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Why were Hydroponics Farms buildings changed to increase farmer output rather than add farmer jobs? I thought the point of the building was to give you a way to feed your pops even when you didn't get enough farming districts on your planets.
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Looks like Hydroponics Farms and Food Processing Facilities were swapped in purpose? A bit of an odd choice
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The DLC can't do anything until 4 is ready, so don't be impatient.
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I just hope they get this done in time or we' ll be playing the DLC inside a beta branch.
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We'll probably get a DLC announcement next week given that the devs have been about as subtle as a machine gun that fires sledgehammers with their hints.
Since the next DLC will probably launch alongside 4.0, we probably won't get a specific release date until they have a better idea as to when 4.0 drops, but they can still talk about what's in it and post a trailer.
(on paper there will be a release date of something like "On or before July 31st" for legal reasons, but the trailer will likely just say something like "Summer 2025".
Also on the subject of hydroponics from a few posts up, I feel like there might be a place for a Hydroponics Zone that fits in the City District. While proper Agricultural Zones will be the main source of food for most empires, it would help Void Dwellers and let you make more self-sufficient Ecumenopolis.
Since the next DLC will probably launch alongside 4.0, we probably won't get a specific release date until they have a better idea as to when 4.0 drops, but they can still talk about what's in it and post a trailer.
(on paper there will be a release date of something like "On or before July 31st" for legal reasons, but the trailer will likely just say something like "Summer 2025".
Also on the subject of hydroponics from a few posts up, I feel like there might be a place for a Hydroponics Zone that fits in the City District. While proper Agricultural Zones will be the main source of food for most empires, it would help Void Dwellers and let you make more self-sufficient Ecumenopolis.
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Just played 3.99.3 for an hour on speed 2:
It’s better now, as jobs from buildings no longer scale directly with districts and are instead tied to zones, which makes things more manageable.
It’s hard to pinpoint now whether the system overall is still, for lack of a better word, “bad,” or if the bugs are now shaping my impressions.
I’m having trouble managing my jobs, as it seems people refuse to work even when jobs are available. My economy isn’t collapsing anymore if I build another City district, which is fine. I would assume this is a bug and not working as intended.
In addition, playing as the recommended UNE, I can’t resettle my pops, so my colonies aren’t growing and people aren’t leaving my capital even when unemployed.
In general, I can see this working if we manage to iron out the newly introduced bugs and awkwardness with zone/building-based job scaling.
I embrace the shift from reducing district job scaling and limiting it to zones, and moving some jobs back to buildings is great.
What I also noticed is that most zones don’t have enough buildings available, so they just sit there empty, which currently feels sad.
I’m not entirely convinced this system should be scrapped and that we should return to just building more buildings—but I still tend to recommend it, just to avoid wasting more time on something that still has a long way to go before it’s working and fun. And i truely don't see the issue(or any) with the old system to be that immense to warrent the effort.
It’s better now, as jobs from buildings no longer scale directly with districts and are instead tied to zones, which makes things more manageable.
It’s hard to pinpoint now whether the system overall is still, for lack of a better word, “bad,” or if the bugs are now shaping my impressions.
I’m having trouble managing my jobs, as it seems people refuse to work even when jobs are available. My economy isn’t collapsing anymore if I build another City district, which is fine. I would assume this is a bug and not working as intended.
In addition, playing as the recommended UNE, I can’t resettle my pops, so my colonies aren’t growing and people aren’t leaving my capital even when unemployed.
In general, I can see this working if we manage to iron out the newly introduced bugs and awkwardness with zone/building-based job scaling.
I embrace the shift from reducing district job scaling and limiting it to zones, and moving some jobs back to buildings is great.
What I also noticed is that most zones don’t have enough buildings available, so they just sit there empty, which currently feels sad.
I’m not entirely convinced this system should be scrapped and that we should return to just building more buildings—but I still tend to recommend it, just to avoid wasting more time on something that still has a long way to go before it’s working and fun. And i truely don't see the issue(or any) with the old system to be that immense to warrent the effort.
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I like that you're improving them each patch, but what problem are you trying to solve with zones?
It seems like every good effect of zones can be replicated by just giving buildings a type, adding a maximum per type (IE max 3 mining buildings), and adding district types so jobs can all scale off districts while modified by buildings.
The negative effects include being entire extra steps with seemingly no purpose, being confusing and arbitrary, and making it impossible to fine-tune your economy when you need more of X but not more of Y from a planet producing both. This patch simultaneously incentivizes you to specialize planets less with the new trade system and makes it impossible to fully generalize, while extremely difficult to generalize at all without having wild fluctuations in your economy whenever you are forced to add jobs you don't want filled to get the ones you do want.
