emishi (this comment is getting too long, so I’m not going to go into detail about who exactly the Emishi were in OTL) decide to go with them, including a lot of Buddhist monks (who join the Song, Liao, and Korean monks) and some younger Fujiwara sons. An attempt to settle in Ainu Mosir horribly fails with heavy casualties, which leaves the courts with few other options until the old monk recalls his youth in his homeland, reminding everybody of the records of Fusang that had been ignored for decades. With nowhere else to go, they set out to the east of Japan and promptly disappear from East Asian records. Those who stayed in Japan are mostly assimilated into Japanese society over the next few decades, and the remaining distinct non-Japanese communities are destroyed and scattered across the Tohoku region when Hiraizumi and the Northern Fujiwara were destroyed by the Minamoto clan in 1189. Still, they left enough of a trace for Jin, Later Jin, and Goryeo to lay claim to at least northern Japan in later centuries.

So that’s how the Han Chinese Song, Khitan Liao, Fujiwara, and a lot of Koreans, Balhae people, and Japanese end up in the Pacific Northwest. The people from Kaifeng and the Liao capital help get a new city started, preserving as much Song culture and technology as they remember. The Koreans, Balhae people, and Japanese pitch in. The Liao emperor passes away, and since all of his sons were killed in the Jin conquest and many of his daughters married off to Song princes by the Jin, the Liao court submits to the Song emperor (who still has a male heir). Angered at this apparent betrayal, Dashi takes his troops and leaves the city to establish his own empire somewhere else, as do the Fujiwara sons. Many other civilians do the same, resulting in the Pacific Northwest being a mix of Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Balhae, Khitan, Ainu, and Emishi settlements. The monk, coincidentally finding his original tribe after so long, begins sharing the Buddha’s teachings with the natives of Fusang.

Most people stay in the new Song capital, which in later years is called Hongzhou. Over the next few decades, the new Song state expands down the coast and eventually reaches the Jinshan Bay, which is initially used as a base for merchant ships and their naval escorts heading south to commercial centers in Mesoamerica. In the mid-12th century, the Song state makes contact with the emerging Mexica Empire, but relations are purely business as the Chinese are appalled by the empire’s brutality and rapid expansion. So the merchants decide to look further south for more trade partners and potential allies against this future threat, until they arrive in the Quechua lands in the late 12th century and find a promising leader named Manco Capac. When hostilities inevitably break out with the Mexica Empire, the emerging kingdom of Cusco and later Tawantinsuyu turn any attempted invasions of Fusang into a two-front war. Culturally, Buddhist monks attempt to convert the subject peoples of the Mexica Empire if not the Nahua and their nobility, though progress is slow until the Sunset Invasion begins.

Dashi and his troops eventually cross the Rockies/Fusang Range (rename pending probably) and emerge onto the Great Plains, where they meet with many indigenous people displaced by the Mexica expansion, particularly the Anasazi/Puebloans and the Diné (Navajo and Apache). Those who want to settle down with the Anasazi/Puebloans and establish a sedentary state settle in the north, laying the groundwork for the Ngaikien people (rename pending since there’d be a heavy Khitan cultural presence), while those who want to help the Diné continue the fight against the Mexica go south, eventually migrating into the territory of the Zhumasi court.

Speaking of which, just because I have this new scenario doesn’t mean I can’t still use the previous one. Back in East Asia, most of history continues as previously discussed until the Mongols destroy the Jin. The four sons of Wanyan Yongji still flee ahead of the rest of the dynasty’s destruction by the Mongols. However, one settles in Goryeo and another in Japan, with two more leaving Japan across the Pacific after reading old historical records of the Song and Liao refugees. One runs into the Song court in Hongzhou and is allowed to stay there after swearing fealty to the emperor. He is assigned the Jinshan Bay region as his fief, and he gives it the name of Jinshan. Another settles in the south and enlists the help of the local natives and the arriving Khitan-Diné to build his own state and fight the Mexica.

Once the Song state becomes aware of the new Jin state’s existence, they agree to form an alliance against the Mexica as a greater threat, and the Song use the Jin territories as another stopping point on the trade routes to Tawantinsuyu. As the Jin become intermediaries in the wars with the Mexica and alliance with Tawantinsuyu, they become the most prominent member of the Sinosphere to the Mexica, which pass it on to the Reich. As time goes on, the Zhumasi court becomes heavily dependent on the Khitans/Diné for military protection, until the Khitans/Diné decide to cut out the middleman and install their Liao leader on the throne. However, the Liao state is subsequently absorbed into the Song state (the “Apache” march being annexed by “Jin” in the game) and then conquered by the Mexica, which is how the Mexica get as far as Jinshan in that one war. Once the Song take it all back, the Liao and Jin survivors are granted fiefs of their own in safer territories, and their former domains are fully integrated as new provinces.

The end result is that I’d have to change all references of “Jin” to “Song,” but the final unified Fusang dynasty would still follow the same general historical path, and this allows me to send a lot of Japanese and Koreans to the New World ahead of the colonization wave of the early modern era once contact with East Asia is reestablished. I can even preserve the Liao Dynasty, Balhae, and part of the Fujiwara clan in the process (though the Fujiwara never quite went away, just split into multiple cadet branches in OTL and presumably here too). I’ll pretend the Mongol-name cities are Khitan ones (rename pending) because we have very little evidence about the Khitan language.

As an aside, I recently picked up a Korean manhwa called “Wild West Murim,” which is a western set in an alternate history where the Han Dynasty didn’t fall and instead colonized the Americas. I can imagine similar scenarios playing out in the Fusang frontier lands, especially with the Khitan/Diné going around.

Funny enough, most of the gold and silver producing regions of the Eimericas would be outside of Roman colonial control, so the Reich would focus on extracting other resources. I guess they could have gotten a lot of gold after sacking Tenochtitlan, but that would be a one-time cash infusion and at the very end of the colonial era anyways. Maybe it could play into the economic crisis of 1836 somehow.

Most of the gold and silver would either circulate within Eimerican economies (between the Muisca, Mexica, Mayans, Meskwaki, and minor powers) or fall into the Fusang and later mainland Chinese economic sphere. Tawantinsuyu’s silver initially goes to Fusang in exchange for weapons and horses to fight the Mexica. The gold of Fusang also initially circulates among the Song state and its neighbors.

Once contact is reestablished, a lot of that gold and silver is delivered across the Pacific, using the same currents the OTL Spanish did, to Qiandao and Ryukyu and then to markets in East Asia to trade for manufactured goods and other resources that are hard to come by in the Eimericas. This makes Ryukyu very wealthy as a middleman for the rest of Asia, and they use their wealth to fund a larger military to defend their independence. Eager to get around Ryukyu’s monopoly, the Ming and Tran establish trade outposts and later kongsi states and then full colonies in Qiandao. Korea and Japan have no luck, but Korea pulls ahead of Japan by having a lot more manufactured goods to sell to the Fusang merchants, a supply chain to produce them, and a more educated population due to the Hangul printing press (oh and their conquest of Kyushu shutting out most Japanese merchants from the easier Ryukyu trade routes).

Vietnam benefits most from this trade due to its more developed and proto-industrial economy, but the Ming don’t miss out either. The gold and silver they get further fuels their socioeconomic development, allowing the Ming to gradually reclaim many of the economic innovations and development of the Song era. This gives its military an edge over the Mongols and Jurchens, and an expanded budget allows it to pay settlers and administrators to directly settle and integrate the lands to the north to permanently end the nomad threat.

The Sinosphere states (except Japan since it has a lot of copper) would probably be the first to adopt paper currency again. The Ming would have a vested interest in stopping the outflow of copper coins in transactions with copper-poor regions like Mongolia and Manchuria, and Goryeo would have the same issue. The widespread adoption of the printing press facilitates the use of banknotes that can be mass printed without needing movable type. The Tran do the same thing, and all three eventually tie their banknotes to the silver standard, amassing a large national reserve of Fusang silver to back it up. Ryukyu does the same on a smaller scale. The Fusang merchants issue promissory notes because the long journey between Asia and Fusang makes it very risky to transport coins back to Fusang, and banknotes eventually spread back to Fusang for the same reasons the Ming and Tran did (and because Fusang’s main copper mines are in OTL Utah, leaving the coast copper poor), but Tawantinsuyu is rich in copper and silver so they stick with copper and silver coins for a while. The eastern Eimerican states and the Meskwaki and Mexica Empires are rich in copper or have easy access to it, so they stick with coins too once they develop them, while Mayapan adopts banknotes as soon as it’s practical.

Just as in OTL, the Mongols spread paper money to Persia and Central Asia, and from there it eventually makes its way to India. Roman banks and merchant groups, meanwhile, started issuing promissory notes in the 12th-13th century because Mediterranean and Atlantic ship voyages were too dangerous to take hard currency, especially during the Sunset Invasion. As Roman economic integration continued through the same era, encouraged by the socioeconomic pressures and military threats of the 13th Century Crisis, bills of exchange became common. The Reich also incorporated many economic innovations, including promissory notes, loans (the Orthodox Church wasn’t as harsh on usury as the Catholic Church, which also helps with anti-Semitism to a degree), and checks, from the Islamic world after its conquest of the Middle East. The first banknotes in Europe emerged around the 16th century as in OTL when Roman and Scandinavian banks started issuing them before the governments took over and standardized circulation in the following century (in the Roman case, due to the chaos of the Anarchy and Fifty Years’ War). From there it spread to Lithuania and Rusia. The Reich gradually adopted a gold standard because of the large gold deposits it found in Neurhomania and Sudafrika, with the same happening in the Sinosphere as gold deposits in Penglai, Fusang, and China proper were exploited. A formal gold standard was established in the late 18th and early 19th century as part of an agreement between the Reich, India, and Sinosphere nations to set exchange rates based on how much gold each country had; just like the British gold standard of the late 19th century, many countries (like China and Tawantinsuyu) still used silver alongside gold. After the economic crises of the 1930s and the first two world wars made the gold standard impractical, it was gradually abandoned. The Reich and China, due to their historical gold and silver production, were the last to drop it.

Yeah, just like in OTL. I’ll probably go with Tran early on, then Yue, then Dai Viet, and ultimately Vietnam.

Oh god this post took me over 3 hours to write.

So would there be an opportunity for either the Jin or Liao to take over Fusang during a period of decentralization and instability, or would the Song rule over both Penglai and Fusang? Maybe Empress Catherine would start out as an empress consort or concubine for the Song emperor, then she and her son amass more power through political acumen and military success against the Mexica.

Moving on, I know you wanted to debunk popular myths surrounding the The Ninety-Five Theses, but I feel like someone like Girolamo Savonarola or the Fifth Monarchist leaders would be a better fit for the Third Iconoclasm movement then Martin Luther.

 

[zenphoenix]

So that’s how the Han Chinese Song, Khitan Liao, Fujiwara, and a lot of Koreans, Balhae people, and Japanese end up in the Pacific Northwest.

I just remembered, since I deported much of Kaifeng's population to Fusang, this also means a lot of the first wave of Kaifeng Jews could have ended up in the New World alongside everybody else. While the early generations of Jews stayed in Hongzhou, establishing a thriving community, many later Jews served as merchants and set up small communities in the ports they traded at. A few followed Dashi's example and migrated out of the Song imperial core to establish independent settlements elsewhere in Fusang. I imagine there'd be a lot of confusion when they run across the European Jews who escaped Mexica slavery.

