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Tinto Flavour #12 - 4th of April 2025 - Ilkhanate & Persia & Chagatai & Rise of Timur

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Fridays in which we take a look at the flavour content of the super secret Project Caesar!

Today will be an interesting day since we will be taking a look at the content we have for the Persian/Iranian region, including the Ilkhanate IO, and also at the content related to the Rise of Timur situation, which includes the flavour for the Chagatai Khanate.

Let’s start a bit differently today by first looking at the Īlkhānān, the in-game flavour name of the most commonly used Ilkhanate IO:

As usual, take all UI, 2D and 3D Art as WIP.

Ilkhanate Tooltip.png
All IOs have a quick-access button, a feature we call control groups, with their own icon (which, in the case of unique IOs, is unique, as you may see). This is the overview tooltip of the Ilkhanate.

Ilkhanate Panel.png

This is the Ilkhanate IO panel, where you can see its status, members, and possible actions.

Ilkhanate Map.png

And this is the starting situation of the Ilkhanate, with the three main contenders (Jalayirids, Hüleguids, and Gurgan) in blue, and all its members in green color.

The reign and death of Abu Sa'id Bahadur Khan, last Ilkhan of the Borjigin dynasty, led to a power vacuum in the Ilkhanate, with several contenders trying to claim the title of Ilkhan for themselves while also trying to restore the old order over the lands ruled by the Ilkhans.

We’re portraying this convoluted political situation through different mechanics.

In order to be able to restore the Ilkhanate in its full glory, you need to be one of the Claimants to the Īlkhānān, a ‘Special Status’ (a feature available for all IOs; more about this next week, in the HRE TT):
Ilkhanate Claimants1.png

Ilkhanate Claimants2.png

Ilkhanate Special Status.png

This is a good example of our lovely nested tooltips. The yellow texts are hoverable features, while the blue texts are game concepts. I took the screenshots in the same sequence, but you could go even deeper, and hover over the International Organization game concept, for a further explanation.

There is a way to become a Claimant to the Īlkhānān, through IO action Claim the Īlkhānān:
Ilkhanate Claim the Ilkhanan.png

By being Claimant to the Īlkhānān, you will get access to this special CB, which can be used against other members of the Ilkhanate, making it easier and more straight-forward to conquer them:
Ilkhanate CB Unify Ilkhanate.png

All members of the Ilkhanate also have access to this other CB, that in case of victory, allows to remove the Claimant to the Īlkhānān to the status from the objective country:
Ilkhanate CB Refuse False Claimant.png

If you end up being the only Claimant to the Īlkhānān, you will automatically become its leader (this is something that we want to change, so it becomes an action in the Main Actions panel, to make it more clear for the player). By becoming Leader of the Īlkhānān, you may be able to unify the IO into a proper country once again:
Ilkhanan Form Ilkhanan1.png

Ilkhanate Oldschool.png

There’s a broken tooltip there, which has already been reported as a bug; the second condition is that there aren’t any countries with the status Claimant to the Īlkhānān. You also need to control 75% of the locations owned by all the members of Ilkhanate IO in order to form the country; the IO will disappear the moment you form it, too.

On a different track, ff you are a Persian member of the Ilkhanate, you also have the opportunity to fight your way towards unifying the region in a completely different way, with this CB:
Ilkhanate CB Shed the Shackles.png

The Ilkhanate may cease to exist if:
  1. All its members are conquered by a country not a member of the IO.
  2. There aren’t a Leader or Claimants of the Ilkhanate.

These are the main contenders for the Ilkhanate at the start of the game:
Country Selection Jalayirids.png

Country Selection Huleguids.png

Country Selection Gurgan.png

The Persian/Iranian countries that are part of the Ilkhanate have their own flavour content available:

The lands of Persia have always been situated in a privileged position, serving as a point of contact between the West and the East and on the path of many trade routes. These lands have thus also served as a hub for exchange of ideas, cultures, and faiths, with Zoroastrianism, Islam, Christianity, and even Buddhism permeating among its population.

The Iranian peoples are thus world people, and Persia has also been the birthplace of many great empires in the past, from the Achaemenids to the Sasanians. The recent Mongolian invasion and the establishment of the Īlkhānān have imposed on them foreign rule, but the Iranian peoples are ready to rise once again.