If there is a problem they solve that I don't see, great, carry on and we can give feedback with that in mind as to whether it solves the problem, while hopefully pruning out the above issues.
If there is not, I suggest cutting your losses and just removing zones. The building changes can be implemented nearly exactly the same without them, and the pop/job changes can be implemented entirely without them. Just add a per-type building limit and district types for each job you were having scale out of zones. If it is not solving a problem that necessitates their existence, it's not worth trying to implement just for the sake of it when it introduces so many huge problems.
It seems like every good effect of zones can be replicated by just giving buildings a type, adding a maximum per type (IE max 3 mining buildings), and adding district types so jobs can all scale off districts while modified by buildings.
The negative effects include being entire extra steps with seemingly no purpose, being confusing and arbitrary, and making it impossible to fine-tune your economy when you need more of X but not more of Y from a planet producing both. This patch simultaneously incentivizes you to specialize planets less with the new trade system and makes it impossible to fully generalize, while extremely difficult to generalize at all without having wild fluctuations in your economy whenever you are forced to add jobs you don't want filled to get the ones you do want.
If there is a problem they solve that I don't see, great, carry on and we can give feedback with that in mind as to whether it solves the problem, while hopefully pruning out the above issues.
If there is not, I suggest cutting your losses and just removing zones. The building changes can be implemented nearly exactly the same without them, and the pop/job changes can be implemented entirely without them. Just add a per-type building limit and district types for each job you were having scale out of zones. If it is not solving a problem that necessitates their existence, it's not worth trying to implement just for the sake of it when it introduces so many huge problems.
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The Urban zone produces exclusively Clerk Jobs per district, Unlike the previous version that gave you laborers. This is worse because now you cannot rely on your inital City district anymore, you need to build a Factory or Industrial district right away.
On another note:
Right now I am getting more unemployed worker-strata pops every single time I build a district.
I would have no problem with that, seems like the overall better solution.
On another note:
Right now I am getting more unemployed worker-strata pops every single time I build a district.
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I've noticed a couple oddities, and I don't know if they are 'as intended' or something else.
First I had the 'Scum and villainy' event despite having no crime. Which is kind of weird, not going to lie. It could because of early unemployment. But given how hard it is to eliminate unemployment these days, this seems like a problem. You will notice I forgot to take the screen shot with the pop-up, but I do have the relieving modifier.
Given this is a year into the game, it feels really weird to deal with sense I've barely had time to solve the unemployment. Plus, the way pop growth works, I'll never actually solve it. I suspect the event hasn't been undated yet, but I'd like to see this changed to better reflect the new numbers.
With unemployment--and assuming pop-demotion/growth is working as intended--I really need this to stop being stomped into my eyes. So my suggestion is to pool all unemployment across worker, specialist, and elite strata into one number and then only put the 'fix unemployment' notification before the player if the number is over 1k. Or perhaps 15% of filled jobs. or something along those lines. right now, it's rather frustrating to know I'll never be able to clear those unemployment notifications from the outliner/planet.
Of course, tool tips can give you a breakdown of the different types of unemployment as can the economy screen. But it's not really needed on the Surface screen.
next: A year in I remembered to change my focus to development--because that is generally my focus over and above exploration--and I noticed my focus list.
The only ones that can be completed are survey a system and colonize a planet. That's, problematic for new players. Especially if the current unity production rates are intended. 100 unity is a lot, and really shouldn't be squandered on rerolling.
Hire a commander is doable technically, but dangerous with the rate of unity production and so should be delayed at least a few years from game start. Declare a rival can't be done until you meet someone. And the same for diplomacy ones.
The next one is just a bug, but kind of weird, nevertheless. I've got 101/100 workforce in titian hunter jobs. this persisted after closing some jobs and opening them again. which is kind of weird. I'm just basic humans with a better portrait, so it's not like I'm getting bonus workforce ether. plus, there is 101 pops in the jobs according to the interface, so I've got nothing.
I also think--but can't quite work out the numbers--that there is a cap of some kind on the amount of migration per month. I don't know if it's per pop group, per destination/origine pair. or something else. but it's clearly limited in some fashion. this prevents everything moving instantly. I do think this limit is probably too small, as I can't track it very well, except that low pop planets are clearly filling faster than their pop growth would allow. To a point which slows down again.
The main problem I see with this idea is that Zones give you a way to both make these categories, and easily communicate this to players who don't read tooltips while your idea doesn't. Also, your suggestion doesn't allow the same building in multiple zones--automation being the example here--to the same level of clarity nor at the same level of ease to program.
I'm not sure the current implementation of Zones is good, but I do like the idea of more restricted buildings--and no building spam--so can't claim it's the problem for right now.