I'll do the same for Chinese Manichaeans, since it's possible there could have been small communities in Kaifeng. For Christians, though, the Church of the East had been mostly purged from China in the last years of the Tang and then entirely disappeared after the collapse of the Tang, so there probably weren't any major Christian communities in 1127 Kaifeng. However, there is some evidence to suggest there were Christians among the Liao, so they could have been brought to Fusang with the Khitans. Once they're in the New World, they and the Manichaeans follow much the same path as the Jews before branching out to establish their own settlements. Perhaps some of the Fusang Christian cities I put on the map were founded by them. While the Jews eagerly welcomed the European Jews who fled Mexica slavery, the early Fusang Christians had significant theological disagreements with the European Christians, as the Church of the East wasn't in communion with the Roman Orthodox Church, leading to the two sides developing a rivalry. In the early modern era, the arrival of new Asian Christians (both emigrants from Asia and converts in Fusang) who were adherents of the Roman church further worsened this rivalry until the Fusang government fully brought all of the Christian settlements under direct control. The Zoroastrians of Persia would see the Manichaeans as their long lost brethren, though they disagreed on a lot of things and occasionally came into conflict as a result.

Finally, there were Chinese Muslims in the Kaifeng area around the late 11th and early 12th century. They were Bukharan Arabs invited to help defend the frontier regions against the Liao. Their leader claimed descent from the Prophet Muhammad, and while I can't pin down his exact age in 1127 (or if he was still alive), I can just have a son of his be captured in the Jingkang Incident, then help rebuild the Islamic community in Fusang. Most Roman Muslims who escaped Mexica slavery would end up integrating into this community, though a few sectarian divisions emerge. Just as their ancestors did in China and the Middle East, these Muslims also participated in trade, particularly the trans-Pacific trade routes, and preserved bits of Islam in Maritime Southeast Asia, particularly among the trade outposts of Qiandao and on the northern coast of Penglai. But they don't make much progress on that front, since India patronizes Hindu rulers, Vietnam and China prop up Buddhists and local kongsi leaders (in Vietnam's case, also Hindus because there are a lot of Hindus in the Tran continental domains), the Roman and Ethiopian churches have expanded into the Indonesian islands, and the Zoroastrian Persians are pretty hostile to them due to their past history.

That's about it for that addition, but this morning I also thought about the founding of Yavdi and how exactly that aberration came to exist. From what I could figure out through my screenshots, there was a Yavdian state on the game map by the early 12th century. I've interpreted it as a Cuman-style tribal confederation of Finno-Ugric peoples led by Finns (and the Sami since I want to give them more stuff) migrating east to escape Norse expansion. The House of Yavdi (since the founding king was just called "Yavdi" in my save file) eventually dies out, encouraging the confederation to centralize along Novgorodian lines as a noble-led republic, and their king adopts the title of knyaz. Yavdi is heavily influenced by the Mongol Empire after the knyaz swears fealty to Genghis Khan to avoid being destroyed like the Cumans were. As a result, the knyaz also adopts the title of khan. The noble republic comes to an end when the post-Golden Horde khanates of the western steppes turn their attention north and subjugate Yavdi, only to maintain existing political and cultural institutions out of practicality. The Cossacks also begin migrating out of Rusia and onto the steppes at this time, further adding to Yavdi's unique culture. By the 15th century, Yavdi has fully centralized under the Toghorilid dynasty, adopting a political system similar to those of Rusia and the Reich. The knyaz-khan declares himself both Tsar and Khagan. After sorting out its internal affairs, it begins expanding east into the lands it called "Yugra," as its kings believed they had the right to rule the Finno-Ugric peoples there and also wanted its natural resources.

So would there be an opportunity for either the Jin or Liao to take over Fusang during a period of decentralization and instability, or would the Song rule over both Penglai and Fusang? Maybe Empress Catherine would start out as an empress consort or concubine for the Song emperor, then she and her son amass more power through political acumen and military success against the Mexica.

No, this is in line with the Chinese practice of a dynasty granting the survivors of the previous dynasty noble titles and a small fief to rule over. But I did consider having Catherine being either a Jin or Liao princess or concubine who temporarily usurped power for herself in the same style as Wu Zetian due to the massive territorial gains by the Mexica against the Song under her predecessor, before the Song reasserted power after her death. I'll have to think more about it.

Moving on, I know you wanted to debunk popular myths surrounding the The Ninety-Five Theses, but I feel like someone like Girolamo Savonarola or the Fifth Monarchist leaders would be a better fit for the Third Iconoclasm movement then Martin Luther.

I'll definitely look more into Savonarola and other figures of the Protestant Reformation, but when I get there I'll probably use an original name.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

I just remembered, since I deported much of Kaifeng's population to Fusang, this also means a lot of the first wave of Kaifeng Jews could have ended up in the New World alongside everybody else. While the early generations of Jews stayed in Hongzhou, establishing a thriving community, many later Jews served as merchants and set up small communities in the ports they traded at. A few followed Dashi's example and migrated out of the Song imperial core to establish independent settlements elsewhere in Fusang. I imagine there'd be a lot of confusion when they run across the European Jews who escaped Mexica slavery.

I'll do the same for Chinese Manichaeans, since it's possible there could have been small communities in Kaifeng. For Christians, though, the Church of the East had been mostly purged from China in the last years of the Tang and then entirely disappeared after the collapse of the Tang, so there probably weren't any major Christian communities in 1127 Kaifeng. However, there is some evidence to suggest there were Christians among the Liao, so they could have been brought to Fusang with the Khitans. Once they're in the New World, they and the Manichaeans follow much the same path as the Jews before branching out to establish their own settlements. Perhaps some of the Fusang Christian cities I put on the map were founded by them. While the Jews eagerly welcomed the European Jews who fled Mexica slavery, the early Fusang Christians had significant theological disagreements with the European Christians, as the Church of the East wasn't in communion with the Roman Orthodox Church, leading to the two sides developing a rivalry. In the early modern era, the arrival of new Asian Christians (both emigrants from Asia and converts in Fusang) who were adherents of the Roman church further worsened this rivalry until the Fusang government fully brought all of the Christian settlements under direct control. The Zoroastrians of Persia would see the Manichaeans as their long lost brethren, though they disagreed on a lot of things and occasionally came into conflict as a result.

Finally, there were Chinese Muslims in the Kaifeng area around the late 11th and early 12th century. They were Bukharan Arabs invited to help defend the frontier regions against the Liao. Their leader claimed descent from the Prophet Muhammad, and while I can't pin down his exact age in 1127 (or if he was still alive), I can just have a son of his be captured in the Jingkang Incident, then help rebuild the Islamic community in Fusang. Most Roman Muslims who escaped Mexica slavery would end up integrating into this community, though a few sectarian divisions emerge. Just as their ancestors did in China and the Middle East, these Muslims also participated in trade, particularly the trans-Pacific trade routes, and preserved bits of Islam in Maritime Southeast Asia, particularly among the trade outposts of Qiandao and on the northern coast of Penglai. But they don't make much progress on that front, since India patronizes Hindu rulers, Vietnam and China prop up Buddhists and local kongsi leaders (in Vietnam's case, also Hindus because there are a lot of Hindus in the Tran continental domains), the Roman and Ethiopian churches have expanded into the Indonesian islands, and the Zoroastrian Persians are pretty hostile to them due to their past history.

That's about it for that addition, but this morning I also thought about the founding of Yavdi and how exactly that aberration came to exist. From what I could figure out through my screenshots, there was a Yavdian state on the game map by the early 12th century. I've interpreted it as a Cuman-style tribal confederation of Finno-Ugric peoples led by Finns (and the Sami since I want to give them more stuff) migrating east to escape Norse expansion. The House of Yavdi (since the founding king was just called "Yavdi" in my save file) eventually dies out, encouraging the confederation to centralize along Novgorodian lines as a noble-led republic, and their king adopts the title of knyaz. Yavdi is heavily influenced by the Mongol Empire after the knyaz swears fealty to Genghis Khan to avoid being destroyed like the Cumans were. As a result, the knyaz also adopts the title of khan. The noble republic comes to an end when the post-Golden Horde khanates of the western steppes turn their attention north and subjugate Yavdi, only to maintain existing political and cultural institutions out of practicality. The Cossacks also begin migrating out of Rusia and onto the steppes at this time, further adding to Yavdi's unique culture. By the 15th century, Yavdi has fully centralized under the Toghorilid dynasty, adopting a political system similar to those of Rusia and the Reich. The knyaz-khan declares himself both Tsar and Khagan. After sorting out its internal affairs, it begins expanding east into the lands it called "Yugra," as its kings believed they had the right to rule the Finno-Ugric peoples there and also wanted its natural resources.

No, this is in line with the Chinese practice of a dynasty granting the survivors of the previous dynasty noble titles and a small fief to rule over. But I did consider having Catherine being either a Jin or Liao princess or concubine who temporarily usurped power for herself in the same style as Wu Zetian due to the massive territorial gains by the Mexica against the Song under her predecessor, before the Song reasserted power after her death. I'll have to think more about it.

I'll definitely look more into Savonarola and other figures of the Protestant Reformation, but when I get there I'll probably use an original name.

The influx of people to the new world and the transatlantic interactions of the Sunset Invasion now makes me wonder how devastating and widespread the black death would be in TTL compared to even OTL? I even considered the idea of the black death causing Fusang to decentralize and split apart into competing Hongzhou, Jinshan, and Zhumasi states, but then that might be edging to close too the virgin soil theory.

 

[zenphoenix]

The influx of people to the new world and the transatlantic interactions of the Sunset Invasion now makes me wonder how devastating and widespread the black death would be in TTL compared to even OTL? I even considered the idea of the black death causing Fusang to decentralize and split apart into competing Hongzhou, Jinshan, and Zhumasi states, but then that might be edging to close too the virgin soil theory.

It would also be rehashing the same event from the Annionaverse. On that note, I’m reading up on the spread of bubonic plague and why it has such high fatality rates, and a lot of the reasons provided are similar to the reasons why indigenous peoples were so susceptible to smallpox: harsher weather, famine, warfare, economic slumps, and smaller harvests all fed into each other at the end of the Medieval Warm Period and beginning of the Little Ice Age to weaken European immune systems. Most of those economic and climatological circumstances were limited to Eurasia, as scientists haven’t found much evidence of a significant cooling period in the New World at the same time, or at least in the 14th century. While it’s possible that the Mexica could have brought back infected slaves and soldiers, it probably would have had lower fatality rates than in Europe aside from regions that were active battlefields. Still more dangerous than the smallpox epidemic that hit the Mexica Empire in the mid-1200s, but once again it wouldn't be apocalyptic. I'd say there's a fatality rate of about 15-20% as opposed to Europe's 25-60%. Due to better medical knowledge, Fusang survives the plague much better, though there may be a few rebellions as some groups decide the emperor has lost the Mandate of Heaven. Same thing happened when smallpox reached them—though Fusang itself would have introduced smallpox in the late 12th century and started a small epidemic across the continent, making the 13th century epidemic much less effective.

 

[GhostRider124]

Goryeo is still Goryeo because the Korean emperors never seriously entertained the idea of founding their own Chinese dynasty, despite all of their claims of descent from one dynasty or another—instead, they use their claims to justify the conquest of Manchuria.

That's funny since the Victoria 2 mod Throne of Lorraine has a Korean tribe known as the Buyeo take the mandate of heaven. If something like the Red Flood mod happens in TTL I can see some nationalistic Koreans try to do just that.