For instance, you have advances like these:
Advance Sasanian Heritage.png

Advance Silk Road.png

There are in total 21 different advances for the Persian countries.

There are also special buildings like the Ṣafawiyya Order Hall and the Ḡilmān Barracks, and special units like the Kızılbaş Skirmisher and the Ḡilmān.

This is the formable for Persia, and how it would look like:
Persia.png

Persia2.png

Let’s now take a look at one of the main contenders in Central Asia, the Chagatai Horde:

The great Činggis Khān managed to forge a great empire for all Mongolian peoples, bringing into his fold great swathes of land from Europe to China. All people learned to fear the sound of the Mongolian armies galloping and the might and power of the Great Khān.

As heirs of his legacy, the dream of bringing back the glory of the greatest Mongolian Horde is still alive.

Country Selection Chagatai.png

Mongolian countries (which also include countries involved in the Ilkhanate IO, such as the Jalayirids or the Hüleguids) have a ton of content available, both for being Steppe Hordes, and also specific Mongolian content. We aren’t going to reveal today most of it, since this is already a meaty Tinto Flavour, and we still have to take a look in the future to the Golden Horde, which also has unique content; but this is an overview of it:
Government Type Content.png

These are some of the most relevant features for the early game:
Advance Steppe Slave Raiding.png

Reform Legacy of Cinggis Khan.png

Advance Horse Lords.png

Unit Horse Archers.png

Unit A Urughs.png

Let’s now take a look at the content for the Situation The Rise of Timur. It can happen to you if you start the game with Chagatai or any of its subjects. But if you start the game with Barlas, one of these subjects, you will find this lovely baby in your court:
Bay Timur1.png

Baby Timur2.png

Trait Prodigy.png

Apparently this baby might be a Prodigy!

There are some events about the childhood and adolescence of Temür, and if he gets to the adult age, this event will trigger:
Rise of Temur.png

This event can fire initially not only for Barlas, but for Chagatai or any of its subjects, firing then a follow-up information event for all the rest, in which the player will get the chance to choose to change into the Timurids country if there were not initially playing the chosen country and the Timurids is AI. This gives a bit of variation on the starting situation of Timur while also ensuring that the player can always follow the Timurid path if they are playing in the area.

Temür has several traits, but this is the most important:
The Scourge from Central Asia.png

The chosen country will change, becoming the Timurid Horde:
Timurid Horde.png

And the Situation itself will appear:
Rise of Temur Panel.png

The counters for enemies kills and cities razed are there just for flavour, they don’t have any mechanical purpose.

The End Requirements make the situation likely to last for the entire life of Temür:
Rise of Temur End Requirements.png


These are the requirements to form Mongolia, BTW:
Form Mongolia.png

The first of the actions, Plan Invasion, has this effect:
Plan Invasion.png

Plan Invasion2.png

Rise of Temur CB.png

If you are able to unify a region, the second action, ‘Select Core Region’, will appear:
Rise of Timur Select Core Region.png

Rise of Temur Select Core Region2.png

Rise of Temur Select Core Region3.png

After having selected a Core Region, a third action will unlock:
Rise of Temur Reform into Monarchy.png

Which, in case of being selected, will make you a Settled Country, with the Monarchy Government type, and the Rank of Empire. This might potentially be the result:
Timurid Empire.png

A successful Timurid Empire, across Central Asia and Persia!

There is more content and events triggering during the situation, but these are its core features. From here, there’s also more flavour content for the Timurids, related to the historical events and situation that happened to the Empire. This is probably the most important event for them:
Event Integration Iranians.png

Event Integration Iranians2.png

Which unlocks this Major Reform:
Timurid Diwan.png

The Governorship is a unique mechanic of the Timurids, that allows them to have a unique type of subject, for members of the ruling dynasty. This may have its cons, as there might several claimants to the Timurid throne…

…And much more, but that’s all for today! We hope you enjoyed it! Next week will be intense, since on Monday we will have the Tinto Maps Feedback for the Horn of Africa, on Wednesday we will have the Tinto Talks for the Holy Roman Empire, and on Friday we will have the Tinto Flavour for Saxony! Cheers!
 
