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Tinto Talks #59 - 16th of April 2025

Hello and welcome once again to our super secret Project Caesar Tinto Talks. I will be your host this time, where we will be talking about the mechanics of Catholicism and its associated Catholic Church International Organization.

Here’s an overview of the religion itself:
Catholicism Tooltip.png


One thing to highlight here besides all the other effects, is that Catholic countries are not able to tax their clergy at all by default, although there may be other things modifying this on top of it. However, the clergy won’t necessarily swim in money, as that has to be instead paid to the Papacy directly in the form of a tithe.
Tithe.png


Another key aspect of Catholicism is that all Catholic countries will belong to the Catholic Church IO:
Catholic Church Map.png

Catholic Church IO pannel.png


You can see here that there are quite many countries belonging to it (the total list is expandable and scrollable), with some of them having some special statuses. For Bishopric and Military Order these are self-explanatory, but the Curia and Cardinals need some more information.

The decisions concerning the Catholic Church are taken by the Curia, which is composed of Cardinals. In Project Caesar, Cardinals are represented by a special building, called Cardinal Seat, available to be built by Catholic countries higher than county rank in any location where they already own a large religious building. Each Cardinal Seat will grant its owner country a Cardinal, which the country can use to influence the decisions of the Curia (more on that later). Countries can have more than one Cardinal Seat and thus more than one Cardinal, that’s why in the panel you can see that there’s 7 countries in the Curia but a total of 16 Cardinals among them.
Cardinal Seat.png


Another aspect of the Catholic Church IO is its doctrines, represented by a set of laws. These laws are not something that’s easily changed, as it’s what defines the core values of Catholicism, but some important events will be able to shape them, like for example the Council of Trent (more on that in future Tinto Talks). Here are some of these laws effects:
Papal Authority.png

Purchase of Indulgence.png

Marriage of Priests.png

Persecution of Witchcraft.png


Next to the Doctrines, we have the Papal Bulls. These are actions that any Catholic country can choose to propose, but only those in the Curia can vote on whether to pass them or refuse them. Here are the possible bulls with some examples:
Papal Bulls.png

Illius Qui Se Pro Divini.png

In Coena Domini.png


When voting on a Papal Bull, the interface changes slightly to show how many cardinals support each option. It goes without saying that all the cardinals that a country has will be assigned to vote for the same option, so the amount of cardinals a country has is effectively its amount of votes.
Papal Bulls Vote.png


Besides the Papal Bulls, there’s also the action of Excommunication, available to all countries of the Curia, that if approved, will get the excommunicated country some very nasty modifiers and allow for a special casus belli.

Excommunication Effects.png


The Catholic Church also has some extra aspects in the form of Saints and Holy Sites. Saints are characters of a country that have been elevated to sainthood. A country can choose to canonize any of its previous rulers, and they will get benefits depending on the abilities of such character. Holy Sites are special locations to the Catholic faith, giving some extra income to their owner due to the affluence of faithful in them.
Saints.png

Holy Sites.png


Outside the Catholic Church per se and instead in the main religion panel, there are some extra religious actions available to certain countries, besides the already mentioned option to canonize a character.
Religious Actions.png


  • Demand Apostolic Tax is an action exclusive to the Papacy, in which they will demand extra payment from those countries with the Apostolic Tax privilege enabled.
  • Request Aid is an action exclusive to the military orders, in which they can ask to petition support to the Pope for their infrastructure, military, or coffers.
  • Placitum Regium is an action available to kingdoms or empires that gives them some extra crown power at the expense of relations with the Papacy.

One last thing to mention here is that, as you can see, Catholicism also has Reform Desire. However, in contrast to some other of our titles that also present this value, here it is not a ticking clock for the Reformation, but instead something that will come into play in the Council of Trent. As such, you will have to wait a bit for a further explanation on it.

And that is all for today, next week we will resolve these cliffhangers by taking a further look at what Catholicism has in store after the start of the game, including the situations of the Western Schism, Reformation, and the Council of Trent. On the other hand, in this week’s Tinto Flavor we will go directly to the head of Catholicism by taking a look at the flavor content for the Papal States. Also, remember that this week’s Tinto Flavour will be on Thursday, as this week is Good Friday and the Papal States would be too busy to attend their own Tinto Flavor then (oh, and it’s also a holiday).

See you next time!
 
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I thought the lands newly conquered by the Teutonic Order had a bunch of bishoprics?
Trier's size is typical for the time period - bishops and archbishops (and thus by extension cardinals) did not just reside in big cities. There aren't even that many in Catholic Europe at the start.

The 118th largest city in Europe in 1400. And certainly not a "city" by the game's standards.
The "bunch of bishopric" represent the various vassal entities subordinated to the order, as ecclesiastical Apanages.

Also, no, bishoprics and cardinals are not the same. There are thousands of bishops but only a handful of cardinals.
 
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In Project Caesar, Cardinals are represented by a special building, called Cardinal Seat, available to be built by Catholic countries higher than county rank in any location where they already own a large religious building.
Also, I think it makes sense for some countries - like France or Spain - to build cardinals as seats in their country, but since cardinals are usually bishops or archbishops, it doesn't really make sense in the HRE where those are actually on the map.
Especially with the requirement that the country is higher than county rank - are bishoprics county rank? Does that mean a literal bishop can never become a cardinal, but France can dominate the college as long as they spend enough money?