The monk, coincidentally finding his original tribe after so long, begins sharing the Buddha’s teachings with the natives of Fusang.

I'm just imagining this playing out with many of the members of his former tribe just looking at him and thinking "what have you been smoking?" that is until those very Chinese show up that is.

The end result is that I’d have to change all references of “Jin” to “Song,” but the final unified Fusang dynasty would still follow the same general historical path, and this allows me to send a lot of Japanese and Koreans to the New World ahead of the colonization wave of the early modern era once contact with East Asia is reestablished. I can even preserve the Liao Dynasty, Balhae, and part of the Fujiwara clan in the process (though the Fujiwara never quite went away, just split into multiple cadet branches in OTL and presumably here too). I’ll pretend the Mongol-name cities are Khitan ones (rename pending) because we have very little evidence about the Khitan language.

No, this is in line with the Chinese practice of a dynasty granting the survivors of the previous dynasty noble titles and a small fief to rule over.

So early Fusang would consist of a Song state in Hongzhou, a Jin state in the south and a Khitan state beyond the Rocky Mountains?

Oh god this post took me over 3 hours to write.

On the positive side both this post and the January 1st post about the Tran are great introductions on how Asian colonization got started.

I'll do the same for Chinese Manichaeans, since it's possible there could have been small communities in Kaifeng. For Christians, though, the Church of the East had been mostly purged from China in the last years of the Tang and then entirely disappeared after the collapse of the Tang, so there probably weren't any major Christian communities in 1127 Kaifeng. However, there is some evidence to suggest there were Christians among the Liao, so they could have been brought to Fusang with the Khitans. Once they're in the New World, they and the Manichaeans follow much the same path as the Jews before branching out to establish their own settlements. Perhaps some of the Fusang Christian cities I put on the map were founded by them. While the Jews eagerly welcomed the European Jews who fled Mexica slavery, the early Fusang Christians had significant theological disagreements with the European Christians, as the Church of the East wasn't in communion with the Roman Orthodox Church, leading to the two sides developing a rivalry. In the early modern era, the arrival of new Asian Christians (both emigrants from Asia and converts in Fusang) who were adherents of the Roman church further worsened this rivalry until the Fusang government fully brought all of the Christian settlements under direct control. The Zoroastrians of Persia would see the Manichaeans as their long lost brethren, though they disagreed on a lot of things and occasionally came into conflict as a result.

Finally, there were Chinese Muslims in the Kaifeng area around the late 11th and early 12th century. They were Bukharan Arabs invited to help defend the frontier regions against the Liao. Their leader claimed descent from the Prophet Muhammad, and while I can't pin down his exact age in 1127 (or if he was still alive), I can just have a son of his be captured in the Jingkang Incident, then help rebuild the Islamic community in Fusang. Most Roman Muslims who escaped Mexica slavery would end up integrating into this community, though a few sectarian divisions emerge. Just as their ancestors did in China and the Middle East, these Muslims also participated in trade, particularly the trans-Pacific trade routes, and preserved bits of Islam in Maritime Southeast Asia, particularly among the trade outposts of Qiandao and on the northern coast of Penglai. But they don't make much progress on that front, since India patronizes Hindu rulers, Vietnam and China prop up Buddhists and local kongsi leaders (in Vietnam's case, also Hindus because there are a lot of Hindus in the Tran continental domains), the Roman and Ethiopian churches have expanded into the Indonesian islands, and the Zoroastrian Persians are pretty hostile to them due to their past history.

With all of this religious tension in Fusang's boarder regions it reminds me of the conflicts of Bleeding Kansas between 1854 to 1859 but in this case them being religious conflicts instead of over slavery.

That's about it for that addition, but this morning I also thought about the founding of Yavdi and how exactly that aberration came to exist. From what I could figure out through my screenshots, there was a Yavdian state on the game map by the early 12th century. I've interpreted it as a Cuman-style tribal confederation of Finno-Ugric peoples led by Finns (and the Sami since I want to give them more stuff) migrating east to escape Norse expansion. The House of Yavdi (since the founding king was just called "Yavdi" in my save file) eventually dies out, encouraging the confederation to centralize along Novgorodian lines as a noble-led republic, and their king adopts the title of knyaz. Yavdi is heavily influenced by the Mongol Empire after the knyaz swears fealty to Genghis Khan to avoid being destroyed like the Cumans were. As a result, the knyaz also adopts the title of khan. The noble republic comes to an end when the post-Golden Horde khanates of the western steppes turn their attention north and subjugate Yavdi, only to maintain existing political and cultural institutions out of practicality. The Cossacks also begin migrating out of Rusia and onto the steppes at this time, further adding to Yavdi's unique culture. By the 15th century, Yavdi has fully centralized under the Toghorilid dynasty, adopting a political system similar to those of Rusia and the Reich. The knyaz-khan declares himself both Tsar and Khagan. After sorting out its internal affairs, it begins expanding east into the lands it called "Yugra," as its kings believed they had the right to rule the Finno-Ugric peoples there and also wanted its natural resources.

I kind of like the parallels to actual history in that Yavdi being similar to OTL's Moscow in how it used the destruction of the Cuman's by the Mongol Empire to try and become the new power in the region. Like how Moscow did after the fall of the Kievan Rus' in OTL.

Also I don't know if this was talked about in a previous discussion but if the Mongols still formed and invaded the Reich then how could Rusia be unified by Kiev instead of Moscow in TTL since Kiev would be in the Mongols way?

 

[CaptainAlvious]

With all of this religious tension in Fusang's boarder regions it reminds me of the conflicts of Bleeding Kansas between 1854 to 1859 but in this case them being religious conflicts instead of over slavery.

On the topic of the general crisis and the Little Ice Age, now I'm wondering if there would be other large scale religious wars like the OTL European wars of religion besides the Fifty Years war? I guess Saltuk's wars against the Reich and anti Muslim purges continued by his daughter could count as an early example of this, then we have the rise and fall of the Shiba shogunate and the colonization of Japan, and I suppose the Commonwealth wars would be akin to the Swedish/Polish Deluge and Times of Trouble.

 

[zenphoenix]

That's funny since the Victoria 2 mod Throne of Lorraine has a Korean tribe known as the Buyeo take the mandate of heaven. If something like the Red Flood mod happens in TTL I can see some nationalistic Koreans try to do just that.

Which is funny because Buyeo was destroyed as a political entity in 494 CE, though Goryeo (once again, to nobody’s surprise) claimed descent from them. Even while it existed it was in no position to claim the Mandate of Heaven. But I definitely agree there would be nationalists calling for Goryeo to usurp the Ming. They’d still be on the fringes as the Goryeo monarchs, despite calling themselves emperor and Sons of Heaven, envisioned themselves as rulers of a separate empire.

I'm just imagining this playing out with many of the members of his former tribe just looking at him and thinking "what have you been smoking?" that is until those very Chinese show up that is.

By the only his friends from his youth would still be alive, and they’d have all thought he died sailing into the sunset long ago. His miraculous return might make his teachings more receptive to his tribe.

So early Fusang would consist of a Song state in Hongzhou, a Jin state in the south and a Khitan state beyond the Rocky Mountains?

The Song state is based in in Hongzhou, with various coastal settlements and trade outposts down to Jinshan, inland cities along the rivers, and agricultural villages in the Willamette Valley and the northern Central Valley. The Khitans split into multiple groups east of the Cascades and Rockies, with a sedentary group helping rebuild Puebloan civilization in the Nebraska/South Dakota region along Liao lines and the rest remaining as nomads alongside the Diné until they migrate into the Jin domains in Southern California due to minor shifts in climate due to the Little Ice Age (which in OTL were suggested as one reason why the Anasazi civilization declined). Then there are various independent settlements and small kingdoms of various religions and cultures which would be lumped in with the ikki of the early modern era.

On the positive side both this post and the January 1st post about the Tran are great introductions on how Asian colonization got started.

It really boils down to “they had no reason to, so I’ll force them to do it.”

With all of this religious tension in Fusang's boarder regions it reminds me of the conflicts of Bleeding Kansas between 1854 to 1859 but in this case them being religious conflicts instead of over slavery.

Also the conflicts between the Boers and British colonists in South Africa.

I kind of like the parallels to actual history in that Yavdi being similar to OTL's Moscow in how it used the destruction of the Cuman's by the Mongol Empire to try and become the new power in the region. Like how Moscow did after the fall of the Kievan Rus' in OTL.

It was more a survival tactic than getting ahead. They saw what happened to the Cumans when they resisted and didn’t want it to happen to them too, so they bent the knee (like the OTL Koreans and Vietnamese) until they could declare independence again.

Also I don't know if this was talked about in a previous discussion but if the Mongols still formed and invaded the Reich then how could Rusia be unified by Kiev instead of Moscow in TTL since Kiev would be in the Mongols way?

Kyiv was the political and cultural center of the East Slavs since before the 11th century. It was the Mongols conquering and sacking Kyiv in OTL that led to the city’s decline and Moscow filling in the void. I could just have the Tsar of Rus’ bend the knee like the knyaz of Yavdi did, thus sparing Kyiv a sack. Then once the Mongol Empire begins fragmenting, Rus’ breaks free. Moscow remains a minor town.

On the topic of the general crisis and the Little Ice Age, now I'm wondering if there would be other large scale religious wars like the OTL European wars of religion besides the Fifty Years war? I guess Saltuk's wars against the Reich and anti Muslim purges continued by his daughter could count as an early example of this, then we have the rise and fall of the Shiba shogunate and the colonization of Japan, and I suppose the Commonwealth wars would be akin to the Swedish/Polish Deluge and Times of Trouble.

I can’t think of any at the moment if you specifically want religious wars. But Scandinavia might have trouble in its northern regions, leading to Sami rebellions that are supported by Yavdi. Colder temperatures and harsher weather also interrupt the shipping lanes with its North Eimerican colony, which also might have some trouble with agriculture that ultimately boil over in the Kanatan Revolution. As its former Finno-Ugric homelands become colder and more difficult to support large populations, Yavdians migrate south onto the steppes and east across the Urals to get new resources like furs.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Kyiv was the political and cultural center of the East Slavs since before the 11th century. It was the Mongols conquering and sacking Kyiv in OTL that led to the city’s decline and Moscow filling in the void. I could just have the Tsar of Rus’ bend the knee like the knyaz of Yavdi did, thus sparing Kyiv a sack. Then once the Mongol Empire begins fragmenting, Rus’ breaks free. Moscow remains a minor town.

That's about it for that addition, but this morning I also thought about the founding of Yavdi and how exactly that aberration came to exist. From what I could figure out through my screenshots, there was a Yavdian state on the game map by the early 12th century. I've interpreted it as a Cuman-style tribal confederation of Finno-Ugric peoples led by Finns (and the Sami since I want to give them more stuff) migrating east to escape Norse expansion. The House of Yavdi (since the founding king was just called "Yavdi" in my save file) eventually dies out, encouraging the confederation to centralize along Novgorodian lines as a noble-led republic, and their king adopts the title of knyaz. Yavdi is heavily influenced by the Mongol Empire after the knyaz swears fealty to Genghis Khan to avoid being destroyed like the Cumans were. As a result, the knyaz also adopts the title of khan. The noble republic comes to an end when the post-Golden Horde khanates of the western steppes turn their attention north and subjugate Yavdi, only to maintain existing political and cultural institutions out of practicality. The Cossacks also begin migrating out of Rusia and onto the steppes at this time, further adding to Yavdi's unique culture. By the 15th century, Yavdi has fully centralized under the Toghorilid dynasty, adopting a political system similar to those of Rusia and the Reich. The knyaz-khan declares himself both Tsar and Khagan. After sorting out its internal affairs, it begins expanding east into the lands it called "Yugra," as its kings believed they had the right to rule the Finno-Ugric peoples there and also wanted its natural resources.