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Love it, however it would really be better to use English names like "Khan", "Timur", "Genghis Khan" and "Ilkhanate" rather than the transliterated "Khān", "Temür", "Činggis Khān" and "Īlkhānān". Just better for understanding

What about Big Chunggis in charge of Chungatai
 
The fashion in the pics seems very anachronistic,Mughal style and also the faces of the persons look too Middle Eastern while they should have a more Mongol look there was a big Turkic and Mongol influx on Persia and Middle East that time.Below some fashion suggestions for Ilkhanate and Timurids:
View attachment 1276776
View attachment 1276777
View attachment 1276778View attachment 1276779View attachment 1276780
View attachment 1276815
View attachment 1276814
View attachment 1276787
View attachment 1276788View attachment 1276789
View attachment 1276790
Yeah, when it comes to those helmets in particular, those are the ones I've usually seen with regards to Timur. For reference, some artwork from the Zafarnama:
1743872632476.png

1743872725577.png


As for non-military headgear, here's a depiction of Timur in court from another edition of the Zafarnama:
1743872807589.png

1743872869633.png


"Big poofy hat" was not the sort of headwear he was ever depicted wearing.
 
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My idea for a fully re-envisioned "Timurid conquest":
  • Have it be focused on two core regions instead of just one (historically it was both Khorasan and Iran, not just Khorasan)
  • Wars declared with the "conquest CB" in the core region have very cheap subjugation costs while also auto-annexing any occupied locations
  • Subjects in the core region, if less than 50% loyal, are exposed to a "annex disloyal subject" CB that also auto-annexes occupied land while providing cheaper land conquering
  • Countries outside of the core regions are exposed to a "devastate CB" of some sort that allows for making them into a tributary; this does not auto-annex land
    • Tributes provide military access and monthly payments but do not join wars; they can be declared war on by their suzerain
  • Timur can also just directly "demand fealty" through a targeted action against any state; most states will refuse this, but very small states adjacent to Timur or a subject will probably accept
    • They become tributaries this way rather than vassals; this is mostly so that regions with tons of small states (Kurdistan) can be subjugated without conquest since otherwise it would be quite tedious
  • States can also swear fealty themselves without being demanded
Like... more often than not, when you see a map of the Timurid Empire, it looks like this:
1743875778216.png

This is not the Timurid Empire. A much more accurate description of his empire is this:
1743875818322.png

As you can see, he didn't actually have control outside of Khorasan and Iran. Plenty of states he subjugated and then never annexed (Mihrabanids being the earliest), but once you start looking to Iraq and beyond, it really was just tributaries at best. Even with the states he did fully annex (Kartids, Muzaffarids), it was a two-step affair; first a subjugation and taking some of their land, and then a full annexation due to their disloyalty. The only subject of his outside of Iran and Khorasan that's actually a subject and not just a tributary (the Kurds effectively just bought him off and stood out of the way) is the Aq Qoyunlu, who swore fealty and were rewarded greatly (insomuch that they were given some of the land conquered from the Qara Qoyunlu, but the main reward was that they weren't attacked compared to the Qara Qoyunlu and that gave them an opportunity to take those lands belonging to them).

When you think of it that way, where there's a lot more subjugation and then "annexation when I get around to it" and most of the states outside of that core region are just tributaries, the fact that he did all of this in only 20 years (didn't start conquering outside of Transoxiana until 1381!) seems much more reasonable. I wonder whether representing things this way might even make his empire form more reliably than the current approach.

Frankly if you do it this way I don't even think you need to hand out free cores.
 
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Could the Ilkhanan IO be turned into a generic IO for any fallen horde empire?
It could be repurposed to represent the fall of the Timurids, the Golden Horde, Chagatai and Aq Qoyunlu as well.
All of these empires collapsed in a similar fashion: due to infighting among the ruling family which fragmented the realm.
It would thus make sense that any horde empire that is created in game would be at risk of falling to a similar fate.

Maybe horde empires that have not reformed enough would be at risk of pretender rebels at ruler's death as well as a pretender-related situation for extreme crises, and if pretender rebels occupy enough of the country for long enough it could shatter into an IO.