My idea would be to instead make the cardinal seat buildings into bishopric seats, which have a chance to be elected to the college of cardinals. The college would have a fixed number of seats where one random seat is replaced regularly. Bishoprics that are independent countries would also start with such a building.
At least then it wouldn't be so deterministic, and maybe building a bunch of bishoprics in your country can also come with the drawback of giving the clergy a lot of power. And of course you'd be limited to one bishopric per province.
The Cathedral building itself could potentially just count as having the seat of a bishop and be eligible for election to the college, without the need for a separate building.
It would also be cool if each seat of a bishop were to spawn a character in its country, with the title bishop or, if applicable, cardinal.
 
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The "bunch of bishopric" represent the various vassal entities subordinated to the order, as ecclesiastical Apanages.

Also, no, bishoprics and cardinals are not the same. There are thousands of bishops but only a handful of cardinals.
I never said they were the same? Cardinals are usually bishops or archbishops, that's why anything that applies to bishops or archbishops would also by extension apply to most cardinals. That's what I said.
 
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1. What happens if the Papal States disappear ? Do they appear somewhere else or does the church functions without them ?
2. Will cardinals be a character or only a building ? Having a cardinal in your cabinet could, for example, bring some good bonuses as many cardinals participated in the affairs of state.
3. Does Papal Ban on Empires mean that you can only become an empire if the pope allows it ?
4. Can the Papal States also name cardinals (as this was the way to have new cardinals) ?
1. They will reappear somewhere, as they are key to how Catholicism works
2. We are abstracting it with the buildings rather than with characters
3. It means the only empire accepted by the Pope is the HRE
4. No, cardinals are tied to the buildings
 
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There's a cost for starting a debate and for losing one, so you wouldn't start a Bull debate if you want to vote no on it. Voting no is basically when another country has proposed something and you want to punish them by voting no.
Does the AI exhibit this punitive behavior, or does it see it’d get a bonus such as maritime presence and vote yes
 
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The pope's influence is one of the core tenants of Catholicism, and you're undermining it by the very nature of how you're portraying the faith, mechanically. Perhaps countries should be able to build a cardinal's seat, but they should still have to try and get a cardinal elected to that position. This is completely the wrong way of representing the way cardinals were appointed. If it's meant to show the corruption in the system, that should be done by having countries able to try and bribe the papacy for a seat.
Perfectly put. Honestly I'd say that, as it stands, the cardinal appointment system of Project Caesar is worse and more ahistorical than the one we have in EU4, since at least in that game the player couldn't unilaterally create cardinal seats at will.
 
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Mind telling us more what the various latin laws and papal bulls mean as I don't know latin
Knowing Latin does not really help, the names of the bulls are just the opening words of the bulls, for example "Cum postquam" is translated as "When after" so you can't really tell what it speaks about from the name, although something like "rerum novarum" (of new things) can suggest a little bit what it could be talking about, but that is far from being the rule.
 
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I'd like to suggest you to add another military order, Order of Dobrzyń/ Brothers of Dobrzyń through some flavour event maybe? because last mention of them is from 1248 but there is no news about how they ended because not all of them joined Teutonic Order. Canonically order ended in 1350s. So you see there's a room for cool event for Catholic Poland.


1744812928590.jpeg

PS:
(Also please do research on Kuyavia/Kujawy region in 1337 from Poland Tinto Maps because Inowrocław Duchy(as seen on this map) shouldn't be Polish PU and shouldn't exist, add Gniewkowo Duchy and Gniewkowo location. Inowrocław/Dobrzyn dukes moved from Kujawy in 1320s to Sieradz/Łęczyca Duchies.)
[Please read it and change borders in Poland, Kuyavia)
(+ Duchy of Nysa was Bohemian(Czech) vassal since 1342 not 1337)
 
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1. They have to be Catholics, right? Without "piety" system like in CK3 or some restrictions the decision to canonize feel pretty arbitrary.
Btw is this moddable? I can imagine this could be helpful for various scenarios and especially if it can be used on living person too.
3. Please allow this to be moddable at least.
Yes, they have to be the correct religion. And the system is completely done by script, so it's fully modable.
 
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3. It means the only empire accepted by the Pope is the HRE
That's a problem considering that some mechanics are locked behind "Empire" rank.

E.g. recently we saw new Unify Culture Group mechanic:

Unify Culture Group
If you are an Empire, and the Dominant Country of your primary culture, the Unify Culture Group cabinet action can be used on a culture group belonging to your primary culture that has no other countries with that culture group. Upon completion, your primary culture will change to a brand new culture.

One of historical examples given in the dev comments for that was France. But in order to do it France would have to convert to some other religion, declare itself empire, unify culture and than return to catholicism (?)
While not allowing catholic countries willy-nilly become empires generally speaking serves historical flavour, in this case it becomes anti-flavour.
 
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1744813401603.png

The text here really needs outlines/backgrounds to help readability as some text blends into the busy background art

Anyways, fantastic dev diary! nice blend of crusader kings and europa universalis mechanics
 
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What about Crusade options or would that be considered anachronistic?

Can you decry the Spanish Inquisition and if you want to be radical (as the player), push for an inquisition in all Catholic countries?

Not sure if it was mentioned or not, but can you prevent the Reformation and the rise of Anglicanism in England? What about mending the Schism with the Orthodox Church?
 
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That's a problem considering that some mechanics are locked behind "Empire" rank.

E.g. recently we saw new Unify Culture Group mechanic:



One of historical examples given in the dev comments for that was France. But in order to do it France would have to convert to some other religion, declare itself empire, unify culture and than return to catholicism (?)
While not allowing catholic countries willy-nilly become empires generally speaking serves historical flavour, in this case it becomes anti-flavour.
That's more on the fact that the unify culture group thing is not a good idea, at least not if locked behind being an empire.
 
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