Since the prince of Moscow was often elected to be the prince of Novgorod, I wonder if there would have been instances in Yavdi's history where the Tsar/Knyaz of Kyiv was elected to be the kynaz of Yavdi during the noble republic period, possibly leading to more Cossacks settling in Yavdi?

Anyways, since Baghdad avoided being sacked by the Mongols and Timurids and western Persia remained unconquered by the Mongols, I wonder how devasting the Timurid invasions and Saltuk's sack of Baghdad, or Saltuk's wars in general, would be here? I assume Timur and Saltuk would carry on the OTL Timurid and Safavid practice of deporting skilled captives like artisans and intellectuals to their homelands to enrich their empires. As for other socio-economic factors that would hit the Reich, I'm sure it wouldn't be as damaging to the Reich as it was to the Islamic world, but I could see it playing a role in the lead up to the Anarchy and the Fifty Years War.

 

[zenphoenix]

Since the prince of Moscow was often elected to be the prince of Novgorod, I wonder if there would have been instances in Yavdi's history where the Tsar/Knyaz of Kyiv was elected to be the kynaz of Yavdi during the noble republic period, possibly leading to more Cossacks settling in Yavdi?

Maybe during the Mongol era, when both Rus’ and Yavdi were under Mongol suzerainty. Following the death of the previous Knyaz of Yavdi, the Yavdian nobles elect the Knyaz/Tsar of Rus’ as his successor to form a united front against the Mongols. Once the two of them are free again, the alliance is dissolved and the Tsar is succeeded in Yavdi by a Yavdian noble. But during this period of personal union they would have been substantial migration of Slavs, Finn’s-Ugric speakers, and Mongols between Rus’, Yavdi, and the Golden Horde domains.

Anyways, since Baghdad avoided being sacked by the Mongols and Timurids and western Persia remained unconquered by the Mongols, I wonder how devasting the Timurid invasions and Saltuk's sack of Baghdad, or Saltuk's wars in general, would be here? I assume Timur and Saltuk would carry on the OTL Timurid and Safavid practice of deporting skilled captives like artisans and intellectuals to their homelands to enrich their empires. As for other socio-economic factors that would hit the Reich, I'm sure it wouldn't be as damaging to the Reich as it was to the Islamic world, but I could see it playing a role in the lead up to the Anarchy and the Fifty Years War.

Timur definitely would do that, but I don’t think Saltuk would do it out of fear of being labeled just as bad as the Timurids his ancestors fought against. At least when it came to Roman targets, as it was fair play against Timurid ones.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Timur definitely would do that, but I don’t think Saltuk would do it out of fear of being labeled just as bad as the Timurids his ancestors fought against. At least when it came to Roman targets, as it was fair play against Timurid ones.

I envisioned Saltuk trying to emulate Timur and Genghis Khan just like Nader Shah in OTL, but since he's so hostile towards Islam, I guess he wouldn't spare the skilled inhabitants of Baghdad so I guess he'd be even worse.

Back to the topic of the Anarchy/Fifty Years War, I stumbled across something called the Hesychast controversy, which could be a major movement in the Fifty Years War alongside the Third Iconoclasm, Purism, that one Catholic revival in England, and those Orthodox zealots that sacked Berlin and Constantinople.

I was also thinking of doing away with the overt Macbeth homages and merging Martin Luther and Malcolm Bethune into one character for simplicity. Maybe he would take the sack of Baghdad as a sign of the church being on the wrong path and amass support for his movement through military success against Saltuk, after which the Kaiser is forced to name him co-emperor, then he usurps power and kick starts the Anarchy and Fifty Years War.

 

[zenphoenix]

I envisioned Saltuk trying to emulate Timur and Genghis Khan just like Nader Shah in OTL, but since he's so hostile towards Islam, I guess he wouldn't spare the skilled inhabitants of Baghdad so I guess he'd be even worse.

Yeah, he’d sack the city like most armies did at the time.

Back to the topic of the Anarchy/Fifty Years War, I stumbled across something called the Hesychast controversy, which could be a major movement in the Fifty Years War alongside the Third Iconoclasm, Purism, that one Catholic revival in England, and those Orthodox zealots that sacked Berlin and Constantinople.

Thanks for bringing that up. Agreed, that could be another major movement in the Third Iconoclasm.

I was also thinking of doing away with the overt Macbeth homages and merging Martin Luther and Malcolm Bethune into one character for simplicity. Maybe he would take the sack of Baghdad as a sign of the church being on the wrong path and amass support for his movement through military success against Saltuk, after which the Kaiser is forced to name him co-emperor, then he usurps power and kick starts the Anarchy and Fifty Years War.

I think I’ll convert the Macbeth stuff to an in-universe play and adjust the “real” plot and Raphael’s involvement to be more serious.

 

[zenphoenix]

Did some more research, this time focusing on what logistics are necessary to ensure that the Fusang refugees don’t regress to a hunter-gatherer existence, as well as what natives they would be forced to work with.

All of the ingredients to make paper and gunpowder are still readily available, and the refugees could have brought silkworms. However, iron is in short supply at first, so the early Fusang armies primarily use either the iron weapons they brought with them (the monk explains that his homeland lacks iron and asks the refugees to stockpile large amounts of it). A few years in, large magnetite deposits are discovered on Vancouver Island (nothing on Wikipedia, but I found a survey from 1908 that attests to their existence and relatively easy access), and Fusang can start manufacturing iron weapons and tools again. Still, the Fusang armies stick to wood-based fire lances and fire arrows instead of developing cannons to prioritize smelting the iron into swords and construction materials.

The ecosystem around OTL Vancouver was bountiful and carefully cultivated to sustain large native settlements, which became regional centers of trade. The arriving refugees would be taught how to make use of these resources, but their large numbers would be beyond what any of the natives initially planned for. Still, it would give them time to start planting crops like millet and set up pastures for livestock. In the meantime, population pressures encourage groups like Dashi’s troops to leave the main settlement. It’s only when the Willamette Valley is discovered and settled that Fusang’s population really takes off. Agricultural practices and domesticated livestock spread quickly through North Eimerica ahead of Fusang’s political, military, and economic influence. In the Great Plains, natives practicing Fusang agriculture meet up with those planting maize, squash, and beans. Those crops spread back to Fusang, while the livestock are introduced to the east, creating an agricultural revolution that encourages further social development and political centralization. It also leads to the emergence of horseback native empires akin to the Comanche and Apache, though with Khitan influences.

The Fusang refugees initially land at Vancouver Island, which was where the monk’s tribe is located (they’re part of the Kwakwaka’wakw), but due to approaching storms and the land being unable to sustain them all, they are forced to relocate inland to the Vancouver region. There they are forced to work with the Coastal Salish tribes already there. Their early enemies are seagoing raiders from other tribes like the Haida. As gunpowder is still relatively easy to produce and fire lances and fire arrows require very little metal, the Fusang navy utilizes those weapons and the Korean ships they had taken with them from Goryeo. The raids are pushed away from the coast, although naval battles continue across Puget Sound for decades until the Haida are converted to Buddhism. Unlike many of the mainland natives who were Sinicized, the Haida retained their distinct culture and even contributed it to Fusang Chinese culture. This is totally not so I can make Haida manga a thing much earlier (yes, that actually exists in real life).

Edit: tin is rare, so no bronze. The only major tin mine I found is in British Columbia, but it’s too far for the early Fusang state.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Looking at Islam under the Ming dynasty, I wonder what the status of Muslims would be through China's history in TTL? I could see Muslims having their own unterstrasse into China to escape Roman persecution into China via the Slik road, while in the Tarmin basin, I could see the Chinese government preferring Muslims and Buddhists over the cult of Zorya and pitting the three relgious groups against each other. Don't know how the military junta would treat Muslims, and obviously Han would discriminate against Muslim regardless of historical precedent, if the Battle of Ryukyu is any indication. If anything, Han would probably use the economic and government positions Muslims had in the Song and Yuan dynasties to cast antisemitic style stereotypes on them. Doesn't help Han seems to have the similar attitudes to Genghis Khan when he called Orhan and his people slaves.

Anyways, I wonder how the culture of Fusang would develop and mix with the existing indigenous societies, especially in Fusang's early history when the Song are establishing themselves in the Pacfic northwest, the Jin establish Jinshan, and the Liao interact with the Dine and Pueblo, on top of the diverse groups of people that went to the Eimercas?

Also hare are some PM discussions about Fusang's flag for everyone's convivence. Isn't the tree of life another promient symbol of the mythological Fusang though? Where would that work as a symbol? Maybe for native rights groups, where the tree is added within the white star along with another color for indigenous groups.

Btw, is there a way for Fusang’s current flag to still work here, or do we have to adjust it or move on to the in game republican flag? Still not fully sure about the Song replacing the Jin as the ruling dynasty, but maybe something like the ROC’s flag, where each of Fusang’s major ethic groups (Chinese, Jurchens, Khitans, Japanese, Koreans, and native Eimericans) and dynasties (the Song, Jin, Liao, and Fujiwara) are represented.

The Jin flag of Fusang could be the personal standard of the Jin prince of Jinshan. I like your idea of a national flag being like the Five Races Under One Union flag. It would have to be dynasty neutral to placate the other major dynasties within Fusang, so like the OTL flag it would be based on the major nationalities. There’d be an element of racism in that indigenous Eimericans aren’t given their own color, as they’re either assumed to have been assimilated into one of the Asian groups or considered outside of civilization. From top to bottom, the colors are red (Han Chinese), yellow (Jurchen), white (Korean), black (Liao), and blue (Japanese). To further differentiate it from the OTL flag (since the colors have only been rearranged), it could also have the ROC White Sun, representing the mythological accounts of Fusang being where the sun rose. Could draw parallels with the Khitanverse there, and the Fuxingyundong revolutionaries would have introduced the White Sun to mainland Chinese after reunification.

 

[zenphoenix]

Edit: tin is rare, so no bronze. The only major tin mine I found is in British Columbia, but it’s too far for the early Fusang state.

Did a bit more research after sleeping on it, and there are accessible tin mines in Alaska and pre-Columbian trade routes between the tribes there and those on Vancouver Island, with more tin deposits in remote places. So it's possible that the Fusang settlers quickly learn about it and eagerly buy up all of the tin they can to manufacture bronze weapons. In later eras, they cut out the middleman and just conquer the mines for themselves. From there Fusang island gradually sets up trade outposts and settlements along the coast until it reaches Siberia comes into conflict with the Asian Jurchens and Ainu who migrated there to flee the Ming and Korean expansions. Maybe it utilized its native populations to find and establish good trade outposts and permanent settlements, resulting in a large number of maritime-focused native peoples (Haida, Tlingit, etc.) serving in the merchant marine or navy. This could result in the Fusang territories in Siberia being trade outposts and later military bases for further expansion against the hostile Asian Jurchens.

