The Hohenzollern Chronicles 5: Reborn Phoenix - The Roman Story in New World Order

[zenphoenix]

I remember we discussed the Nahua/Mongol slave trade awhile ago, so I wonder if serfdom would catch on in Rusia like in OTL's Russia? Also since Rusia bent the knee to the Mongols peacefully, does that mean the Mongols would come to the aid of northern Rusian settlements being attacked by the Mexica?

Probably not, since serfdom was a later development. There would be slavery, though, until a later knyaz or tsar banned the practice. If Rus' submitted to the Mongols peacefully, I don't see why Jochi or his successor wouldn't defend them against the Mexica.

Also would these PM ideas still work in this scenario? I think above you implied Kirill was older than Saint Wilhelmina, which suggests an extramarital affair before or during Fredrich's marriage to Konstantina and Wilhelmina's birth in 1110. Also since you suggested Sbyslava dying during the Perm crusade (I think the name can stay if its based on the site of the crusade's defeat like the Varna crusade), I could see the crusader lords propping up Kirill and the remaining Christian Rusians until the defeat of the former leaves the latter alone alone.

It would work even better, because Kirill being older makes his claim appear more legitimate. And I do agree about the surviving crusader lords helping prop up Kirill, sort of like the crusaders in Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade.

Btw, what would the Grand Canyon be called in Fusang?

Yumen Gorge (禹門峽). Sinicized myths claim that Yu the Great cleaved a path here through the desert for the Ankuang River. Local Hopi consider this the place where their ancestors emerged from the Third World, so after Sinicization, they adopt Yu the Great as the one who led them into the current Fourth World by cutting a hole open for them.

While researching this, I learned that the Navajo/Diné would have started migrating south from Canada around the 800s to 1100s. For convenience I'll have them arriving on the Plains around the late 1100s, in time to meet the Liao arriving over the mountains and the Puebloans fleeing up from the south.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Also I wonder if the Time of Troubles would affect Rusia in TTL? Since the 1600 Huaynaputina eruption still happened here, I preusme Rusia still be hit with a famine caused by that eruption, which might weaken Rusia enough for Lithunia to strike. While we're here, what affect would other Little Ice Age volcanic eruptions have here?

 

[zenphoenix]

Also I wonder if the Time of Troubles would affect Rusia in TTL? Since the 1600 Huaynaputina eruption still happened here, I preusme Rusia still be hit with a famine caused by that eruption, which might weaken Rusia enough for Lithunia to strike. While we're here, what affect would other Little Ice Age volcanic eruptions have here?

Economically, yes. Would lead into the Lithuanian invasion and the rise of Giedre, while causing some internal conflicts and unrest, but nothing on the scale of a succession crisis. Don't know about the other Little Ice Age volcanic eruptions yet.

 

[zenphoenix]

Also since OTL LA became a big city due to oil and aqueduct projects, I wonder how the extraction of oil would play into Chinese rule over Fusang?

Since you brought up protest songs before, I was thinking more about this and thought about how Chinese rule in Fusang would be dominated by powerful manufacturing and mining corporations who wouldn't care what they're trampling over in pursuit of profit, especially when the Chinese government demands resources to fuel its war machine and industrialization in the lead-up to World War I. So you could see an emergence of a union-based socialist movement which has broad public support from among Fusangren. This would be reflected in protest songs becoming symbols of resistance against company rule. In the 1980s, the Fusang independence movement initially draws from these movements and organizations, but they are coopted, sidelined, and then purged by UVR- and UPRH-backed equalists like the anarchists, syndicalists, and democrats of the OTL Spanish Civil War were purged by Soviet-backed Stalinists. That dealt a heavy blow to local Fusang socialism which is still recovering in 2030.

Also, after listening to a few tracks from the Twin Peaks soundtrack for the first time in years, I think Fusang's surreal horror media would take more from Scandinavian horror (like Midsommar, though I only know that one from a few reviews), which draws on a lot of Norse folklore, in addition to David Lynch-style stuff.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Since you brought up protest songs before, I was thinking more about this and thought about how Chinese rule in Fusang would be dominated by powerful manufacturing and mining corporations who wouldn't care what they're trampling over in pursuit of profit, especially when the Chinese government demands resources to fuel its war machine and industrialization in the lead-up to World War I. So you could see an emergence of a union-based socialist movement which has broad public support from among Fusangren. This would be reflected in protest songs becoming symbols of resistance against company rule. In the 1980s, the Fusang independence movement initially draws from these movements and organizations, but they are coopted, sidelined, and then purged by UVR- and UPRH-backed equalists like the anarchists, syndicalists, and democrats of the OTL Spanish Civil War were purged by Soviet-backed Stalinists. That dealt a heavy blow to local Fusang socialism which is still recovering in 2030.

Also, after listening to a few tracks from the Twin Peaks soundtrack for the first time in years, I think Fusang's surreal horror media would take more from Scandinavian horror (like Midsommar, though I only know that one from a few reviews), which draws on a lot of Norse folklore, in addition to David Lynch-style stuff.

I wonder what Fusang’s equivalent to the counterculture and civil rights movements would be like, since it’s obvious indigenous groups are discriminated against even by the modern day, as evident by the flag leaving out a color for them as previously discussed? As you said, I could see the Equalists co-opting legitimate concerns, but I could also see inspiration from Lynx Noir and the non-violent movements of Abraham Green and “Hirohito” (which makes me wonder how Japanese independence would go in DE?) I’m also assuming that just like the Equalists lead to Fusang’s leftism to take a hit in credibility, the MSC occupation of Zhumasi would also lead to natives being demonized further by the nationalist government Fusang had in WW4.

Building on surreal horror, I feel like Asian Chinese rule, the Roman intervention in Fusang, and the MSC war could lead to media about a war torn Fusang looking either like Spec-Ops: The Line or Disco Elysium. Going back further, someone would probably write a dark subversion of Ronin stories akin to the book Blood Meridian.

 

[zenphoenix]

I wonder what Fusang’s equivalent to the counterculture and civil rights movements would be like, since it’s obvious indigenous groups are discriminated against even by the modern day, as evident by the flag leaving out a color for them as previously discussed?

