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Red Death

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Apr 19, 2015
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Market prices have been changed from "energy" to "trade". But if the intention is for trade to be the new currency, then it must take over all the other cases of energy being used as currecy:
  • Caravansary Caravan Coalition
  • Branch office income
  • Mercenary costs
  • Countless events and anomalies involving finding "treasure" or "wealth".
  • And many more!
I would not say this is necessarily the highest priority. But if the devs are dedicated to this change, all those cases will have to be changed eventually.
 
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That is not the intention.

Energy Credits are still used as general currency. Stockpiled trade is used on the galactic market when trading, or when providing supplies for logistics.
Thank you very much for clarifying the plans! I had been assuming otherwise since trade was described as the new currency.

Still I don't think that makes sense at all thematically. Either energy credits are the currency, or trade is. Does the galactic market provide you goods for free as long as you can provide the logistical support to move them to your empire? Why does trade between empires not make money, but instead just makes it easier to provide logistics?

This just sounds like "We wouldn't do it this way if we were designing this from the ground up, but now that we're here it's too much work to change".
 
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That is not the intention.

Energy Credits are still used as general currency. Stockpiled trade is used on the galactic market when trading, or when providing supplies for logistics.

Energy Credits are still used as general currency. (but not) --Stockpiled trade is used ... "when trading" - This is confusing. Please reconsider! — This just adds two unnecessary clicks to convert excess Trade into Energy Credits via the market, which is annoying busywork. Replace all Trade costs(lol) with Trade according to neutral market value, or make all prices dynamicly convert based on the current market value.
 
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Energy is currency, except when you buy things.

Wait, isn't "ability to buy things" the specific use for currency?

What currency-like uses does Energy have in the current beta?
 
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Trade should not be the market resource in the first place.

I know people haven't come around to that realization yet, but I know you'll see the light once the shiny new coat has come off and the mechanical and thematic issues stare you in the face whenever you interact with the mechanics.
 
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Yeah seems clunky and inelegant. Like I'm trying to head-canon it that "trade" represents the value of goods we don't currently have being exchanged between worlds and empires, but then that would also be represented as energy credits for the sale and purchase if that is still the actual currency.

Also IIRC "energy" is going to have the same resource cap as other resources which makes it being still used as hard currency in game more harder due to smaller possible stockpiles to have to spend.
 
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That is not the intention.

Energy Credits are still used as general currency. Stockpiled trade is used on the galactic market when trading, or when providing supplies for logistics.

You could delete energy as a whole to no detriment to the new design. When it served as a currency it was important to boost it up but eventually you always ended up with far too much of it. The new design makes it nigh worthless outside a few odd uses; like why is it used for blockers? There is really no need to have it around to just pay some minor form of maintenance on buildings, districts, and such, as it truly adds no value. It can just all be assumed under the covers.

Plus if you remove energy and the districts supporting it you benefit from more open space on your otherwise new abysmal colony UI and we get to remove some techs from the trees that are otherwise bloated.
 
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For consistency's sake, trade should be the new general currency. Trade credits are used to buy and sell things, ie trade. Planetary deficits and ship logistics have trade costs, the currency and material costs of shipping goods. Trade can be stockpiled and spent on the market, like currency. I can sorta get blockers still using energy to clear, as clearing a planet sized blocker would literally use a lot of energy. But if trade is to have a significant use, and to make sense thematically, the game should go full on in making it the general currency.
 
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I always liked Energy, Organic Matter and In-organic Matter being the basic resources (E=mc2 and all) and how you put them together in different processes to create the advanced/abstract resources. Especially how those processes were different depending on your empire.

Therefore, it has always been a huge immersion breaker that Energy was also a unit of “credit” considered more “transferable” than the other basics or even advanced/abstracts, even if Energy is presumably easier to “move” one would still assume that using that energy to transfer something of higher value than just the Energy would be many times more efficient i.e. sending a unit of Research embedded in the energy instead of just the Energy.

I think that this is what Trade represents as an abstract resource and that is why it makes sense for both logistics and the market without being the "new currency", instead what it does is doing away with Energy being a currency in some of the most immersion breaking situations.
 
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Yeah I have to say this change feels like something that needs to be all or nothing. If you're making trade the market resource it doesn't make much sense to have energy stay as a currency but only sometimes.

Branch offices always gave energy but I assumed that was because it couldn't give trade because it wasn't a resource. It is now.