Speaking of Korean expansion, I was thinking that since I already had Goryeo establish some Siberian settlements, why not go a little further and have them set up trade outposts and minor colonies in the Pacific Northwest alongside the Fusang ones? It could help explain the large number of Koreans, Japanese, and Mongols/Jurchens in the early modern colonization waves since Goryeo controls most of the routes to Fusang (with the most common port of departure being Tagajo in Goryeo-controlled northern Japan). I like the idea of Goryeo being a secondary colonial power trying to carve out its own empire in the shadow of the Ming and Tran dominating Asia and the western Pacific. And in Goryeo's and Fusang's own shadow could be the few remaining distinct indigenous peoples trying to stay independent or at least distinct under the military backing of either Goryeo or Fusang. So the Goryeo colonies in the Pacific Northwest are a mix of Korean settlements and indigenous ones that accepted Goryeo's suzerainty in exchange for military protection against Fusang and its native allies.

Next, we were discussing Fusang toponyms in the PM thread, so I'll continue that discussion here.

To come up with the toponyms, I want to plan out the route Yelü Dashi took. Although he felt betrayed by the Liao court pledging loyalty to the Song emperor once his emperor passed, he still sent back the occasional scout to report on any useful geographic features, potential allies, and dangerous enemies while laying down stone markers to show the route he took until he reached the mountains and disappeared through a mountain pass.

First, Dashi went south from Hongzhou, down the coast of Puget Sound. This inland region and later the province based on it is given the name Leqing (朸青, modern Mandarin: Lèqīng, Middle Chinese approximation: Loktsheng). Literal translation doesn't quite make sense ("Harsh Green"), but it's more of a transliteration of the indigenous Lushotseed name Ləš (pronounced "luhsh" in my really bad approximation) for the Puget Sound region. Le is assigned as the Chinese name of the Lushotseed-speaking peoples here, in line with the tradition of assigning demeaning or offensive words as the names of barbarian peoples. The body of water is called Guai Bay (夬灣, modern Mandarin: Guàiwān, Middle Chinese approximation: kwaejHwaen however that's pronounced). It literally means "Fork Bay," but the Middle Chinese approximates the Lushotseed name Whulj.

Next, he reaches the Willamette Valley and reports on its agricultural potential. The valley is called Conglong Valley (蔥蘢谷, Mandarin: Cōnglónggǔ), or "Lush Valley." Instead of continuing south through the valley, he turns west and heads up the Columbia River, or the Qinglong River (青龍河, Qīnglónghé, "Azure Dragon River") upon hearing rumors of a prosperous town upriver. Arriving at the indigenous trade site and fishing grounds of Wyam, which in later years is dubbed Huayang (華陽, modern Mandarin: Huáyáng, Middle Chinese: Hwaeyang; a Sinicization of Wyam) by Fusang authorities, he is disappointed by the lack of civilization and moves on.

Continuing east, Dashi eventually hits the mountains. The settlers on the coast called the Cascades the Bai (白) Mountains for the snowy peaks they saw, but upon crossing the Bai Mountains, he runs into an even larger mountain range. His men draw a comparison between the impassable range and the Great Wall, and he coins the name Wanli Mountains (萬里山, Wànlǐshān, "Ten Thousand Mile Mountain(s)"), after Sima Qian's description of the Great Wall. Ultimately, he learns of the existence of a mountain pass from the natives in the area, but he knows that if he crosses through the dangerous mountains, it will be too impractical to return. Those of his men who want to turn back are allowed to do so, bringing back to Hongzhou the last records of Dashi's journey. The last of his stone markers are found at the entrance to the pass, giving it the name Dashi (大石) Pass. In OTL it is the Union Pass.

After losing a lot of men in the harsh mountain climate, he eventually emerges on a wild expanse of prairie that reminds him of the northern Chinese steppes. It doesn't take long before he runs into indigenous populations displaced by the Mexica, as well as pursuing Mexica troops scouting the area ahead of a full invasion. Finally encountering an organized and challenging military force, he enlists the help of local Diné and Ngaikien (placeholder here because I don't want to keep using Puebloan) to reinforce his army and fight the Mexica. After defeating the first invasion, he founds a new kingdom on the plains, with himself proclaimed the restoration of the Liao (遼) Dynasty. Over time, all of the natives and settlers under his rule gradually assimilated into a new ethnic group, which simply called itself Khitan but was labeled Liao by Fusang. When the Fusang court established contact with Khitai and its government paid tribute to the emperor, they granted it the name Liaoning 遼寧 (Liáoníng), or "Peaceful Liao." Yes, I stole the name of the Chinese province since that one was only given in 1929. Since these Liao people were the first people of the plains to be encountered by Fusang, they lent their name to the entire plains, which became the Liao Plains (遼原, Liáoyuán). Liaoning also referred to itself as Khitai.

Around the late 13th century (after the "Fall of the Great Plains" CK2 event, but I’m open to moving the year around), the descendants of Yelü Dashi continue fighting against the Mexica. Horses quickly spread across the plains, and the scattered Diné tribes quickly learn to ride them, with many adopting the title of khan from the Liao. A young Liao princess, Xiao Ping (蕭平), is married off to one Diné khan but instead demonstrates an overwhelming ambition and capable military leadership (like the Liao Dynasty founder Abaoji’s empress Shulü Ping, but far more capable). Believing it is her destiny to lead her tribe to the sea, and taking advantage of even more egalitarian Diné society, she unites a large number of Diné tribes on the Liao Plains into a powerful horde that then goes on a rampage south, devastating the Mexica altepetls established across the plains. While the Mexica Empire retains a significant presence on the Liao Plains (I want to keep using most of the 1444 map), its military presence is vastly crippled, forcing a withdrawal of troops from the European conquests. Her Diné husband is killed in battle at some point, but the horde remains loyal to her. The Diné horde eventually breaks through into southern California, where they meet the newly landed Jin prince as his troops are put under siege by a Mexica army. Recognizing the usefulness of his iron weapons and armor, she forces the prince to marry her and integrates his troops into her horde, then drives the Mexica out of the region for good. While the two sides initially get along due to the Mexica being a common enemy, control of the nascent Jin/Liao state wavers between two clans descended from Xiao Ping’s son with the Diné khan and her son with the Jin prince, with the former supported by a powerful Khitan-Diné warrior class and the latter by Fusang through its merchants and monks. The Khitan-Diné horde, referred to by Fusang historians as the Southern Liao and the Jin as the Dashi or Xiao khanate (which was also done in OTL), control the interior of the region and parts of the southern Chaoyang Valley (Central Valley—decided on in a previous post), while the Jin (called the Southern Jin by Fusang) control the coastal towns and trade with Fusang (via the other Jin court in Jinshan) and Tawantinsuyu. Due to their connection with Fusang, their name for the region, Tufangjia (土方家, tǔfāngjiā, from the Tongva word Tovaangar, meaning “the world”—it’s a fortunate coincidence that the first two Chinese characters are current or archaic words for the ground/earth and the last is used for “house” or “family,” so much of the Tongva meaning is still preserved), becomes the standard.

The constant wars between the two dynasties eventually end in the Liao conquering the Jin coastal towns and claiming the imperial title, only to be overrun by the Mexica, forcing a mass migration of Khitan-Diné and Jurchens north towards Jinshan Bay. Eventually the Song court marches south and brings Tufangjia under direct control, granting the Jin and Liao survivors small domains in the Jinshan Bay region. From that point on, and ignoring the small Goryeo outposts established along the North Pacific coast, Fusang is fully united under the Song court, which moves its capital to Jinshan, which had eclipsed Hongzhou in size and prosperity, to better administrate its southern territories and control the trade routes to Asia. The city names would reflect this change. Hongzhou was Hongjing (紅京, Hóngjīng, “Red Capital” for the red maple leaves seen falling in the area in autumn) until the capital was moved to Jinshan, and Jinshan (金山, Jīnshān, “Golden Mountain”) became Jingshan (京山, Jīngshān, “Capital Mountain” but the literal meaning doesn’t mean as much as the pronunciation), consciously chosen to sound close to the original name but without using 金, which would give the Jin clans legitimacy. After reunification, the name is changed back since it is no longer a capital and stuck around after independence.

To wrap things up, Prester John legends now come from North Eimerica. The historical Dashi was friendly towards the Church of the East. The legend goes that in 1165, the emperor Manuel I Komnenos received a letter from a Christian king John in Central Asia, leading to speculation about his whereabouts. It was fueled by, among other things, the Europeans’ limited knowledge of India’s St. Thomas Christians, distorted reports of the Church of the East’s spread in Asia, rumors of Indian clergy visiting Constantinople and Rome…and a misinterpretation of the Seljuks being defeated at Samarkand by Qara Khitai under Yelü Dashi, a patron of the Church of the East.

In my scenario, Qara Khitai never existed because Dashi went east. It actually can’t exist no matter what because it would have appeared on the CK2 map. The Reich’s Prester John legends start after Saint Wilhelmina’s visit to India and attempts to bring the St. Thomas Christians into communion with the Roman Orthodox Church (with similar outcomes as the OTL attempts by the Catholic Church). Rumors of Church of the East converts in Mongolia lead medieval Roman historians to think Prester John is there, fighting against the Ghaznavid sultanate from the north. But the legends really take off after the Mexica invasion. Among the slaves brought by the Mexica to Europe are a few people from Fusang—more specifically, the border regions on the edge of Fusang’s cultural sphere like Liaoning/Khitai, Tufangjia, and the Liao Plains. Most of these captives are Liao and related peoples like the Khitan-Diné, all of which have large Christian minorities. Cue a lot of confusion when Roman troops in England find that many escaped Mexica slaves are reciting the Lord’s Prayer and making the sign of the cross in the Orthodox way (which is identical to the Church of the East way). As more news filters in from North Eimerica, the Reich becomes aware of its Christian communities being enslaved by a barbarian empire, a state called Cathay, and a state either called Kim (Middle Chinese for Jin) or “Gold” depending on the translator and source (which has the added side effect of starting “El Dorado” legends a couple centuries early), and a powerful king fighting the barbarian empire. They have no idea how to distinguish between them, and aside from the location it lines up with legends they’re familiar with, so they assume that Prester John is the very wealthy king of the Christian kingdom of Cathay. In addition to reintroducing the Church of the East to Europe (causing some minor theological debates that may or may not play into the Fifty Years’ War—maybe many of their descendants eventually immigrate to Neurhomania), the freed Liao slaves end up introducing Buddhism to England, Ireland, and Scotland. I guess some Jews also were among the freed slaves, while most of the Muslims and Manichaeans stuck to the North Pacific coast and Fusang heartland.

Speaking of trans-Atlantic interactions, I think I’d like the Scandinavian colonies in Vinland to survive a bit longer. While they’d bring some livestock like pigs and knowledge of metallurgy, they’d also bring some diseases around the same time if not earlier than Fusang, causing regular epidemics of varying intensities (about 5-10% fatality rate) with the end result of encouraging political centralization and the development of sedentary societies (while towns were hotbeds for diseases, they also had more resources and social organization to deal with them than hunter-gatherer societies). The social upheavals caused by these epidemics also encourages the spread of new religious movements, conversions to Buddhism/Christianity (either Fusang’s Church of the East or the Catholicism of the remaining Norse Christians)/Manichaeism, and the resurgence of the Worm Cult. It also weakens many indigenous societies east of the Wanli Mountains (probably called the Utgard Range by the Norse) and makes it easier for the Mexica Empire to conquer them. The Norse colony in Vinland remains until the early 13th century, when the northern wave of Acatl’s invasion force wipes it out and uses it as a staging ground to invade Greenland. From there, Ocuil Acatl scouts out the geography and military strength of Europe (including his Hebrides landing). After he finishes his assessment, the northern wave hits Iceland and secures its port for the middle wave to hit Ireland and Scotland, with the former used as a staging ground for the southern wave’s invasion of Mauretania. Once ports along the Atlantic coast are secured, reinforcements arrive from the Mexica ports in OTL Georgia and South Carolina. After the Mexica are kicked out of Europe, the Reich and Scandinavia pursue them to first Greenland and then Vinland. While the Reich turns back after the Mexica military presence in Vinland is destroyed, Scandinavia stays behind and resumes colonization despite the colder climate. The Vinland colony is reestablished sometime in the 15th century, but like the medieval one it’s primarily a trading site, albeit now with a heavy Scandinavia naval presence. Full civilian colonization only begins in the next century.