While there is discrimination against indigenous groups, it's more cultural in that the majority of indigenous groups (coastal ones as opposed to the ones in the Great Basin, the Wanli Range, and the Liao Plains) have fully Sinicized and been absorbed into the Han majority, with the ones left over considered uncivilized for still being distinct. Hence most Fusangren think the flag is sufficient: those indigenous that "matter" are already represented through the Han color (or the Liao one). The Han Chinese of Fusang themselves are discriminated against by mainland Chinese as being barely above the indigenous peoples due to their ancestry, culture, and centuries of political, cultural, and geographic separation from China proper. So it becomes something like the class system in Spanish colonies, where the colonizing class from the mainland is at the top, followed by mixed-race locals, and then indigenous peoples at the bottom. Fusang's independence movement had many Fusangren, having learned about the Mingzhi Constitution and the Fuxingyundong's original goals, question this system and call for full rights to be given to indigenous peoples. So the independence movement has a socialist wing and an indigenous rights wing. The former is coopted and taken over by the UVR, while the latter is coopted and taken over by the UPRH which uses them as a vehicle to push their own ideologies. The "Republic of Fusang" as a result ends up being controlled by a UVR-backed equalist faction that seeks to impose Ligdan's system of volosts upon Fusang and a UPRH-backed pan-Eimerican/Hahnunahist faction that seeks to expand the UPRH to the Pacific coast (with some radical factions calling for deportations or purges of all non-native peoples). They fight each other more than the Chinese government or the Roman troops sent to restore order and only serve to discredit both of the original independence factions.

As you said, I could see the Equalists co-opting legitimate concerns, but I could also see inspiration from Lynx Noir and the non-violent movements of Abraham Green

The Japanese of Fusang definitely were inspired by similar movements happening in Japan, as well as their ikki traditions.

“Hirohito” (which makes me wonder how Japanese independence would go in DE?)

I think I'll change "Hirohito" to a counterpart of TESB's Mutsuhito, with Tomoe in a major role again. Since I've already drawn heavily on the history of the British Raj for Goryeo's colonial rule in Japan, I could continue with the parallels. In the 19th and 20th century, Japan is completely dominated by Goryeo. Kyushu, Shikoku, Hokkaido, and Sakhalin are directly administered as provinces, western Honshu is divided up among the few remaining puppet clans, and eastern Honshu is directly ruled by the janggun/shogun (still ruling in Japan after the Ch'oe clan was deposed in Korea) via several regional military commissions headed by Chinese generals. When Ryukyu and then China become democracies, Goryeo follows along, yet it refuses to grant the Japanese representation. The first independence movements start as Japanese reformers call for representation in Goryeo's democratic government, only to be rejected. It soon radicalizes into full independence from Goryeo. Many rally around the imperial house, which is allowed to still rule as kings in Kyoto, while Christians rally around the deposed Shiba clan—whose main line is currently in exile in Shibatan, Fusang. Initial attempts at violent rebellion (a Sepoy Mutiny-style rebellion with the same inciting incidents wouldn’t work, but maybe a rebellion on the same scale started by peasant sects or new Buddhist movements, as happened in Japan every so often) are put down by Chinese and Korean troops. In the 20th century, you get figures like “Hirohito” calling for independence but along peaceful lines, a “Jinnah” who wants a separate state for Christians, a “Bose” figure who is willing to ally with really dangerous enemies of China and Goryeo like the Angeloi and UVR, and so on.

I’ll build on my previous discussion here. Goryeo’s industry, making use of Fusang’s natural resources, powers much of China’s war effort during World War II. After the war, Goryeo is left exhausted and economically in tatters. Same with China, which now has to deal with an increasingly rebellious Southeast Asia and the UVR border. The Sino-Korean colonial administration in Japan is deemed a low priority, so the budget is cut. Goryeo suggests that Japan gain independence in Honshu only and as a semi-decentralized federation, with the noble clans like the Ōuchi enjoying autonomy in the west at Yamaguchi, a Christian state under a Shiba shogun (the title having transferred to them from the Ch'oe as a demand made to Kaesong) in the east at Kamakura, and the emperor reigning directly over the center from Kyoto as head of state of the whole federation. While this plan is accepted at first, it breaks down very quickly. The Shiba shogun initially declares his fealty to the emperor in Kyoto, but the Kamakura government (dominated by former clans and other non-Japanese and Christian demographics) takes steps to align away from Kyoto and Goryeo and towards outside powers like the Reich. In response, the Kyoto government attempts to centralize power and prevent the same thing from happening in Yamaguchi, sending troops to forcibly depose the clans and seize their assets (like OTL India did with the remaining princely states). Thus the federal system collapses (though it continues existing on paper) and the modern border emerges (though I'll probably adjust it again). The “Shogunate” still recognizes the emperor as head of state but for all intents and purposes is an independent state.

Goryeo attempts to hold onto Kyushu, Shikoku, Hokkaido, and Sakhalin as provinces. Independence movements there escalate into violent rebellion akin to The Troubles in the former two and outright civil war in the latter two. Shikoku, with its history of defiance to both Goryeo and the Yuan/Later Jin and the legacy of Tsuruhime, is quickly lost and integrated into Japan (the imperial one). Ainu Mosir resists for years before Goryeo gives up and grants it independence under a sort of elective monarchy/noble republic hybrid with the Andō clan as a "first among equals" for the Ainu and Japanese clans of the region (and technically part of the Japanese federation as the Andō acknowledge the emperor as their head of state too, yet like the "Shogunate" is also effectively independent). Kyushu, with its large Korean population, remains under Goryeo's rule for a little longer due to neither side being able to gain an advantage over the other. Goryeo also flip-flops between democracy and the restoration of the janggun or other military regimes in this period, most of which refuse to withdraw from Kyushu. A democratic regime in the 1960s eventually reaches an agreement with the Kyushu independence movement, agreeing to cede the island to Japan in exchange for keeping Tsushima (used as a Goryeo naval base under the name Taema 대마 (對馬)) and Nagasaki (a fishing village that was settled by Koreans under the name Janggi 장기 (長崎) and made a major port to attract Roman and Ryukyuan merchants), with provisions for them rejoining Japan should their populations vote for it in plebiscites.