First I had the 'Scum and villainy' event despite having no crime. Which is kind of weird, not going to lie. It could because of early unemployment. But given how hard it is to eliminate unemployment these days, this seems like a problem. You will notice I forgot to take the screen shot with the pop-up, but I do have the relieving modifier.
Given this is a year into the game, it feels really weird to deal with sense I've barely had time to solve the unemployment. Plus, the way pop growth works, I'll never actually solve it. I suspect the event hasn't been undated yet, but I'd like to see this changed to better reflect the new numbers.
With unemployment--and assuming pop-demotion/growth is working as intended--I really need this to stop being stomped into my eyes. So my suggestion is to pool all unemployment across worker, specialist, and elite strata into one number and then only put the 'fix unemployment' notification before the player if the number is over 1k. Or perhaps 15% of filled jobs. or something along those lines. right now, it's rather frustrating to know I'll never be able to clear those unemployment notifications from the outliner/planet.
Of course, tool tips can give you a breakdown of the different types of unemployment as can the economy screen. But it's not really needed on the Surface screen.
next: A year in I remembered to change my focus to development--because that is generally my focus over and above exploration--and I noticed my focus list.
The only ones that can be completed are survey a system and colonize a planet. That's, problematic for new players. Especially if the current unity production rates are intended. 100 unity is a lot, and really shouldn't be squandered on rerolling.
Hire a commander is doable technically, but dangerous with the rate of unity production and so should be delayed at least a few years from game start. Declare a rival can't be done until you meet someone. And the same for diplomacy ones.
The next one is just a bug, but kind of weird, nevertheless. I've got 101/100 workforce in titian hunter jobs. this persisted after closing some jobs and opening them again. which is kind of weird. I'm just basic humans with a better portrait, so it's not like I'm getting bonus workforce ether. plus, there is 101 pops in the jobs according to the interface, so I've got nothing.
I'm pretty sure only civilians auto-migrage. not Unemployed individuals. So if you are building enough to eliminate your civilians, you want get migration.
I also think--but can't quite work out the numbers--that there is a cap of some kind on the amount of migration per month. I don't know if it's per pop group, per destination/origine pair. or something else. but it's clearly limited in some fashion. this prevents everything moving instantly. I do think this limit is probably too small, as I can't track it very well, except that low pop planets are clearly filling faster than their pop growth would allow. To a point which slows down again.
From what I've heard the Devs say, I'd expect the zones to have more effects moving forward. but no idea if this is true, just a guess.
The main problem I see with this idea is that Zones give you a way to both make these categories, and easily communicate this to players who don't read tooltips while your idea doesn't. Also, your suggestion doesn't allow the same building in multiple zones--automation being the example here--to the same level of clarity nor at the same level of ease to program.
I'm not sure the current implementation of Zones is good, but I do like the idea of more restricted buildings--and no building spam--so can't claim it's the problem for right now.
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One of the primary intents of zones is to provide more long term flexibility to the development of planets. Not all of that potential will be reached in the initial implementations where we're trying to make the systems similar to the 3.x economy.
Benefits that we see include:
- More ability to customize your Urban Districts. Where before you had City Districts and Industrial Districts, with a designation toggle to switch your Industrial Districts between Forge and Factory, we no longer need to create extremely specialized zones for other resources - you can make your picks yourself. Want Research and Unity? Go for it.
- Use that to create unique Zones based on planetary features, to make different planets feel more interesting and unique. In one of next week's beta updates, the Betharian Fields planetary feature will let you shift miner output from Minerals to Energy as a prototype of this. I expect we'll have a lot more as we take advantage of the system more in 4.1/4.2.
- Create a clearer distinction between Districts and Buildings. (Though admittedly we've backed off on this a bit.) Districts provide jobs, Zones change which jobs, Buildings modify jobs.
Amenities shouldn't be a Zone though. The beta's shown that clearly enough already - they need to be provided in a different manner
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Interesting. Based on what you've said, I'm assuming this is a new mining 'district' zone? Sounds both interesting, and like a good way to improve things in the long run.
Anything you'd like to share on the idea of keeping each 'advanced resource' tied to a different 'basic resource'? I really like the implication that energy becomes motes and so own. It also makes the Machine/lithoid empires more interesting when they start needing gas, which is a bonus. Especially as you could balance it so that bio-burners and gas production eliminate all food production on the planet. For those empires that don't need food at all. or anymore.
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I like a lot of that, but I don't understand why zones are necessary for any of it.
Shifting miners to produce energy from betharian fields is really cool. Stuff like that makes far more unique planets.
But why does it require zones to exist? Why can't the current betharian building just swap or modify the jobs?
And, again, the current model has problems where if I want more of X job, and my district providing X job also provides jobs Y and Z, I do not have the ability to only get more of the job I want.
