Reviving the Spartan culture

[CybrSlydr]

When the wandering nobles came out, I had a thought - I could start as a landless guy and work my way into reviving Spartan culture. Role play it as a kid who grew up idolizing the stories he heard in his education about Sparta, how they were ruthless in only letting the strong survive, etc.

What kind of traditions and the like do you think would represent a good, Spartan culture my landless noble may revive after ingratiating himself to a Lord and becoming landed and eventually independent?

A quick Google shows very little, though I did find this on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/paradoxplaza/comments/yzacli/spartan_culture_traditions

"Depend on whatever you're doing real Spartan or imaginary "Spartan"

Real Spartan would maybe have Ruling Caste, Staunch Traditionalist, Fighting Formation Expert, Onlt the Strong and/or Warrior Culture, Spartan (of course), Frequent Festivities, Mystical Ancestor

Main thing about real spartans is that Sparta was very much a Caste society with Spartan being de jure rulers, soldiers and partygoer, Women being de facto rulers, and Slave/Lakedemonians doing all the labor

As with most greek cities, Sparta was very adverse to change and fought in a very organized fashion, with lineage going back to mythological ancestors (in Sparta case, it was even more important to have such ancestors than in the other cities). Sparta also didn't care much for arts and beauty, but encouraged parties as a way of consolidating the phalanx. Finaly with women handling land management, Spartans did a lot a ploting to inherit land through mariage (between them, and without bloodshed), not sure how to represent the last one."

Thoughts?

 

[Koppel235]

To clarify some things:

1. The stories about Spartan eugenics,throwing the children in the chasm etc are false and not attested by archaelogical findings.
2. The status of the Helots is ambiguos they arent slaves,more like serfs.

Now with that said,sadly its not possible in the game mode to revive Spartan culture because it wasnt a thing for many centuries.But they should portray the Maniots and the Tsakonians who were their descendants.

 

[InsidiousMage]

If you want to do classical Spartan culture. . .

• You don't actually want to use the Spartan tradition as its built around castles and Sparta, the city proper, famously didn't have walls.
• You'll definitely want either Stoic or Bellicose ethos. Personally, I think Stoic fits better but you can make a case for both. Communal is also another good pick.
• Staunch Traditionalists, Ruling Caste, Formation Fighting Experts, and Stand and Fight! are obvious choices.
• Hereditary Hierarchy and Strong Believers are also logical choices as Spartans were the only Greeks on the mainland who still had kings and a lot of their decision making revolves around religious festivals and obligations, though those were mostly used as excuses so you could not use Strong Believers if you wanted to skip it.
• Martial Admiration, Modest, Religious Patronage, and Metalworkers are also traditions that you could argue for depending on what parts of Spartan Culture you wanted to emphasize.

In summation. . .

• You want either Stoic, Communal, or Bellicose ethos.
• Your core traditions would be Staunch Traditionalists, Ruling Caste, Formation Fighting Experts, and Stand and Fight!.
• The next best fitting traditions would be Hereditary Hierarchy and Strong Believers.
• Martial Admiration, Modest, Religious Patronage, Metalworkers, and Only The Strong are solid choices depending on what aspects of Spartan cultural you would like to emphasize or still fit even if you want to focus on their gameplay benefits.

 

[GhostDanny]

There should be a tradition or religious tenet that make all 7 year olds of the martial sex (standard only boys), need to spend a year in the wilderness.
High likelihood of dying but if they survive they gain a powerful trait that boosts prowess and health, also a chance to get shrewd.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

There should be a tradition or religious tenet that make all 7 year olds of the martial sex (standard only boys), need to spend a year in the wilderness.
High likelihood of dying but if they survive they gain a powerful trait that boosts prowess and health, also a chance to get shrewd.

Isnt this just tribal rite of passage?

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Isnt this just tribal rite of passage?

Tribal rite of passage is done as kid approaches 16. And the wilderness is just a option.

 

[Koppel235]

There should be a tradition or religious tenet that make all 7 year olds of the martial sex (standard only boys), need to spend a year in the wilderness.
High likelihood of dying but if they survive they gain a powerful trait that boosts prowess and health, also a chance to get shrewd.

Except again this is a hyperbole,this didnt happen at kids of 7 and neither they left them to fend for themselves in the countryside.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Except again this is a hyperbole,this didnt happen at kids of 7 and neither they left them to fend for themselves in the countryside.

Sparta had a great propaganda reputation. They would have probably approved of the movie 300.

 

[frostbiyt]

Role play it as a kid who grew up idolizing the stories he heard in his education about Sparta, how they were ruthless in only letting the strong survive, etc.

Given this framing, it probably makes sense to lean into the more legendary/less historical angle of the culture rather than what is attested in the historical record, as the study of history has progressed a lot in the past 1000+ years. I'd be willing to bet, though I don't know, that someone from CK3's time would have a very innacurate view of Sparta more similar to our modern pop culture version of Sparta than the historical reality. It would be interesting though to hear if anyone has insight into how medieval people viewed Sparta.

 

[GreyOgre]

Sparta had a great propaganda reputation. They would have probably approved of the movie 300.

It's funny how they're idolized today, for things that were supposed to be negative Athenian propaganda.

 

[GhostDanny]

Except again this is a hyperbole,this didnt happen at kids of 7 and neither they left them to fend for themselves in the countryside.

What about 12 years old then?