Oh god, this one took me over 12 hours and I still haven’t gotten to the other questions.

Looking at Islam under the Ming dynasty, I wonder what the status of Muslims would be through China's history in TTL? I could see Muslims having their own unterstrasse into China to escape Roman persecution into China via the Slik road, while in the Tarmin basin, I could see the Chinese government preferring Muslims and Buddhists over the cult of Zorya and pitting the three relgious groups against each other. Don't know how the military junta would treat Muslims, and obviously Han would discriminate against Muslim regardless of historical precedent, if the Battle of Ryukyu is any indication. If anything, Han would probably use the economic and government positions Muslims had in the Song and Yuan dynasties to cast antisemitic style stereotypes on them. Doesn't help Han seems to have the similar attitudes to Genghis Khan when he called Orhan and his people slaves.

Muslims don’t really need an Unterstrasse. They just migrated into China via the Silk Road, and the Song didn’t mind them too much as long as they paid taxes. The Yuan particularly patronized them in OTL, and I don’t see that changing even with the collapse of Islam being finished with Genghis Khan eradicating the Ghaznavid Sultanate. The Ming would continue such policies, though not to the same extent of the Yuan, but the collapse of global Islam incentivizes many Asian Muslims to convert to Christianity instead (a reverse of OTL trends), either to the Church of the East being brought back from Fusang or the Roman Orthodox Church coming from the Reich in Malaya. The cult of Zorya is primarily a Tibetan thing, so that’s more for India to handle (again, they probably wouldn’t care that much). Buddhists of course get special treatment as the most “mainstream” of those three, but the extent of patronage depends on the emperor and can even turn to persecution (as had happened before in OTL Chinese history) if they decide to patronize Taoists or Confucians. The military junta would be neutral on Muslims as long as they remained loyal and culturally Chinese, like any other group. Agree that Han would definitely discriminate since he’s incorporated many influences from the Roman and Indian far right, including their Islamophobia. I also imagine that Fusang Muslim merchants dominating the trans-Pacific trade routes also creates some resentment among non-Muslims competing in the same markets.

Anyways, I wonder how the culture of Fusang would develop and mix with the existing indigenous societies, especially in Fusang's early history when the Song are establishing themselves in the Pacfic northwest, the Jin establish Jinshan, and the Liao interact with the Dine and Pueblo, on top of the diverse groups of people that went to the Eimercas?

Do you want me to spend another 12 hours on this reply?

One thing I was thinking about when writing the giant lore bit above was that since there are no monkeys in the Pacific Northwest unless I have the Chinese settlers starting their own Bigfoot legends, the story of Sun Wukong becomes syncretized with local mythology, and he is depicted as a coyote or raven, depending on the tribe.

Other than that, some quick bullet points because it’s getting late.

A Journey to the West equivalent is written focusing on the first Buddhist monk from Fusang who guided the settlers out of slavery and to their new home and then began teaching the ways of the Buddha to his people. Sun Wukong (as a coyote or raven) heavily features in versions of the story after establishing contact with the Ming.

I intend to do something with the Kuksu religion of indigenous Californians, which would probably syncretize with Chinese secret societies and folk religion. The Jinshan court would have leaned heavily into Sinicized Kuksu to expand their political influence.

The Hopi/Navajo/indigenous Southwest cosmology of Five Worlds syncretizes with Pure Land Buddhism and the concept of reincarnation. The Khitan-Diné develop a mix of Navajo and Khitan/Chinese beliefs and develop a Mongol-style veneration for the horse, while the Zhumasi Jin syncretize incorporate Tongva beliefs.

The Song refugees incorporate much Pacific Northwest culture, like totem poles and potlatches. In return, the indigenous peoples adopt Buddhism, Confucian social organization (although more egalitarian than in Asia), and many Chinese gods, which are associated with their own. Indigenous gods and spiritual entities like the Thunderbird are incorporated into Fusang’s mythology. The Thunderbird in particular takes on aspects of Chinese dragons, to the point where they are venerated to the same degree by Chinese in Fusang and their depictions become more draconic.

Yu the Great’s role as a tamer of flooding rivers was used as a legitimizing political narrative by Fusang and other Sinicized states, who tied flood control and effective irrigation to holding the Mandate of Heaven. The flooding caused by the landslide that created the Bridge of the Gods in the 1450s led to a major rebellion in nearby Huayang and the Conglong Valley, and a massive nationwide flood in the 1860s, in which the entire Chaoyang Valley briefly became an inland sea among other things, economically crippled Fusang, completely discredited its dynasty, and led to a surge in Fuxingyundong membership that brought about Chinese reunification by the end of the decade.

The Haida become devout Buddhists and renounce their slaving and raiding ways, with a large Muslim minority due to heavily participating in the trans Pacific trade routes. Due to the trade routes taking them through Polynesian islands, they could have syncretized many elements of Polynesian mythology like Maui taking on Coyote/Raven elements. A few Haida traders who made contact with the Maori came back believing they are a Maori tribe that got very lost during the settlement of Aotearoa/Mittagsland.

The remote islands and wilderness of Alaska attracts many Buddhist monks who use the lack of civilization and harsh climate to live an ascetic existence. The region is also the site of fierce religious competition between Fusang and Korean/Japanese sects of Buddhism.

Wyam, as Huayang, becomes another major city in the Fusang core and a vehicle for the spread of Old World religions and philosophies deeper into the continent. The Pagoda Path (rename pending) of Buddhist temples and monasteries goes south from Hongzhou to Huayang, and from there one route goes east through Dashi Pass to Liaoning, while the other continues through the Conglong and Chaoyang Valleys to Jinshan and then Zhumasi. The route continues much further than that (down to the edge of Baja California and into Sonora), but as the region south of Zhumasi is a constant battlefield, Fusang and the other Sinicized states don’t invest too much on that leg.

In China, many believe that Xi Wangmu, the Queen Mother of the West, holds court on Kunlun Mountain in the west. In Fusang, the more obscure Dong Wanggong, the Old King of the East, is elevated in the pantheon and considered to live on one of the highest peaks of the Wanli Mountains (the exact peak is subject to debate as each state claims it is a mountain within their border for religious clout).

In China, the water god Gonggong was said to have broken the pillars of heaven, tilting the earth’s axis so that water drained to the southeast and the western regions were more elevated than the eastern ones. The primordial goddess Nüwa fixed the pillars but was unable to correct the tilt, explaining China’s geography. In Fusang, the legend is reinterpreted in the opposite direction, with the axis tilting so the east is more elevated than the west, water drains to the west, and the primordial god Fuxi fixing the pillars.

The old legends of Fusang being the place where the sun rises mixes with the legend of Houyi, who shot down nine out of ten suns (represented as three-legged crows) when they all rose from Fusang at the same time. The crows are interpreted as a trick played by Raven. The Chinese assume that the crows roosted in in the Wanli Range. Many natives claimed Houyi as one of their folk heroes. The Klamath people’s mythology for the eruption of Mount Mazama is reinterpreted with this new cultural context. Originally, the myth was a battle between the gods Llao, who emerged from Mount Mazama and rained fire down upon the people, and Skell, who tried to protect the people from Mount Shasta and ultimately triumphed over Llao with the sacrifice of two holy men and the destruction of Mount Mazama. The Sinicized myth has the nine suns emerging from Mount Mazama at once, to be opposed by Houyi, who journeys to Mount Mazama from Mount Shasta, shoots down the suns, and then sacrifices himself by collapsing Mount Mazama with himself still on it. Another part of the myth is that the nine suns hovered directly over Tufangjia and the Desert Southwest region, which is why those areas are hotter than the northern regions or scorching desert.

I’ve now passed 15 hours writing this, so I am ending it there and going to sleep. And to think I started this post in the morning saying I had slept on yesterday’s discussion…

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Did a bit more research after sleeping on it, and there are accessible tin mines in Alaska and pre-Columbian trade routes between the tribes there and those on Vancouver Island, with more tin deposits in remote places. So it's possible that the Fusang settlers quickly learn about it and eagerly buy up all of the tin they can to manufacture bronze weapons. In later eras, they cut out the middleman and just conquer the mines for themselves. From there Fusang island gradually sets up trade outposts and settlements along the coast until it reaches Siberia comes into conflict with the Asian Jurchens and Ainu who migrated there to flee the Ming and Korean expansions. Maybe it utilized its native populations to find and establish good trade outposts and permanent settlements, resulting in a large number of maritime-focused native peoples (Haida, Tlingit, etc.) serving in the merchant marine or navy. This could result in the Fusang territories in Siberia being trade outposts and later military bases for further expansion against the hostile Asian Jurchens.

Speaking of Korean expansion, I was thinking that since I already had Goryeo establish some Siberian settlements, why not go a little further and have them set up trade outposts and minor colonies in the Pacific Northwest alongside the Fusang ones? It could help explain the large number of Koreans, Japanese, and Mongols/Jurchens in the early modern colonization waves since Goryeo controls most of the routes to Fusang (with the most common port of departure being Tagajo in Goryeo-controlled northern Japan). I like the idea of Goryeo being a secondary colonial power trying to carve out its own empire in the shadow of the Ming and Tran dominating Asia and the western Pacific. And in Goryeo's and Fusang's own shadow could be the few remaining distinct indigenous peoples trying to stay independent or at least distinct under the military backing of either Goryeo or Fusang. So the Goryeo colonies in the Pacific Northwest are a mix of Korean settlements and indigenous ones that accepted Goryeo's suzerainty in exchange for military protection against Fusang and its native allies.

Next, we were discussing Fusang toponyms in the PM thread, so I'll continue that discussion here.

To come up with the toponyms, I want to plan out the route Yelü Dashi took. Although he felt betrayed by the Liao court pledging loyalty to the Song emperor once his emperor passed, he still sent back the occasional scout to report on any useful geographic features, potential allies, and dangerous enemies while laying down stone markers to show the route he took until he reached the mountains and disappeared through a mountain pass.

First, Dashi went south from Hongzhou, down the coast of Puget Sound. This inland region and later the province based on it is given the name Leqing (朸青, modern Mandarin: Lèqīng, Middle Chinese approximation: Loktsheng). Literal translation doesn't quite make sense ("Harsh Green"), but it's more of a transliteration of the indigenous Lushotseed name Ləš (pronounced "luhsh" in my really bad approximation) for the Puget Sound region. Le is assigned as the Chinese name of the Lushotseed-speaking peoples here, in line with the tradition of assigning demeaning or offensive words as the names of barbarian peoples. The body of water is called Guai Bay (夬灣, modern Mandarin: Guàiwān, Middle Chinese approximation: kwaejHwaen however that's pronounced). It literally means "Fork Bay," but the Middle Chinese approximates the Lushotseed name Whulj.