In general I wish to see more generalized ways in which an empire can die.

I also hope that reforming the Ilkhanan (or any other such IO) will be an uphill battle and not something that usually happens.
 
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I'm curious why the the Greek-derived name of "Persia" was used for the empire formable, when the area was/is locally known as Ērān and thus the correct non-exonymic English name would be the Iranian Empire?

Is it being used just because some people might wrongly assume Iran is just the modern name and they associate "Persia" with pre-modern Iran?

To be pedantic Persia would more accurately be referencing only the province of Fars, which is named for the tribe which settled there and from whom the Greeks got the word originally (Fars -> Pars -> Parsia -> Persia) and which was once the political center of the region, but by the time of the game had not been for some time. Eran on the other hand has by the time of the game's start been used to refer to the whole region by the Eran (As a people) for at least a millennia, and continues that way until the present day.

Some rulers even had the word in the official title of their rulers. The Ilkhanate and Timurids obviously preferred the more Mongolic naming (And both use tags which are not Iran, which fits that), but the Qara Qoyunlu, Aq Qoyunlu and Saffavids switched back to the titles of either Emperors of Iran or Kings of Kings (šâhanšâh) of Iran.
THIS PARADOX PLEASE USE THIS!!!!
Please stop using Persia for the empire for the region for the culture group.
Iranshahr/Empire of Iranians/Iranian Empire for the Empire title
Iranzamin/Iranian lands for the region title
We have the correct words for every thing that is needed, but instead you still want to stick to the Persia...
 
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I think it would be better if it took a big % of the countries to be counquered for the organisation to dissolve. It's gonna be a pain in the ass to annex every single one and lets be honestly 2-3 countries wouldn't hold it together
 
My idea for a fully re-envisioned "Timurid conquest":
  • Have it be focused on two core regions instead of just one (historically it was both Khorasan and Iran, not just Khorasan)
  • Wars declared with the "conquest CB" in the core region have very cheap subjugation costs while also auto-annexing any occupied locations
  • Subjects in the core region, if less than 50% loyal, are exposed to a "annex disloyal subject" CB that also auto-annexes occupied land while providing cheaper land conquering
  • Countries outside of the core regions are exposed to a "devastate CB" of some sort that allows for making them into a tributary; this does notauto-annex land
    • Tributes provide military access and monthly payments but do not join wars; they can be declared war on by their suzerain
  • Timur can also just directly "demand fealty" through a targeted action against any state; moststates will refuse this, but very small states adjacent to Timur or a subject will probably accept
    • They become tributaries this way rather than vassals; this is mostly so that regions with tons of small states (Kurdistan) can be subjugated without conquest since otherwise it would be quite tedious
  • States can also swear fealty themselves without being demanded
Like... more often than not, when you see a map of the Timurid Empire, it looks like this:
View attachment 1277127
This is not the Timurid Empire. A much more accurate description of his empire is this:
View attachment 1277128
As you can see, he didn't actually have control outside of Khorasan and Iran. Plenty of states he subjugated and then never annexed (Mihrabanids being the earliest), but once you start looking to Iraq and beyond, it really was just tributaries at best. Even with the states he did fully annex (Kartids, Muzaffarids), it was a two-step affair; first a subjugation and taking some of their land, and then a full annexation due to their disloyalty. The only subject of his outside of Iran and Khorasan that's actually a subject and not just a tributary (the Kurds effectively just bought him off and stood out of the way) is the Aq Qoyunlu, who swore fealty and were rewarded greatly (insomuch that they were given some of the land conquered from the Qara Qoyunlu, but the main reward was that they weren't attacked compared to the Qara Qoyunlu and that gave them an opportunity to take those lands belonging to them).

When you think of it that way, where there's a lot more subjugation and then "annexation when I get around to it" and most of the states outside of that core region are just tributaries, the fact that he did all of this in only 20 years (didn't start conquering outside of Transoxiana until 1381!) seems much more reasonable. I wonder whether representing things this way might even make his empire form more reliably than the current approach.