Nagasaki is seized by Sakamoto's army in the chaos of World War IV and Kaesong being purged by Jerusalem, while Goryeo's navy (maintaining cohesion and chain of command in the absence of civilian leadership) repels his navy when it attempts to take Tsushima, but it is unable to free Nagasaki due to lack of surviving ground forces. I know I said how I was going to retcon the big naval battle between China and Japan in the game, but maybe I could use it here even though it took place somewhere else.

I’m also assuming that just like the Equalists lead to Fusang’s leftism to take a hit in credibility, the MSC occupation of Zhumasi would also lead to natives being demonized further by the nationalist government Fusang had in WW4.

As mentioned above, the indigenous rights movement was demonized due to being hijacked by the UPRH, resulting in reprisals and neglect from the independent Fusang government and urban Asian populations. The result is indigenous communities are pushed further into poverty and crime by lack of representation, reduced economic opportunities, police brutality, and other things. This makes a large number of them, not just the small Nahua minority left over from the Mexica conquests, receptive to MSC's message. But just as with the 1980s rebellion, MSC's suppression leads to even harsher reprisals against indigenous peoples, fueling the rise of nationalist movements among the Asian populations of Fusang that further blame indigenous peoples as traitors and barbarians. That leads Fusang to where it's at in 2038.

Building on surreal horror, I feel like Asian Chinese rule, the Roman intervention in Fusang, and the MSC war could lead to media about a war torn Fusang looking either like Spec-Ops: The Line or Disco Elysium. Going back further, someone would probably write a dark subversion of Ronin stories akin to the book Blood Meridian.

I can see something like Disco Elysium being made in North Eimerica, probably one of the successor states to the UPRH, while Fusang would have surreal horror/Scandinavian-style horror that pokes at the socioeconomic inequality its post-independence society still suffers from. Deconstructions of ronin/youxia stories would be popular.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

When Ryukyu and then China become democracies

Looking back at EU4, Ryukyu democratized during the Nikephorian wars and was said to have been inspired by the Reich's succession dispute in the original chapter, so I wonder if there would be something like the Napoleonic code for Ryukyu to take inspiration from, presumably Prince Nikephorus pulling a Napoleon and implementing the Augustinian Code, with his own additions to the code included, in occupied territories? Heck, maybe the spread of revolutionary ideas to Penglai could be one motivating factor in China taking control there.

Since the five years war happened around the same time the Industrial Revolution was taking off, I also wonder how industrial warfare and colonial extraction for resources would develop here?

Also since you talked about making the Persian revolution more successful in DE for a bit, I think it would make sense to have Prince Nikephorus and Eskander Yinal kill each other in a big Waterloo style battle.

 

[zenphoenix]

Looking back at EU4, Ryukyu democratized during the Nikephorian wars and was said to have been inspired by the Reich's succession dispute in the original chapter, so I wonder if there would be something like the Napoleonic code for Ryukyu to take inspiration from, presumably Prince Nikephorus pulling a Napoleon and implementing the Augustinian Code, with his own additions to the code included, in occupied territories? Heck, maybe the spread of revolutionary ideas to Penglai could be one motivating factor in China taking control there.

Since Ryukyu had been heavily militarized since the Mongol invasion and even more militarized after the Korean invasion, a military aristocracy would have developed, gradually gaining political power akin to Goryeo's janggun and Japan's shogun. Whereas the former's military regime was dismantled due to being replaced by the Ming court and the latter was forcibly deposed and absorbed into a colonial institution, Ryukyu's would only fall when the monarchy itself reasserts power. I could see a particularly reformist king, queen, or high priestess be inspired by Prince Nikephoros' reforms and use them as a means to overthrow the military aristocracy. To prevent their return, they then pass a democratic constitution which ensures that political and military power are held by the people. From there, democracy spreads throughout the Pacific.

India's early democratic movements come from Iskandar Yinal sympathizers but are eventually subsumed into the meritocratic movement coming from the Reich. Democracy still remains popular among the colonized peoples of Central Asia, though.

Ryukyuan democratic activists filter into Japan by crossing from Ryukyuan-controlled Tanegashima to Korean-controlled Kagoshima, causing sporadic democratic uprisings in first Kyushu and then northern Honshu and Hokkaido.

Ryukyuan democracy is considered in Vietnam, Penglai, and Fusang but really only take off in the latter, where proto-Fuxingyundong movements emerge. There are two strains of Fusang democracy: the kind that wants equality and representation for all peoples in Fusang under the emperor, and the nationalistic kind that calls for the unification of all of the Sinosphere under a single democracy.

. Vietnam briefly considers it but decides to instead focus on reforming its civil service exam to make it easier for commoners to study and enroll, though some of the major cities experiment with municipal elections. Most voting rights are limited to Vietnamese and Chinese, though. Similar experiments are done in Goryeo, but they are generally limited to major cities in the Korean peninsula at first.

Penglai doesn't do much. Its economy has been in shambles for centuries. After restoring contact in the 15th century, it initially prospered due to exporting massive amounts of gold (the mines found in the OTL Australian gold rushes, but found centuries earlier) to mainland Asians in exchange for manufactured goods, but when contact was reestablished with Fusang, everybody switched over to the trans-Pacific trade instead. As a result, Penglai's economy stagnated and was left behind. Eventually, the Ming make the same offer they made to Goryeo, and the imperial court accepts. The navy-led military dictatorship of the Gaojiang resists at first, leading to a Ming military intervention that results in Penglai's navy being destroyed or absorbed into the Ming navy, the imperial court being reduced to ceremonial kings, and the country being divided up into Ming regional military commissions. Early Penglai independence movements sometimes emerged with democratic strains in opposition to Ming colonial rule. Persian-style democratic ideas filtered in from the Indian colony of Daksinarastra.