Next, he reaches the Willamette Valley and reports on its agricultural potential. The valley is called Conglong Valley (蔥蘢谷, Mandarin: Cōnglónggǔ), or "Lush Valley." Instead of continuing south through the valley, he turns west and heads up the Columbia River, or the Qinglong River (青龍河, Qīnglónghé, "Azure Dragon River") upon hearing rumors of a prosperous town upriver. Arriving at the indigenous trade site and fishing grounds of Wyam, which in later years is dubbed Huayang (華陽, modern Mandarin: Huáyáng, Middle Chinese: Hwaeyang; a Sinicization of Wyam) by Fusang authorities, he is disappointed by the lack of civilization and moves on.

Continuing east, Dashi eventually hits the mountains. The settlers on the coast called the Cascades the Bai (白) Mountains for the snowy peaks they saw, but upon crossing the Bai Mountains, he runs into an even larger mountain range. His men draw a comparison between the impassable range and the Great Wall, and he coins the name Wanli Mountains (萬里山, Wànlǐshān, "Ten Thousand Mile Mountain(s)"), after Sima Qian's description of the Great Wall. Ultimately, he learns of the existence of a mountain pass from the natives in the area, but he knows that if he crosses through the dangerous mountains, it will be too impractical to return. Those of his men who want to turn back are allowed to do so, bringing back to Hongzhou the last records of Dashi's journey. The last of his stone markers are found at the entrance to the pass, giving it the name Dashi (大石) Pass. In OTL it is the Union Pass.

After losing a lot of men in the harsh mountain climate, he eventually emerges on a wild expanse of prairie that reminds him of the northern Chinese steppes. It doesn't take long before he runs into indigenous populations displaced by the Mexica, as well as pursuing Mexica troops scouting the area ahead of a full invasion. Finally encountering an organized and challenging military force, he enlists the help of local Diné and Ngaikien (placeholder here because I don't want to keep using Puebloan) to reinforce his army and fight the Mexica. After defeating the first invasion, he founds a new kingdom on the plains, with himself proclaimed the restoration of the Liao (遼) Dynasty. Over time, all of the natives and settlers under his rule gradually assimilated into a new ethnic group, which simply called itself Khitan but was labeled Liao by Fusang. When the Fusang court established contact with Khitai and its government paid tribute to the emperor, they granted it the name Liaoning 遼寧 (Liáoníng), or "Peaceful Liao." Yes, I stole the name of the Chinese province since that one was only given in 1929. Since these Liao people were the first people of the plains to be encountered by Fusang, they lent their name to the entire plains, which became the Liao Plains (遼原, Liáoyuán). Liaoning also referred to itself as Khitai.

Around the late 13th century (after the "Fall of the Great Plains" CK2 event, but I’m open to moving the year around), the descendants of Yelü Dashi continue fighting against the Mexica. Horses quickly spread across the plains, and the scattered Diné tribes quickly learn to ride them, with many adopting the title of khan from the Liao. A young Liao princess, Xiao Ping (蕭平), is married off to one Diné khan but instead demonstrates an overwhelming ambition and capable military leadership (like the Liao Dynasty founder Abaoji’s empress Shulü Ping, but far more capable). Believing it is her destiny to lead her tribe to the sea, and taking advantage of even more egalitarian Diné society, she unites a large number of Diné tribes on the Liao Plains into a powerful horde that then goes on a rampage south, devastating the Mexica altepetls established across the plains. While the Mexica Empire retains a significant presence on the Liao Plains (I want to keep using most of the 1444 map), its military presence is vastly crippled, forcing a withdrawal of troops from the European conquests. Her Diné husband is killed in battle at some point, but the horde remains loyal to her. The Diné horde eventually breaks through into southern California, where they meet the newly landed Jin prince as his troops are put under siege by a Mexica army. Recognizing the usefulness of his iron weapons and armor, she forces the prince to marry her and integrates his troops into her horde, then drives the Mexica out of the region for good. While the two sides initially get along due to the Mexica being a common enemy, control of the nascent Jin/Liao state wavers between two clans descended from Xiao Ping’s son with the Diné khan and her son with the Jin prince, with the former supported by a powerful Khitan-Diné warrior class and the latter by Fusang through its merchants and monks. The Khitan-Diné horde, referred to by Fusang historians as the Southern Liao and the Jin as the Dashi or Xiao khanate (which was also done in OTL), control the interior of the region and parts of the southern Chaoyang Valley (Central Valley—decided on in a previous post), while the Jin (called the Southern Jin by Fusang) control the coastal towns and trade with Fusang (via the other Jin court in Jinshan) and Tawantinsuyu. Due to their connection with Fusang, their name for the region, Tufangjia (土方家, tǔfāngjiā, from the Tongva word Tovaangar, meaning “the world”—it’s a fortunate coincidence that the first two Chinese characters are current or archaic words for the ground/earth and the last is used for “house” or “family,” so much of the Tongva meaning is still preserved), becomes the standard.

The constant wars between the two dynasties eventually end in the Liao conquering the Jin coastal towns and claiming the imperial title, only to be overrun by the Mexica, forcing a mass migration of Khitan-Diné and Jurchens north towards Jinshan Bay. Eventually the Song court marches south and brings Tufangjia under direct control, granting the Jin and Liao survivors small domains in the Jinshan Bay region. From that point on, and ignoring the small Goryeo outposts established along the North Pacific coast, Fusang is fully united under the Song court, which moves its capital to Jinshan, which had eclipsed Hongzhou in size and prosperity, to better administrate its southern territories and control the trade routes to Asia. The city names would reflect this change. Hongzhou was Hongjing (紅京, Hóngjīng, “Red Capital” for the red maple leaves seen falling in the area in autumn) until the capital was moved to Jinshan, and Jinshan (金山, Jīnshān, “Golden Mountain”) became Jingshan (京山, Jīngshān, “Capital Mountain” but the literal meaning doesn’t mean as much as the pronunciation), consciously chosen to sound close to the original name but without using 金, which would give the Jin clans legitimacy. After reunification, the name is changed back since it is no longer a capital and stuck around after independence.

To wrap things up, Prester John legends now come from North Eimerica. The historical Dashi was friendly towards the Church of the East. The legend goes that in 1165, the emperor Manuel I Komnenos received a letter from a Christian king John in Central Asia, leading to speculation about his whereabouts. It was fueled by, among other things, the Europeans’ limited knowledge of India’s St. Thomas Christians, distorted reports of the Church of the East’s spread in Asia, rumors of Indian clergy visiting Constantinople and Rome…and a misinterpretation of the Seljuks being defeated at Samarkand by Qara Khitai under Yelü Dashi, a patron of the Church of the East.

In my scenario, Qara Khitai never existed because Dashi went east. It actually can’t exist no matter what because it would have appeared on the CK2 map. The Reich’s Prester John legends start after Saint Wilhelmina’s visit to India and attempts to bring the St. Thomas Christians into communion with the Roman Orthodox Church (with similar outcomes as the OTL attempts by the Catholic Church). Rumors of Church of the East converts in Mongolia lead medieval Roman historians to think Prester John is there, fighting against the Ghaznavid sultanate from the north. But the legends really take off after the Mexica invasion. Among the slaves brought by the Mexica to Europe are a few people from Fusang—more specifically, the border regions on the edge of Fusang’s cultural sphere like Liaoning/Khitai, Tufangjia, and the Liao Plains. Most of these captives are Liao and related peoples like the Khitan-Diné, all of which have large Christian minorities. Cue a lot of confusion when Roman troops in England find that many escaped Mexica slaves are reciting the Lord’s Prayer and making the sign of the cross in the Orthodox way (which is identical to the Church of the East way). As more news filters in from North Eimerica, the Reich becomes aware of its Christian communities being enslaved by a barbarian empire, a state called Cathay, and a state either called Kim (Middle Chinese for Jin) or “Gold” depending on the translator and source (which has the added side effect of starting “El Dorado” legends a couple centuries early), and a powerful king fighting the barbarian empire. They have no idea how to distinguish between them, and aside from the location it lines up with legends they’re familiar with, so they assume that Prester John is the very wealthy king of the Christian kingdom of Cathay. In addition to reintroducing the Church of the East to Europe (causing some minor theological debates that may or may not play into the Fifty Years’ War—maybe many of their descendants eventually immigrate to Neurhomania), the freed Liao slaves end up introducing Buddhism to England, Ireland, and Scotland. I guess some Jews also were among the freed slaves, while most of the Muslims and Manichaeans stuck to the North Pacific coast and Fusang heartland.

Speaking of trans-Atlantic interactions, I think I’d like the Scandinavian colonies in Vinland to survive a bit longer. While they’d bring some livestock like pigs and knowledge of metallurgy, they’d also bring some diseases around the same time if not earlier than Fusang, causing regular epidemics of varying intensities (about 5-10% fatality rate) with the end result of encouraging political centralization and the development of sedentary societies (while towns were hotbeds for diseases, they also had more resources and social organization to deal with them than hunter-gatherer societies). The social upheavals caused by these epidemics also encourages the spread of new religious movements, conversions to Buddhism/Christianity (either Fusang’s Church of the East or the Catholicism of the remaining Norse Christians)/Manichaeism, and the resurgence of the Worm Cult. It also weakens many indigenous societies east of the Wanli Mountains (probably called the Utgard Range by the Norse) and makes it easier for the Mexica Empire to conquer them. The Norse colony in Vinland remains until the early 13th century, when the northern wave of Acatl’s invasion force wipes it out and uses it as a staging ground to invade Greenland. From there, Ocuil Acatl scouts out the geography and military strength of Europe (including his Hebrides landing). After he finishes his assessment, the northern wave hits Iceland and secures its port for the middle wave to hit Ireland and Scotland, with the former used as a staging ground for the southern wave’s invasion of Mauretania. Once ports along the Atlantic coast are secured, reinforcements arrive from the Mexica ports in OTL Georgia and South Carolina. After the Mexica are kicked out of Europe, the Reich and Scandinavia pursue them to first Greenland and then Vinland. While the Reich turns back after the Mexica military presence in Vinland is destroyed, Scandinavia stays behind and resumes colonization despite the colder climate. The Vinland colony is reestablished sometime in the 15th century, but like the medieval one it’s primarily a trading site, albeit now with a heavy Scandinavia naval presence. Full civilian colonization only begins in the next century.

Oh god, this one took me over 12 hours and I still haven’t gotten to the other questions.

Muslims don’t really need an Unterstrasse. They just migrated into China via the Silk Road, and the Song didn’t mind them too much as long as they paid taxes. The Yuan particularly patronized them in OTL, and I don’t see that changing even with the collapse of Islam being finished with Genghis Khan eradicating the Ghaznavid Sultanate. The Ming would continue such policies, though not to the same extent of the Yuan, but the collapse of global Islam incentivizes many Asian Muslims to convert to Christianity instead (a reverse of OTL trends), either to the Church of the East being brought back from Fusang or the Roman Orthodox Church coming from the Reich in Malaya. The cult of Zorya is primarily a Tibetan thing, so that’s more for India to handle (again, they probably wouldn’t care that much). Buddhists of course get special treatment as the most “mainstream” of those three, but the extent of patronage depends on the emperor and can even turn to persecution (as had happened before in OTL Chinese history) if they decide to patronize Taoists or Confucians. The military junta would be neutral on Muslims as long as they remained loyal and culturally Chinese, like any other group. Agree that Han would definitely discriminate since he’s incorporated many influences from the Roman and Indian far right, including their Islamophobia. I also imagine that Fusang Muslim merchants dominating the trans-Pacific trade routes also creates some resentment among non-Muslims competing in the same markets.