 

[Koppel235]

Sparta had a great propaganda reputation. They would have probably approved of the movie 300.

Except not really.The Spartans would disaprove of the things people say or the movie presented.Like they didnt brutally train their children to death among other things,or endlessly throwing their soldiers away.And their society wasnt a bunch of barbaric brutes.They had their own songs and poets like Athens,which sadly are lost.

It's funny how they're idolized today, for things that were supposed to be negative Athenian propaganda.

Kinda agree.There is lot of bad press circulating about Spartan by both modern political sides.None of those people do really wish to really study about ancient Sparta..And a lot of the bad press around them are falsehoods perpetuated by "historians" with an agenda like Deveraux.If someone wants to study Sparta,Cartledge is the authority.He really dispels a lot of the bad history circulating around Sparta.

 

[Koppel235]

What about 12 years old then?

Not really,from 7-12 the kids would start their 1st part of their training but they would still stay at home with their parent.They left their house at 12 but werent cut off from contact with their families.What happened really was that as the boys were now only provided with a modest common meal, they were encouraged to ‘earn’ any surplus of food by hunting and ‘ritualised stealing’. This last detail has been the source of great debate amongst historians and caused much confusion in the public imagination. Spartiate households appear to have had relatively large food storage units and the boys were encouraged to ‘steal’ from these in dedicated operations: the idea behind this practice seems to have been that being caught while doing so betrayed poor planning, coordination and execution skills, and would thus be punished.

 

[Goodfortune99]

It makes narrative sense for a Spartan revival in a medieval context to revive Sparta as it was or could've been imagined in the medieval period. We can debate one way or the other how Sparta and Spartan culture actually were.

In this sense, I wouldn't scoff at going for the fantastical or hyperbolical. That's what a lot of historical revivals have done, rather than an accurate representation. And it creates fascinating storytelling opportunities in itself, how our imagination of the past creates an amalgamation of something new.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Full disclosure, I have not seen the movie 300. But I have heard it tried make the Spartans more badass than they already were. The propaganda of their military strength was a great deterrent for Sparta. Since their citizen pool was very limited, they tried limit the actual number of engagements. If the rest of the Greek City states stopped believing that Sparta was full of super soldiers, Sparta’s position would be difficult to maintain. Just like how the reputation of the Mongols convinced many places to give up without a fight.

I don’t know how the film portrayed it, but the 300 and allied contingents were trying to buy some time for the rest of the Greeks after the Persians found a way to encircle them. There was supposedly a prophecy that a Spartan king would have to sacrifice his life. Later on, Sparta did try to milk the sacrifice of their king for all that it was worth.

 

[Koppel235]

Full disclosure, I have not seen the movie 300. But I have heard it tried make the Spartans more badass than they already were. The propaganda of their military strength was a great deterrent for Sparta. Since their citizen pool was very limited, they tried limit the actual number of engagements. If the rest of the Greek City states stopped believing that Sparta was full of super soldiers, Sparta’s position would be difficult to maintain. Just like how the reputation of the Mongols convinced many places to give up without a fight.

I don’t know how the film portrayed it, but the 300 and allied contingents were trying to buy some time for the rest of the Greeks after the Persians found a way to encircle them. They was supposedly a prophecy that a Spartan king would have to sacrifice his life. Later on, Sparta did try to milk the sacrifice of their king for all that it was worth.

Except the reputation of Spartans as dominant on land preceded Thermopylae,it existed even from the 530s-20s and after when the Samians were asking for Spartan contigent against Persia in the 500s.Btw historians specialised in Sparta dont support your "supersoldier" argument,this is mostly bad history circulating in social media like reddit.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Except the reputation of Spartans as dominant on land preceded Thermopylae,it existed even from the 530s-20s and after when the Samians were asking for Spartan contigent against Persia in the 500s.Btw historians specialised in Sparta dont support your "supersoldier" argument,this is mostly bad history circulating in social media like reddit.

The reputation I said, not the actual facts. You are deliberately misinterpreting my argument! I also never said nor intended to imply that their reputation started after xerxes's invasion!

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

Full disclosure, I have not seen the movie 300. But I have heard it tried make the Spartans more badass than they already were. The propaganda of their military strength was a great deterrent for Sparta. Since their citizen pool was very limited, they tried limit the actual number of engagements. If the rest of the Greek City states stopped believing that Sparta was full of super soldiers, Sparta’s position would be difficult to maintain. Just like how the reputation of the Mongols convinced many places to give up without a fight.

I don’t know how the film portrayed it, but the 300 and allied contingents were trying to buy some time for the rest of the Greeks after the Persians found a way to encircle them. They was supposedly a prophecy that a Spartan king would have to sacrifice his life. Later on, Sparta did try to milk the sacrifice of their king for all that it was worth.

Even in-universe, the film is not trying to be realistic. It's a story that Dillios is telling his men. It's explicitly Spartan propaganda.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Even in-universe, the film is not trying to be realistic. It's a story that Dillios is telling his men. It's explicitly Spartan propaganda.

It’s similar to how the Spartans would have wanted their story being portrayed. At the very least, Sparta wanted others to believe that their army was two grades above the others.

In a way, it is roughly similar to how historians think that Disney’s Pocahontas is how John Smith would have wanted his story to be remembered.

 

[czertik]

well, i dont get that obsession with sparta. other than famous last stand, what else they did ? yes, i know that famous monty pythos scene from life of brian.
there were more sucesfull greek city states than sparta.