Frankly if you do it this way I don't even think you need to hand out free cores.
Eh,maybe some players want to grow big and conquer them.Also I would add Timur eventualy annexed Iraq.
 
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Eh,maybe some players want to grow big and conquer them.Also I would add Timur eventualy annexed Iraq.
"Annexed Iraq" is putting a bit too clean a spin on it. The first attempt didn't last especially long (his governor vacated the premises shortly after Ahmad Jalayir returned). The second attempt, the city was leveled but Timur never bothered to actually establish any sort of authority in the region; he salted the earth and left. Ahmad Jalayir returned shortly after that, too.
 
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My idea for a fully re-envisioned "Timurid conquest":
  • Have it be focused on two core regions instead of just one (historically it was both Khorasan and Iran, not just Khorasan)

Didn't Timur plan to conquer other regions too? Pretty much as far as his army could march? Also not sure how the game is going to represent the implementation of the mass mass mass murder thing he also had going on everywhere he and his army marched.
 
Didn't Timur plan to conquer other regions too? Pretty much as far as his army could march? Also not sure how the game is going to represent the implementation of the mass mass mass murder thing he also had going on everywhere he and his army marched.
Outside of Khorasan and Iran, his conquests were always more of a "sack city, claim conquest" sorta thing. He did very much plan on marching over to China to "conquer the Ming", but that would not have been especially different than his "conquest of Delhi" or any other state outside the core regions; sack the cities, walk off with loot and slaves.

There's a lot of misconceptions about the extent that Timur's empire actually had any sort of permanent control in the places that he "conquered".
 
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Also just as a detail that I want to reaffirm (it seems the devs agree on this so this is just clarifying for those who are curious): Timur's empire did very much remain nomadic in character until his death. The devs are correct in that assessment. Ruy González de Clavijo makes that abundantly clear in his visit to Timur's empire.
 
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Also just as a detail that I want to reaffirm (it seems the devs agree on this so this is just clarifying for those who are curious): Timur's empire did very much remain nomadic in character until his death. The devs are correct in that assessment. Ruy González de Clavijo makes that abundantly clear in his visit to Timur's empire.
How do you propose the sack of Delhi be portrayed in game ?
 
How do you propose the sack of Delhi be portrayed in game ?



I assume by doing this, unless it's something you can do only to conquered territory, rather than occupied:

1743888294206.png



 
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My idea for a fully re-envisioned "Timurid conquest":
  • Have it be focused on two core regions instead of just one (historically it was both Khorasan and Iran, not just Khorasan)
  • Wars declared with the "conquest CB" in the core region have very cheap subjugation costs while also auto-annexing any occupied locations
  • Subjects in the core region, if less than 50% loyal, are exposed to a "annex disloyal subject" CB that also auto-annexes occupied land while providing cheaper land conquering
  • Countries outside of the core regions are exposed to a "devastate CB" of some sort that allows for making them into a tributary; this does notauto-annex land
    • Tributes provide military access and monthly payments but do not join wars; they can be declared war on by their suzerain
  • Timur can also just directly "demand fealty" through a targeted action against any state; moststates will refuse this, but very small states adjacent to Timur or a subject will probably accept
    • They become tributaries this way rather than vassals; this is mostly so that regions with tons of small states (Kurdistan) can be subjugated without conquest since otherwise it would be quite tedious
  • States can also swear fealty themselves without being demanded
Like... more often than not, when you see a map of the Timurid Empire, it looks like this:
View attachment 1277127
This is not the Timurid Empire. A much more accurate description of his empire is this:
View attachment 1277128
As you can see, he didn't actually have control outside of Khorasan and Iran. Plenty of states he subjugated and then never annexed (Mihrabanids being the earliest), but once you start looking to Iraq and beyond, it really was just tributaries at best. Even with the states he did fully annex (Kartids, Muzaffarids), it was a two-step affair; first a subjugation and taking some of their land, and then a full annexation due to their disloyalty. The only subject of his outside of Iran and Khorasan that's actually a subject and not just a tributary (the Kurds effectively just bought him off and stood out of the way) is the Aq Qoyunlu, who swore fealty and were rewarded greatly (insomuch that they were given some of the land conquered from the Qara Qoyunlu, but the main reward was that they weren't attacked compared to the Qara Qoyunlu and that gave them an opportunity to take those lands belonging to them).