The pop granularity changes allow more output finetuning. The trade changes incentivize more output finetuning. The addition of zones takes an axe to output finetuning.
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The current state of habitat jobs feels really bad. On normal Void Dweller/Forged empires, we're only getting 135 (90 base + 50%) jobs per district, compared to the 300 one would expect coming from 3.14. Research districts are likewise at 1/3 output given the researcher split.
All in all, while I understand wanting habitat districts have fewer jobs per district (this was a stated goal on the subreddit), I feel like the +50% bonus for void dwellers should AT LEAST bring districts to parity. Giving them 150 base jobs, 225 for dwellers, would already be an improvement (If still a heavy nerf compared to 3.14).
All of this is in light of district upkeep going from .25 alloys/district to .5 alloys per district. I just don't see how Void Dwellers are in any way viable with the current beta patch. With the changes to zones, the research district feels a little weak and out off place.
One more note: Please revisit the Guaranteed-Research-System that replaces one of VD's guaranteed habitable planets, as it having 1/1/1/4 research deposit spread only provides five research districts compared to the up to twelve (a full habitat, if desired) that could be expected.
All in all, while I understand wanting habitat districts have fewer jobs per district (this was a stated goal on the subreddit), I feel like the +50% bonus for void dwellers should AT LEAST bring districts to parity. Giving them 150 base jobs, 225 for dwellers, would already be an improvement (If still a heavy nerf compared to 3.14).
All of this is in light of district upkeep going from .25 alloys/district to .5 alloys per district. I just don't see how Void Dwellers are in any way viable with the current beta patch. With the changes to zones, the research district feels a little weak and out off place.
One more note: Please revisit the Guaranteed-Research-System that replaces one of VD's guaranteed habitable planets, as it having 1/1/1/4 research deposit spread only provides five research districts compared to the up to twelve (a full habitat, if desired) that could be expected.
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just in case:
This Pre-FTL isn't losing pops, but it appears to have a bugged UI--Fair enough they've been low on the priority--and an oddly locked food districts. Also, I can't see what age they are in--based on buildings I'm guessing stone age--which is kind of important for certain styles/empires. Very important if I was a necro empire.
Feeling on the base empire builds, it's kind of odd that even with the demotion time change I'm almost certainty going to choose harmony as a guaranteed second tradition every time. As it is, the communication of unemployment combined with the inability to actually get rid of unemployment means I have to get read of said unemployment.
I don't know how the team feels about the current unemployment situation. And I'm not even opposed to having some level of guaranteed unemployment. but the way it currently works is quite aggravating right now.
This Pre-FTL isn't losing pops, but it appears to have a bugged UI--Fair enough they've been low on the priority--and an oddly locked food districts. Also, I can't see what age they are in--based on buildings I'm guessing stone age--which is kind of important for certain styles/empires. Very important if I was a necro empire.
Feeling on the base empire builds, it's kind of odd that even with the demotion time change I'm almost certainty going to choose harmony as a guaranteed second tradition every time. As it is, the communication of unemployment combined with the inability to actually get rid of unemployment means I have to get read of said unemployment.
I don't know how the team feels about the current unemployment situation. And I'm not even opposed to having some level of guaranteed unemployment. but the way it currently works is quite aggravating right now.
Some additional changes in the 3.99.3 open beta I've found browsing through the script files:
- Zones now give 180 jobs. If it gives two different jobs you get 90 of each, and if it gives three (like research zones) you get 60 of each.
- Betharian Fields planetary feature now gives +4 max generator districts
- Sentry Array megastructure now gives -5% ship hyperjump charge time per tier, and +1 decryption on even tiers
- Mega Art Installation megastructure now gives -5% planetary ascension cost per tier
- Interstellar Assembly megastructure now gives -5% empire size at tiers 1-2 & -10% at tiers 3-4
- Pop demotion time has been reduced by 75%
- Pop automodding rates look like they've been scaled up to handle new pop numbers (all auto mod monthly modifiers x100)
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i was about to post about this for some reason some people just refuse to work jobs i even got the event for increased CGs on unemployed pops because they just would not work
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Specialist unemployment won't demote even with harmony tradition kinship. Unemployment pop also have fragmented pop switch jobs or something endlessly.
Somehow a lots of fragmented pops. Even basic machine pops probably should not in any kinds of faction.
Early building swap feels like playing payback or broken shackle origin. Everyone need to take time and minerals to properly get into FTL era.
Somehow a lots of fragmented pops. Even basic machine pops probably should not in any kinds of faction.
Early building swap feels like playing payback or broken shackle origin. Everyone need to take time and minerals to properly get into FTL era.
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interesting. I'm not currently seeing this bug at all. which suggests there might be more to it than just 'pops aren't working.' my capital planet has every job filled and my colonies have open jobs and no unemployment.