Huh, it seems like a lot of Sinosphere nations had military dictatorships, now that I've looked at it this way. The sole exceptions are Fusang (though the Hongzhou court did take over the military-led Zhumasi court) and the Ming. For the Ming, I was researching the early years of the dynasty and came up with the idea to have the Jianwen Emperor defeat his uncle Zhu Di, the future Yongle Emperor, and remain on the throne. While this means that many of Zhu Di's overseas expansion campaigns wouldn't happen, like Zheng He's treasure fleet voyages, this also means that the military aristocracy that formed around Zhu Di and the other sons of Zhu Yuanzhang/the Hongwu Emperor would be held in check by the civil service bureaucracy. The Jianwen Emperor is a blank slate in OTL due to most records of his short reign being erased, so I could have him further expand the civilian representation in the bureaucracy at the expense of the military, relax many of the harsher laws of the Hongwu Emperor, and restore the office of chancellor in full (if I end up retconning myself again and having the Hongwu Emperor still abolish the position). This leads to a gradual restoration of Song-style economy and society, fueled by gold and silver coming in from Penglai, Fusang, and Tawantinsuyu, which leads to a scientific and philosophical revolution. After the Persian and Ryukyuan revolutions, many Ming intellectuals debate between the Roman-Vietnamese model of further meritocratic reform or the Persian-Ryukyuan model of democracy. Supporters of the latter eventually are absorbed into the Fuxingyundong.

The unification wars of the 1860s start in Fusang with the devastating floods that see the dynasty deposed and a Fuxingyundong government take power. This then spreads to the other side of Asia, particularly Penglai and the other Ming and Tran colonies. The Ming emperor decides to embrace the movement in the hopes of taking it over, while the Tran emperor resists with Roman backing, sparking hostilities between the two. The Roman-Indian-Vietnamese alliance is ultimately defeated by the Ming-Fusang-Penglai (Ming colony)-Goryeo alliance. After the fall of Thang Long and Gia Dinh and the evacuation of the Tran court to Roman Löwenhaven, the Ming emperor proclaims the unification of the Sinosphere under the Chinese Empire, decreeing a democratic constitution inspired by the Ryukyuan model (not the Persian one though). Penglai, Fusang, Vietnam, and all of the Ming and Tran colonies become provinces of China, abolishing the old regional military commissions outside of parts of Southeast Asia and on the Fusang and Siberian frontiers. Goryeo remains independent, but it is little more than an autonomous province with its own government at this point. Its colonies in Japan are still administered under the same system as before.

In Ryukyu, there is a scare that the Chinese population of Kuninda may try to take over and push for annexation into China, leading to the people of Kuninda to pivot heavily towards Ryukyuan nationalism and militarism to reject unification, putting Ryukyu on its current path.

I may have said this before, but I probably will rename Fuxingyundong. It doesn't sound right.

Also since you talked about making the Persian revolution more successful in DE for a bit, I think it would make sense to have Prince Nikephorus and Eskander Yinal kill each other in a big Waterloo style battle.

Waterloo-style battle, yes. Nikephoros' death there, sure. Having him and Iskandar Yinal kill each other? Might be a bit out there, since military commanders and royalty rarely took to the field at that point, let alone engage in single combat on the front lines.

Since the five years war happened around the same time the Industrial Revolution was taking off, I also wonder how industrial warfare and colonial extraction for resources would develop here?

It would fuel the growth of Chinese and Vietnamese companies, building on Tang and Song economic models. There were joint-stock companies in the Tang-Song era, and I could see further capitalist developments emerging under the Ming and Tran with the empowering of its civilian government and the emergence of a lucrative manufacturing industry paid for by Penglai, Fusang, and Tawantinsuyu gold and silver. Many of these companies grow rich off manufacturing weapons for the Five Years' War and later the unification wars. In a united China, they further take advantage of the removal of borders to expand across the Pacific in search of more resources to exploit, leading to their actions in Fusang.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Huh, it seems like a lot of Sinosphere nations had military dictatorships, now that I've looked at it this way. The sole exceptions are Fusang (though the Hongzhou court did take over the military-led Zhumasi court) and the Ming. For the Ming, I was researching the early years of the dynasty and came up with the idea to have the Jianwen Emperor defeat his uncle Zhu Di, the future Yongle Emperor, and remain on the throne. While this means that many of Zhu Di's overseas expansion campaigns wouldn't happen, like Zheng He's treasure fleet voyages, this also means that the military aristocracy that formed around Zhu Di and the other sons of Zhu Yuanzhang/the Hongwu Emperor would be held in check by the civil service bureaucracy. The Jianwen Emperor is a blank slate in OTL due to most records of his short reign being erased, so I could have him further expand the civilian representation in the bureaucracy at the expense of the military, relax many of the harsher laws of the Hongwu Emperor, and restore the office of chancellor in full (if I end up retconning myself again and having the Hongwu Emperor still abolish the position). This leads to a gradual restoration of Song-style economy and society, fueled by gold and silver coming in from Penglai, Fusang, and Tawantinsuyu, which leads to a scientific and philosophical revolution. After the Persian and Ryukyuan revolutions, many Ming intellectuals debate between the Roman-Vietnamese model of further meritocratic reform or the Persian-Ryukyuan model of democracy. Supporters of the latter eventually are absorbed into the Fuxingyundong.

Does Zhu Biao still die prematurely, because I wonder how him living long enough to become emperor would affect things? Also since the Northern Red Turbans apparently wanted to restore the Song Dynasty, is there a chance they or other groups, like the Chen Han, would end in either Fusang or Penglai after the Ming dynasty is established, especially with Zhu Yuanzhang's purges? Huh, maybe there's a way for Zheng He's expediations to still happen through Zhang Shicheng or Fang Guozhen.

Since the Ming didn't turn to isolationism and instead embraced expansionism, does that mean the Hongwu Emperor's sea ban and prohibition of private foreign trade wouldn't be implemented here?

Also I know you retconned the event of mercenaries pillaging the Ghaznavid empire during the Five Years' War, but I wonder if that war would contribute to the Ghaznavid empire being annexed by India and China later on?