When you think of it that way, where there's a lot more subjugation and then "annexation when I get around to it" and most of the states outside of that core region are just tributaries, the fact that he did all of this in only 20 years (didn't start conquering outside of Transoxiana until 1381!) seems much more reasonable. I wonder whether representing things this way might even make his empire form more reliably than the current approach.

Frankly if you do it this way I don't even think you need to hand out free cores.
The other benefit to representing things this way is that it actually gives a chance for the player to survive Timur's invasions by swearing fealty and staying on his good side just long enough to Timur to die, then reassert their power as his empire collapses.
 
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I'm curious why the the Greek-derived name of "Persia" was used for the empire formable, when the area was/is locally known as Ērān and thus the correct non-exonymic English name would be the Iranian Empire?

Is it being used just because some people might wrongly assume Iran is just the modern name and they associate "Persia" with pre-modern Iran?

To be pedantic Persia would more accurately be referencing only the province of Fars, which is named for the tribe which settled there and from whom the Greeks got the word originally (Fars -> Pars -> Parsia -> Persia) and which was once the political center of the region, but by the time of the game had not been for some time. Eran on the other hand has by the time of the game's start been used to refer to the whole region by the Eran (As a people) for at least a millennia, and continues that way until the present day.

Some rulers even had the word in the official title of their rulers. The Ilkhanate and Timurids obviously preferred the more Mongolic naming (And both use tags which are not Iran, which fits that), but the Qara Qoyunlu, Aq Qoyunlu and Saffavids switched back to the titles of either Emperors of Iran or Kings of Kings (šâhanšâh) of Iran.
Yeah, it's weird to me that the game insists on using unfamiliar endonyms like "Ilkhānān", but they don't even use the word Iran, which is both more accurate than Persia and is also a real English word itself! Paradox should definitely use Iran instead of Persia.
 
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Also just as a detail that I want to reaffirm (it seems the devs agree on this so this is just clarifying for those who are curious): Timur's empire did very much remain nomadic in character until his death. The devs are correct in that assessment. Ruy González de Clavijo makes that abundantly clear in his visit to Timur's empire.
Also to add like in EU4,there should be a choice to the player if he wishes to move towards a more persian version of the Timurid Empire or keep it nomadic after the death of Timur.
 
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Outside of Khorasan and Iran, his conquests were always more of a "sack city, claim conquest" sorta thing. He did very much plan on marching over to China to "conquer the Ming", but that would not have been especially different than his "conquest of Delhi" or any other state outside the core regions; sack the cities, walk off with loot and slaves.

There's a lot of misconceptions about the extent that Timur's empire actually had any sort of permanent control in the places that he "conquered".

In other words, he was just LARPing as Genghis Khan "we have no need for cities"
 
In other words, he was just LARPing as Genghis Khan "we have no need for cities"
Well, he did care about one: Samarqand. The rest that he destroyed were generally rebuilt by people other than him. Though I do recall reading that he did use his army to build a lot of infrastructure in the wake of their destruction... though I think again that was done by people in his entourage rather than him in particular.
 
I would like Shirvan to have a mechanic or events that help preserve the country from destruction:
The state of Shirvan found itself “between two fires,” and Ibrahim I did not consider it possible to enter into open conflict with his dangerous enemies. Instead, he chose a policy of non-intervention and sought to exploit the irreconcilable rivalry between Timur and Tokhtamysh. Soon, he arrived at Timur’s camp bearing generous gifts and pledged his loyalty to him. The Shirvanshah took part in Timur’s campaigns against the Ottoman state (1389–1405) and, as a vassal, also participated in his subsequent expedition against the Golden Horde. In 1395, at the Battle of the Terek River, Timur’s army achieved a decisive victory. Thus, one of the major northern threats to Shirvan was neutralized by another.
In this way, Ibrahim I protected his country from inevitable attacks and devastation. Without paying tribute to Timur, as other vassals did, he secured the status of a ruler who effectively governed his own land. As a result, Timur’s army bypassed the Shirvanshah state, and the economy and population suffered relatively little dama
ge.