Do you want me to spend another 12 hours on this reply?

One thing I was thinking about when writing the giant lore bit above was that since there are no monkeys in the Pacific Northwest unless I have the Chinese settlers starting their own Bigfoot legends, the story of Sun Wukong becomes syncretized with local mythology, and he is depicted as a coyote or raven, depending on the tribe.

Other than that, some quick bullet points because it’s getting late.

A Journey to the West equivalent is written focusing on the first Buddhist monk from Fusang who guided the settlers out of slavery and to their new home and then began teaching the ways of the Buddha to his people. Sun Wukong (as a coyote or raven) heavily features in versions of the story after establishing contact with the Ming.

I intend to do something with the Kuksu religion of indigenous Californians, which would probably syncretize with Chinese secret societies and folk religion. The Jinshan court would have leaned heavily into Sinicized Kuksu to expand their political influence.

The Hopi/Navajo/indigenous Southwest cosmology of Five Worlds syncretizes with Pure Land Buddhism and the concept of reincarnation. The Khitan-Diné develop a mix of Navajo and Khitan/Chinese beliefs and develop a Mongol-style veneration for the horse, while the Zhumasi Jin syncretize incorporate Tongva beliefs.

The Song refugees incorporate much Pacific Northwest culture, like totem poles and potlatches. In return, the indigenous peoples adopt Buddhism, Confucian social organization (although more egalitarian than in Asia), and many Chinese gods, which are associated with their own. Indigenous gods and spiritual entities like the Thunderbird are incorporated into Fusang’s mythology. The Thunderbird in particular takes on aspects of Chinese dragons, to the point where they are venerated to the same degree by Chinese in Fusang and their depictions become more draconic.

Yu the Great’s role as a tamer of flooding rivers was used as a legitimizing political narrative by Fusang and other Sinicized states, who tied flood control and effective irrigation to holding the Mandate of Heaven. The flooding caused by the landslide that created the Bridge of the Gods in the 1450s led to a major rebellion in nearby Huayang and the Conglong Valley, and a massive nationwide flood in the 1860s, in which the entire Chaoyang Valley briefly became an inland sea among other things, economically crippled Fusang, completely discredited its dynasty, and led to a surge in Fuxingyundong membership that brought about Chinese reunification by the end of the decade.

The Haida become devout Buddhists and renounce their slaving and raiding ways, with a large Muslim minority due to heavily participating in the trans Pacific trade routes. Due to the trade routes taking them through Polynesian islands, they could have syncretized many elements of Polynesian mythology like Maui taking on Coyote/Raven elements. A few Haida traders who made contact with the Maori came back believing they are a Maori tribe that got very lost during the settlement of Aotearoa/Mittagsland.

The remote islands and wilderness of Alaska attracts many Buddhist monks who use the lack of civilization and harsh climate to live an ascetic existence. The region is also the site of fierce religious competition between Fusang and Korean/Japanese sects of Buddhism.

Wyam, as Huayang, becomes another major city in the Fusang core and a vehicle for the spread of Old World religions and philosophies deeper into the continent. The Pagoda Path (rename pending) of Buddhist temples and monasteries goes south from Hongzhou to Huayang, and from there one route goes east through Dashi Pass to Liaoning, while the other continues through the Conglong and Chaoyang Valleys to Jinshan and then Zhumasi. The route continues much further than that (down to the edge of Baja California and into Sonora), but as the region south of Zhumasi is a constant battlefield, Fusang and the other Sinicized states don’t invest too much on that leg.

In China, many believe that Xi Wangmu, the Queen Mother of the West, holds court on Kunlun Mountain in the west. In Fusang, the more obscure Dong Wanggong, the Old King of the East, is elevated in the pantheon and considered to live on one of the highest peaks of the Wanli Mountains (the exact peak is subject to debate as each state claims it is a mountain within their border for religious clout).

In China, the water god Gonggong was said to have broken the pillars of heaven, tilting the earth’s axis so that water drained to the southeast and the western regions were more elevated than the eastern ones. The primordial goddess Nüwa fixed the pillars but was unable to correct the tilt, explaining China’s geography. In Fusang, the legend is reinterpreted in the opposite direction, with the axis tilting so the east is more elevated than the west, water drains to the west, and the primordial god Fuxi fixing the pillars.

The old legends of Fusang being the place where the sun rises mixes with the legend of Houyi, who shot down nine out of ten suns (represented as three-legged crows) when they all rose from Fusang at the same time. The crows are interpreted as a trick played by Raven. The Chinese assume that the crows roosted in in the Wanli Range. Many natives claimed Houyi as one of their folk heroes. The Klamath people’s mythology for the eruption of Mount Mazama is reinterpreted with this new cultural context. Originally, the myth was a battle between the gods Llao, who emerged from Mount Mazama and rained fire down upon the people, and Skell, who tried to protect the people from Mount Shasta and ultimately triumphed over Llao with the sacrifice of two holy men and the destruction of Mount Mazama. The Sinicized myth has the nine suns emerging from Mount Mazama at once, to be opposed by Houyi, who journeys to Mount Mazama from Mount Shasta, shoots down the suns, and then sacrifices himself by collapsing Mount Mazama with himself still on it. Another part of the myth is that the nine suns hovered directly over Tufangjia and the Desert Southwest region, which is why those areas are hotter than the northern regions or scorching desert.

I’ve now passed 15 hours writing this, so I am ending it there and going to sleep. And to think I started this post in the morning saying I had slept on yesterday’s discussion…

Damn, that’s lot of research and lore you have here. I don’t want stress you out too much, but I am curious to how the Purepecha empire came and went and what its relationship with Fusang would be? I definitely see Buddhism spreading into western Mexico when Fusang discovered the region on its way to Twantinsuyu, and maybe some Liao/Dine head down south to help Tariácuri fend off the Mexica and establish the Purepecha Empire along Chinese lines.

With how popular youxia/ronin media and presumably pirate fiction is in Fusang (I could see Fusang using privateers against the Goryeo and Later Jin in particular), some part of me wonders how yakuza and triads would develop in Fusang and influence pop culture, especially after during Chinese colonial rule and the aftermath of Ruaidhrí MacLiam‘s intervention/WW3, as well what Fusang’s equivalents to Pacific Northwest supernatural shows like Gravity Falls and Twin Peaks would look like?

Now I’m wondering if Fusang would have its own branch of the Inquisition via the Church of the East and Empress Catherine’s promotion of Christianity? Same question goes for Japan and Penglai. I’m also wondering how much of Fusang’s mythology would play into real supernatural shenanigans on the story-side in DE and if X-Division or some local equivalent would get involved?

 

[zenphoenix]

Damn, that’s lot of research and lore you have here. I don’t want stress you out too much, but I am curious to how the Purepecha empire came and went and what its relationship with Fusang would be? I definitely see Buddhism spreading into western Mexico when Fusang discovered the region on its way to Twantinsuyu, and maybe some Liao/Dine head down south to help Tariácuri fend off the Mexica and establish the Purepecha Empire along Chinese lines.

I’d have to move up the establishment of the Purépecha empire since the rise of the Mexica was moved up a few hundred years. As in OTL, its first ruler received a vision telling him to unite the Purépecha peoples. This would be around the mid-12th century, once the Mexica expansion is well underway. The Mexica Empire would not have gotten far into the Mihoacán region yet, instead focusing on northern expansion onto the Liao Plains. Early Fusang merchants dock in the harbors of Mihoacán, Colima, and Jalisco, finding that the latter two regions had saltpeter that could be used for gunpowder and the former had plentiful tin, gold, and silver. Considering the Purépecha more civilized than their neighbors due to their advanced metallurgy, the Fusang court sends diplomats to negotiate an alliance and monks to convert their rulers. Iron weapons, gunpowder, and horses are granted to them in exchange for saltpeter, tin, gold, silver, conversion to Buddhism, and submission to the emperor. Muslims also make some converts in the port cities. The conversion and Sinicization of the Purépecha is used as a model for subsequent policies in Tawantinsuyu both to secure more resources and to counter the Mexica. Acapulco (Nahua: Acapolco, Chinese: 蘆港 Lúgǎng "Reed Port" from the etymology of the Nahua name with "Port" added on) is founded as a trade outpost to handle the trans-Pacific trade routes, with a nearby military base to protect the merchants from the Mexica. It survives long after the Purépecha themselves are conquered but ultimately falls in the same military campaigns that see the fall of Zhumasi and Tufangjia.

With how popular youxia/ronin media and presumably pirate fiction is in Fusang (I could see Fusang using privateers against the Goryeo and Later Jin in particular), some part of me wonders how yakuza and triads would develop in Fusang and influence pop culture

Organized crime wouldn’t take off, especially in popular culture, until brought over by the second wave of immigrants. Fusang’s literature would instead have their roles filled by secret societies, regional cults, and merchant guilds.

especially after during Chinese colonial rule and the aftermath of Ruaidhrí MacLiam‘s intervention/WW3

While triads and yakuza would figure, so would the image of the honorable ronin fleeing the conquest of his ikki, or a ninja swearing revenge for the destruction of his clan, or secret societies doing secret stuff.

as well what Fusang’s equivalents to Pacific Northwest supernatural shows like Gravity Falls and Twin Peaks would look like?

Since things like vision quests were incorporated into Chinese culture, modern Fusang would create some very surreal fiction. I can't say exactly what they would look like yet because that would require going through their history to the 20th century.

Now I’m wondering if Fusang would have its own branch of the Inquisition via the Church of the East and Empress Catherine’s promotion of Christianity?

Probably not. The Inquisition was a very European Catholic institution (here a Roman Orthodox one), so it would generally operate within Roman territories and countries with Orthodox communities. As an institution and concept it would be foreign to the Church of the East. I'm thinking of making Catherine an adherent of the Church of the East, albeit a reformer incorporating elements from the Orthodox Church. Still no Inquisition though, as she doesn't want to risk angering the non-Christians who make up a majority of the empire.

Same question goes for Japan and Penglai.

The Japanese Orthodox, like the Shiba, would have rejected an Inquisition for the same reason as Catherine, due to being a religious minority in their own country. They would be especially appalled by the religious violence the Inquisition committed during the Fifty Years' War and know that non-Christians fear the same thing might happen in Japan. So like the Reich they adopt a very tolerant policy towards non-Christians while focusing their efforts on standardizing doctrines and dealing with heretics. The emperor of Japan is allowed to stay in his palace in Kyoto as killing him and usurping his throne would immediately cause massive rebellions from non-Christians and destroy the Shiba's legitimacy. All the Shiba do is deny that he is a descendant of Amaterasu, but this is not a policy they enforce on non-Christians.

Penglai has very few Christians due to the Church of the East being effectively dead in China during the Southern Song, and its small Christian community has generally reverted to folk practices with few remaining organized institutions. They've syncretized heavily with Sufi Muslims in terms of becoming monotheistic folk religions with heavy Chinese cultural influence.

I’m also wondering how much of Fusang’s mythology would play into real supernatural shenanigans on the story-side in DE and if X-Division or some local equivalent would get involved?

Not quite sure at this point. But definitely not X-Division.