 

[zenphoenix]

Does Zhu Biao still die prematurely, because I wonder how him living long enough to become emperor would affect things? Also since the Northern Red Turbans apparently wanted to restore the Song Dynasty, is there a chance they or other groups would end in either Fusang or Penglai after the Ming dynasty is established, especially with Zhu Yuanzhang's purges? Huh, maybe there's a way for Zheng He's expediations to still happen through Zhang Shicheng or Fang Guozhen.

I'm not sure if I want to keep Zhu Biao alive or go with the Jianwen Emperor. I'll have to do more research on the former.

Han Lin'er's restored Song Dynasty initially has the loyalty of Zhu Yuanzhang, but his death by drowning puts an end to that, and Zhu seizes power for himself. Zhang Shicheng and Fang Guozheng are still defeated by Zhu Yuanzhang, with the latter surrendering and being granted favorable terms under his new administration. Due to the Yuan remaining in control in the north, Red Turban armies never invade Goryeo and sack its major cities. None of the Red Turban rebels had the logistics or experience needed to get ocean-going ships and then launch them from Japan, so they wouldn't have fled. But I already mentioned in the old lore how Zhu Yuanzhang wanted ships sent out from China to search for the lost Song heir and to gain more allies against the Yuan, and in the new lore I had his grandfather be one of the soldiers at the Battle of Yamen. So there's a chance that he sends out the voyages and his successor merely continues them.

Also, I should probably rename Nanjing to Yingtian, since the capital was never moved to Beijing (Beiping).

Since the Ming didn't turn to isolationism and instead embraced expansionism, does that mean the Hongwu Emperor's sea ban and prohibition of private foreign trade wouldn't be implemented here?

Because of Zhu Yuanzhang's personal interest in finding the lost Song heir and pragmatic interest in gaining more allies besides Goryeo and Vietnam, there is no sea ban or prohibition on foreign trade but instead a policy of outward expansion, though there are factions favoring northern land expansion or southern sea expansion depending on what the emperor is interested in at the moment. This means a more powerful Ming navy and freer trade which means there are fewer reasons for the wokou to emerge.

Vietnam also has a similar policy, but more land-focused due to its emperors wanting to expand in Southeast Asia but still wanting to take advantage of new overseas trade routes as they don't have easy access to the Silk Road (same as the Ming).

Also I know you retconned the event of mercenaries pillaging the Ghaznavid empire during the Five Years' War, but I wonder if that war would contribute to the Ghaznavid empire being annexed by India and China later on?

I guess so, but I'll have to look into it more.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Also, I should probably rename Nanjing to Yingtian, since the capital was never moved to Beijing (Beiping).

Didn’t the Hongwu Emperor try to move the capital to his hometown but was prevented by a famine? Does that still happen here and would it succeed?

 

[zenphoenix]

Didn’t the Hongwu Emperor try to move the capital to his hometown but was prevented by a famine? Does that still happen here and would it succeed?

I could have him establish "Zhongdu" as a summer residence for the imperial court, though his successors would keep the main capital in Nanjing/Yingtian. I couldn't find evidence on the plans being stopped by a famine, though there was a famine in the region before construction began.

 

[GhostRider124]

Turns out I didn't read my sources clearly enough. There was a Jurchen revolt in 1343, and some Jurchen clans claimed the title of Jin successors in 1348, but it wasn't a Manchuria-wide rebellion where the Yuan lost complete control. The Yuan retained control over Manchuria (as "Liaoyang Province," which I'll use for Chinese (遼陽) and Korean (요양/Yoyang) administrative units in the future and DE instead of Nurgan, which will still remain as the Jurchen name) until the Ming invaded in 1387, long after the Yuan had collapsed in China proper. That helps me on the "Yuan don't completely collapse but remain in Northern China with help from the Timurids and the rest of the Mongol Empire" front, and I no longer have to move up Goryeo's northern expansion to the 14th century. Since the Ming are in no position to project power in Northeast Asia for a long time, Goryeo has all the time it needs to slowly expand against the Yuan remnants and Jurchen tribes. That also lets me preserve parts of the "Big Manchu" blob by having it be part of the Yuan remnants. So I could have the Mongol puppet shogunate survive a bit longer, until it's isolated by Goryeo conquering mainland Manchuria and Sakhalin, after which it falls apart and Goryeo gets an opportunity to invade from the north.

So in the recon the Manchu's in Siberia are just Yuan refugees?

Kyoto falls, and with it the Japanese imperial house falls into Yuan hands.

I think I remember hearing that the Kamikaze were important in establishing Japans national identity to the point that many believed that it was proof from the gods that Japan could not be conquered. Since the Kamikaze do not happen as they did in OTL how different would Japanese society be by TTL's 2000's?

In the coming decades, as Beijing and northern China become buffer regions and the site of many battles with the Ming, the Yuan become increasingly centered on and ruling from Kamakura, relying heavily on Japanese and Jurchen soldiers for its armies.

Since northern China is more of a frontier region in TTL would Beijing have grown to the importance that it is in OTL?

I learned that Halley's Comet appeared in 1066, 1145, 1222, and 1301. I should probably do something with those appearances.

I think that sounds like a good idea and it is a way to still pay homage to the games you built your world on.

The Eiso dynasty until his grandson, after which the Sanzan period began, which I'm not going to cover because the sources we have are contradictory and unclear as to what exactly was going on. But this period sees growing urbanization, militarization, Sinicization, adoption of Buddhism, and trade with China.

Well I heard a saying that makes sense for the most part and I think that it would mean the same here. "there are three sides to every story. 1 Is one side, 2 is the other sides, and 3 is the truth.".

Yeah, I’m just gonna go with killing Olaf Tryggvason before he does anything to be simpler.

I wonder if you could still go with the original idea of him not going to the fortune teller not telling him to unite Norway since sometimes I feel like a common trope of alternate history is having one person die and another one living so I think that if you do that you could avoid that trope?