Robots not being able to go full tilt on trade and literally eat wealth makes sense and this change makes that happen, it feels weird not to follow through.
 
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Trade should not be the market resource in the first place.

I know people haven't come around to that realization yet, but I know you'll see the light once the shiny new coat has come off and the mechanical and thematic issues stare you in the face whenever you interact with the mechanics.

Energy credits are probably the single biggest thematic misstep in Stellaris right now. What, do we make major trade deals by lugging giant capacitors through space? Does the galaxy experience inflation whenever someone builds a Dyson sphere? Do banks have vaults full of batteries? How do you power an entire planet full of synths with sheer capitalism alone?
 
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Energy credits are probably the single biggest thematic misstep in Stellaris right now. What, do we make major trade deals by lugging giant capacitors through space? Does the galaxy experience inflation whenever someone builds a Dyson sphere? Do banks have vaults full of batteries? How do you power an entire planet full of synths with sheer capitalism alone?
I think originally energy credits were basically an energy backed currency, in the same sense that you could theoretically walk into a bank and exchange bits of paper for gold with gold backed currencies.

The half measure kinda breaks that. And it always had some weirdness to it anyway.
 
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I think originally energy credits were basically an energy backed currency, in the same sense that you could theoretically walk into a bank and exchange bits of paper for gold with gold backed currencies.

The half measure kinda breaks that. And it always had some weirdness to it anyway.
Yeah, this is how I always viewed energy credits, which is very thematic for a sci-fi game. When people talk about the Kardashev Scale, they are talking about a civilization's capacity to harness and use energy, since that, in theory, should reflect that civilization's technological advancement. So having currency being backed by energy is a perfect substitute for gold in a sci-fi setting, in my opinion.

Trade, on the other hand, is completely abstract.
 
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Energy Credits used to be energy and also currency. It's in the name. Now it's been relegated to only being used to power robots/factories and little else.
Trade is the new currency. Currency is the medium of exchange used when buying and selling.
But Trade isn't just a type of currency, Trade is ALL types of currency - fiat money, commodity money, representative money... barter, honour, time, psychic power, etc.

All the places where the game thinks Energy Credits still exist in their old form, or that Trade doesn't exist feel confusing and messy.

But Trade isn't just all types of currency. It's also fuel for the Borg, shipping volume for trade fleets, the flow-rate of capillary towers pumping mass offworld for Zerg/Tyranid and even just a vague debt that needs to be repaid for a warrior culture. It's also the only representation of the private economy, untapped resources and increasingly inefficient mineral deposits not normally worth harvesting but possible if you don't mind the inefficiency. It also seems to be like the Ork Waaagh! So now my Ork-like Civilians can make shipping containers fly if enough of them believe that red makes things go faster, so who needs alloys, engines or fuel to supply planets?

It's hard to try to squish so many different meanings into a single number and have it make any sense.

Personally I'd rather have:
Energy Credits as currency used on the market (it already works)
Trade goods added later using a modified specimens system (named goods, each with flavour text and unique benefits)
Logistics folded into naval capacity. Planetary Deficits use naval capacity, going over capacity increases upkeep costs. Freighters/ports/anchorages add naval capacity.
 
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That is not the intention.

Energy Credits are still used as general currency. Stockpiled trade is used on the galactic market when trading, or when providing supplies for logistics.

This sounds like a very strange way to implement it. So now there are two currencies with both Energy and Trade, but they're also both used for secondary aspects like Upkeep and Logistics. Why not just roll it all into one? Energy can still be an Empire wide resource, as I expect that if a species can create interstellar travel they also probably know how to make good batteries. Trade would then feel like it has it's own real identity of being wealth in all ways we imagine it to be without it being undercut by ALSO needing Energy to fulfill that identity.
 
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Time is technically also an in-game resource. :p

I agree though, if trade is used on the market, then it should also be gained through branch office income and used for purchases in general.
I seem to remember that there was a brief moment in the development of the market when the AI would try to buy and sell time. That bug stuck with me even though I can't find the post mentioning it.

Rush-buying could have been an interesting mechanic - buy and apply time like stored research. Time to me is the ultimate resource in many ways and should be universal to all empires... and I'm not just saying that because I've been re-watching "Dark" series via Semblance of Sanity reactions. (Gott ist Zeit - God is Time).