Since you brought up protest songs before, I was thinking more about this and thought about how Chinese rule in Fusang would be dominated by powerful manufacturing and mining corporations who wouldn't care what they're trampling over in pursuit of profit, especially when the Chinese government demands resources to fuel its war machine and industrialization in the lead-up to World War I. So you could see an emergence of a union-based socialist movement which has broad public support from among Fusangren. This would be reflected in protest songs becoming symbols of resistance against company rule. In the 1980s, the Fusang independence movement initially draws from these movements and organizations, but they are coopted, sidelined, and then purged by UVR- and UPRH-backed equalists like the anarchists, syndicalists, and democrats of the OTL Spanish Civil War were purged by Soviet-backed Stalinists. That dealt a heavy blow to local Fusang socialism which is still recovering in 2030.

With unions fighting against exploitative corporations I wonder if you could look into the Coal Wars of OTL's 1890 – 1930 or more specifically the Battle of Blair Mountain these wars could help explain how Fusang went from one of the most pro-Democracy places to one of the most coderivative. Kind of like OTL's West Virginia?

(which makes me wonder how Japanese independence would go in DE?)

In the 20th century, you get figures like “Hirohito” calling for independence but along peaceful lines, a “Jinnah” who wants a separate state for Christians, a “Bose” figure who is willing to ally with really dangerous enemies of China and Goryeo like the Angeloi and UVR, and so on.

Makes me think about what OTL's Japanese Ultranationalist like Sadao Araki, Fumimaro Konoe and Hideki Tojo are doing in TTL and if they would be viewed as freedom fighters or if they would collaborate with China?

I also am curious about TTL's League of Blood Incident, May 15 incident and February 26 incident are like?

The first independence movements start as Japanese reformers call for representation in Goryeo's democratic government, only to be rejected.

Sounds similar to how in OTL Japan wanted an equal race clause in the Treaty of Versailles but the West rejected it.

While this means that many of Zhu Di's overseas expansion campaigns wouldn't happen, like Zheng He's treasure fleet voyages, this also means that the military aristocracy that formed around Zhu Di and the other sons of Zhu Yuanzhang/the Hongwu Emperor would be held in check by the civil service bureaucracy.

So how would you retcon something like Zheng He's treasure fleet voyages to Socotra?

It would fuel the growth of Chinese and Vietnamese companies, building on Tang and Song economic models. There were joint-stock companies in the Tang-Song era, and I could see further capitalist developments emerging under the Ming and Tran with the empowering of its civilian government and the emergence of a lucrative manufacturing industry paid for by Penglai, Fusang, and Tawantinsuyu gold and silver. Many of these companies grow rich off manufacturing weapons for the Five Years' War and later the unification wars. In a united China, they further take advantage of the removal of borders to expand across the Pacific in search of more resources to exploit, leading to their actions in Fusang.

So these companies are like OTL's Zaibatsu and Chaebol then?

 

[CaptainAlvious]

I could have him establish "Zhongdu" as a summer residence for the imperial court, though his successors would keep the main capital in Nanjing/Yingtian. I couldn't find evidence on the plans being stopped by a famine, though there was a famine in the region before construction began.

I was going off Wikipedia, which also said Zhu Biao died scouting out another potential capital, so I guess Zhongdu being established would butterfly that and the folllowing succession crisis away, through that might help the Yuan remnant survive better.

Also since Bejing only became the capital because of Zhu Di, does that mean the Forbidden City would not exist here?

So how would you retcon something like Zheng He's treasure fleet voyages to Socotra?

Zhu Yuanzhang and his successors are looking for the heirs of the Song Emperor that escape the Battle of Yamen, so I don't think this is being retconned.

Huh, it seems like a lot of Sinosphere nations had military dictatorships, now that I've looked at it this way.

I take it the military dictatorship of the 20th century would take more inspiration from these historical military led aristocracies or the contemporary fascist dictatorships of that era than the OTL Guomindang.

BTW, what would the ramifications of Operation Dragonslayer be aside from “Wang Jingwei” using it to establish his military dictatorship in China?

 

[zenphoenix]

So in the recon the Manchu's in Siberia are just Yuan refugees?

Technically yes, but much less organized. The Yuan survive a bit longer, but the Ming do inevitably take Khanbaliq (Beijing), then Shangdu, and then Karakorum. The Yuan court retreats to each capital with every loss, until they are surrounded in Karakorum. Most of the Borjigins there are either massacred or forced to swear fealty to the Ming emperor and then granted a fief in some insignificant location far from power. The Borjigins of Manchuria and in the Yuan shogunate attempt to claim the title of emperor, but the former are soon overrun by Goryeo and the latter are overthrown by Nurhaci and his Jin restoration (Later Jin). Siberia, which was a patchwork of tuntian military settlements and new lands for Mongol and Jurchen tribes to rule over up until now, now becomes a vast land that any surviving independent Borjigins retreat to, but they are like the OTL Northern Yuan in that they’re basically khans with imperial claims but lacking the military organization and political institutions. Many of Nurhaci’s descendants are also expelled to Siberia after the Shiba conquest of the Later Jin, adding more players to the already chaotic situation. So the “Manchu” blob in Siberia is more of a general area where Mongol and Jurchen clans are locked in a never ending battle for supremacy in a region that gets ever colder because of the Little Ice Age, all while the Ming Dynasty, Goryeo, and Fusang gradually close in.

I think I remember hearing that the Kamikaze were important in establishing Japans national identity to the point that many believed that it was proof from the gods that Japan could not be conquered. Since the Kamikaze do not happen as they did in OTL how different would Japanese society be by TTL's 2000's?

Yes, the kamikaze typhoons were seen as proof that Japan was divinely protected, which was seized upon by the Japanese military regime during World War II (though the “kamikaze” suicide aircraft used in the war were only called that informally). But to my knowledge, the kamikaze weren’t too relevant to pre-Meiji Japanese culture outside of some temples attributing them to one god or another.

I instead had typhoons first destroy a Japanese fleet coming to relieve the defenders at Hakata Bay, then destroy a Mongol one after an engagement with a Korean fleet. To the Japanese, this would be a massive psychological blow, seeing their biggest army and last hope to deny the Mongols a foothold destroyed as if by the gods. They’d start pointing fingers at who exactly lost divine favor, causing vicious infighting within the Kamakura court and the rise of new Buddhist sects and militant peasant movements that further erode at Kamakura’s authority. Meanwhile, the Koreans see the typhoon that destroyed the Mongol fleet as proof that they were divinely favored, if not divinely chosen to save Japan. Some of that mentality also filters over to the Japanese themselves.

Since northern China is more of a frontier region in TTL would Beijing have grown to the importance that it is in OTL?

It would have still been a major capital under the Yuan as Khanbaliq, with Shangdu relatively nearby. After the Ming conquest, Beiping remains a strategic city due to its proximity to the mountain passes into Manchuria and coastal trade cities like Zhigu (Tianjin; it was founded in 1404 and named by the Yongle Emperor after seizing the throne, so I had to dig deep for this name, and I still need to find the hanzi). While political institutions remained in Yingtian, Beiping served as a heavily fortified military base from which the conquests of Mongolia, Manchuria, and Siberia were organized. I suppose it could have a rivalry with Yingtian, as army officers and civil service bureaucrats favoring land expansion would naturally find likeminded colleagues in Beiping, while naval officers and bureaucrats favoring naval expansion would gather in Yingtian.

I think that sounds like a good idea and it is a way to still pay homage to the games you built your world on.

Also I can make “comet sighted” memes like I used to.

Well I heard a saying that makes sense for the most part and I think that it would mean the same here. "there are three sides to every story. 1 Is one side, 2 is the other sides, and 3 is the truth.".

Only in this situation, the two sides were written long after the fact, so we straight up don’t know what people at the time were thinking. A common occurrence throughout history.

I wonder if you could still go with the original idea of him not going to the fortune teller not telling him to unite Norway since sometimes I feel like a common trope of alternate history is having one person die and another one living so I think that if you do that you could avoid that trope?

I initially thought of keeping that, but I decided it would be easier to kill him since he was responsible for converting both Saint Olaf and Harald Hardrada’s family during his reign, so if he was deposed earlier that wouldn’t happen.

With unions fighting against exploitative corporations I wonder if you could look into the Coal Wars of OTL's 1890 – 1930 or more specifically the Battle of Blair Mountain these wars could help explain how Fusang went from one of the most pro-Democracy places to one of the most coderivative. Kind of like OTL's West Virginia?

Yep, I did think a bit about that. Clashes between the companies and the unions dominate the Fusang frontier throughout the late 19th century until World War II, embedding themselves into the public consciousness the same way older eras had tales of wandering ronin and youxia. Unfortunately, the story isn't a happy one. Eventually, the Chinese military regime cracks down hard on the unions, and they never recover. The companies don't survive much longer due to deindustrialization, decolonization, and changes in economic policy, leaving behind only scars in the landscape and empty impoverished shells where thriving communities once were. Many of those impoverished descendants of miners, no longer enjoying the union protections of their fathers, would then be very receptive to right-wing populist messages promising a national renewal if they would only destroy a certain culture or ethnicity blamed for everything wrong with them.

Makes me think about what OTL's Japanese Ultranationalist like Sadao Araki, Fumimaro Konoe and Hideki Tojo are doing in TTL and if they would be viewed as freedom fighters or if they would collaborate with China?

I haven't decided on it yet, but I'll come up with original Chinese equivalents for them, as well as individuals based on KR German generals. They could also be Korean. Fumimaro Konoe already has a counterpart in TESB's Fujiwara no Fumimaro, as the Konoe clan was one of the leading cadet branches of the Fujiwara in the post-Meiji era. So I guess I'll have a Fujiwara Fumimaro and his son Takeru helping out the imperial court's independence faction.

I also am curious about TTL's League of Blood Incident, May 15 incident and February 26 incident are like?

I'll do more research when DE gets back to that era.

Sounds similar to how in OTL Japan wanted an equal race clause in the Treaty of Versailles but the West rejected it.

Also how many independence movements initially started out: wanting representation with their colonizer, only to be denied it and left with no choice but to demand more.

So how would you retcon something like Zheng He's treasure fleet voyages to Socotra?

It still happens, but under either the Jianwen Emperor or his father. Shouldn't need too many edits.

So these companies are like OTL's Zaibatsu and Chaebol then?

Yes. TESB's Ming Dynasty has the caifa, which is just "zaibatsu" but pronounced in Mandarin. I'm probably going to include that in DE, so it'll be a mix of Imperial Japan and the Kaiserreich Germany lore you wrote.

I was going off Wikipedia, which also said Zhu Biao died scouting out another potential capital, so I guess Zhongdu being established would butterfly that and the folllowing succession crisis away, through that might help the Yuan remnant survive better.

He died of illness while being sent to Chang’an to assess if it could be made the capital again. Which actually lines up really well with his survival if his father committed to building Zhongdu. This happens after the dust settles between the Yuan and Ming.

The Yuan remnant survives in northern China due to both winning certain battles that in OTL resulted in the Ming securing a path to Khabaliq, then being reinforced by the Timurids and other remnants of the Mongol Empire (the other khanates don’t break with the Yuan as much as they did in OTL, which means they come to the Yuan’s aid, while the Timurids help out due to their former ties to the Chagatai and narrative of being “son-in-law” to the Borjigins). A Chanyuan-style peace treaty is signed to set a provisional border in north China which spares Khanbaliq, as the Ming cannot defeat the Yuan with all of its support while the Yuan can’t make progress against the Ming-Tran alliance.

Also since Bejing only became the capital because of Zhu Di, does that mean the Forbidden City would not exist here?

I know that the decision was still taken in the game, but I decided at the time that it would refer to the Nanjing palace, not knowing (or not caring) that there was an existing palace. But in light of the recent talk of Zhongdu, I could put it there as the summer palace of the emperor.

Zhu Yuanzhang and his successors are looking for the heirs of the Song Emperor that escape the Battle of Yamen, so I don't think this is being retconned.

In light of the recent lore additions, he could also be looking for the other Song emperor and his heirs who were abducted from Kaifeng in the Jingkang Incident, though I suppose that’s still looking for a Song heir.

I take it the military dictatorship of the 20th century would take more inspiration from these historical military led aristocracies or the contemporary fascist dictatorships of that era than the OTL Guomindang.

Agreed. It’s something I’ll definitely draw on in DE when I get there.

BTW, what would the ramifications of Operation Dragonslayer be aside from “Wang Jingwei” using it to establish his military dictatorship in China?

Not sure about the social ramifications, but militarily it leads to a purge of many admirals who were held responsible for letting the Angeloi break deep into the Pacific, an almost entirely Sinosphere lake, and attack the capital and other major cities—after the war there is a massive naval buildup to ensure this never happens again. In Goryeo, it leads to the rise of a new military dictatorship, while in Japan it fuels the independence movement as primary resistance to the Angeloi comes from Japanese civilians instead of the regional military commissions.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

I know that the decision was still taken in the game, but I decided at the time that it would refer to the Nanjing palace, not knowing (or not caring) that there was an existing palace. But in light of the recent talk of Zhongdu, I could put it there as the summer palace of the emperor.

So would the summer palace burned down by Tsar Vladimir be the one in Zhongdu instead of the old one in Beijing in the old lore, since from what I can tell the latter was built during the Qing era in OTL?

Not sure about the social ramifications, but militarily it leads to a purge of many admirals who were held responsible for letting the Angeloi break deep into the Pacific, an almost entirely Sinosphere lake, and attack the capital and other major cities—after the war there is a massive naval buildup to ensure this never happens again. In Goryeo, it leads to the rise of a new military dictatorship, while in Japan it fuels the independence movement as primary resistance to the Angeloi comes from Japanese civilians instead of the regional military commissions.

What about the invasion of Penglai here? On hand, I could see it adding fuel to the fire of the Penglairen independence movement, on the other, I could see the Chinese cracking down further on Dakshavi, aborigines, and other minorities.

And finally, to top it all off, an Angeloi invasion force landed in southwestern Penglai, in the former Indian colony of Daksina Jamina. The Angeloi goals were to push along the coast and seize the ports in the west before marching east and driving out the Chinese from the entire continent. But the unforeseen heavy resistance of both Indian colonists and Chinese settlers kept the Angeloi from advancing that far. The Angeloi troops were pushed back into the sea after three days.

 

[zenphoenix]

So would the summer palace burned down by Tsar Vladimir be the one in Zhongdu instead of the old one in Beijing in the old lore, since from what I can tell the latter was built during the Qing era in OTL?

Yeah, I’ll retcon it to that.

What about the invasion of Penglai here? On hand, I could see it adding fuel to the fire of the Penglairen independence movement, on the other, I could see the Chinese cracking down further on Dakshavi, aborigines, and other minorities.

It could do both, which then feed into each other after the war ends.

 

[GhostRider124]

I haven't decided on it yet, but I'll come up with original Chinese equivalents for them, as well as individuals based on KR German generals. They could also be Korean. Fumimaro Konoe already has a counterpart in TESB's Fujiwara no Fumimaro, as the Konoe clan was one of the leading cadet branches of the Fujiwara in the post-Meiji era. So I guess I'll have a Fujiwara Fumimaro and his son Takeru helping out the imperial court's independence faction.

In Götterdämmerung Chapter 372: Total War the Angeloi set up puppet states in with Taiwan becoming a Republic of China, Qiandao the Republic of Qiandao and Sulawesi Republic. I was thinking about possible inspiration you could use with those three. So far I was thinking that the ROC be based off of OTL's Republic of Formosa and Wang Jingwei's Republic China while Qiandao could be based off of the Second Philippine Republic?

I am unsure about what to do with Sulawesi. Mabey inspire TTl's Indonesians to fight for their independence in the Cold War?

Also what would be TTL's Indonesian National Revolution?

In the 20th century, you get figures like “Hirohito” calling for independence but along peaceful lines, a “Jinnah” who wants a separate state for Christians, a “Bose” figure who is willing to ally with really dangerous enemies of China and Goryeo like the Angeloi and UVR, and so on.

Not sure about the social ramifications, but militarily it leads to a purge of many admirals who were held responsible for letting the Angeloi break deep into the Pacific, an almost entirely Sinosphere lake, and attack the capital and other major cities—after the war there is a massive naval buildup to ensure this never happens again. In Goryeo, it leads to the rise of a new military dictatorship, while in Japan it fuels the independence movement as primary resistance to the Angeloi comes from Japanese civilians instead of the regional military commissions.

As for the Angeloi invasion of Japan maybe you could have TTL's Tojo be similar to OTL's "Bose" in that he was a collaborator with the Angeloi to try and force independence instead of the more gradual process that "Hirohito" advocated only to fail like Bose did in OTL?

I know that the decision was still taken in the game, but I decided at the time that it would refer to the Nanjing palace, not knowing (or not caring) that there was an existing palace. But in light of the recent talk of Zhongdu, I could put it there as the summer palace of the emperor.

So would the summer palace burned down by Tsar Vladimir be the one in Zhongdu instead of the old one in Beijing in the old lore, since from what I can tell the latter was built during the Qing era in OTL?

Yeah, I’ll retcon it to that.

One possible idea if you decide to keep the in game decision in Nanjing could be that it was a series of extensions to the existing palace instead of a completely new one?

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Building on this discussion, how would the eugenics movement develop in TTL?

 

[GhostRider124]

Building on this discussion, how would the eugenics movement develop in TTL?

I remember reading on the Code Geass Reddit and seeing a thread on why Britannia despite being an Empire was not as racist against non whites since there are characters like Villetta Nu as a member of the Purist Faction and Dorothea Ernst being the Knight of Four. One commenter suggested that Britannian racism was similar to what it was in antiquity in that those born within the Empire were considered citizens and those that were born outside it like their conquered peoples were discriminated against regardless of race. This seems to be the case in TTL since once Jurusalem forms all you needed to be was straight, German and Christian and you were a citizen race did not appear to have been a factor?