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Tinto Flavour #17 - 13th of May 2025 - Vijayanagar & Indian regional content

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Fridays Tuesdays & Fridays in which we take a look at the content of Europa Universalis V!

Today we will talk about three topics: the generic content available for most of the countries in India; the unique content of Vijyanagar; and other regional content available for other Indian countries. A meaty TF, so let’s start without further ado!

Let’s start by talking about the generic content available for Indian countries. There are some reforms, policies, and units that are available to most countries, like these:

Nayankara System.jpg


Poligar.jpg


Paik System.jpg

The Paik System unlocks three types of levies, depending on the age:

Early Paik.jpg

Paik.jpg

Late Paik.jpg

There are also Elephant units:
Elephant Cavalry.jpg

Elephant Auxiliary.jpg

And a building that produces Ivory from Elephants - For those of you not so tuned into the Tinto Maps series, we’re representing African elephants with the Ivory resource, and the Indian elephants with the Elephants resource, so it can be used for units (as Elephants), or for other economic purposes, by transforming it first into Ivory with this building:
Elephant Hunting Grounds.jpg

Advances like:
Saqiyah.jpg

And a unique type of vassalage - The Samanta System, with 3 different subject types:
Samanta Feudalism.jpg

Samanta.jpg

Maha-Samanta.jpg

Pradana-Maha-Samanta.jpg

Finally, let’s take a look at the flavour naming of the states in the Hindu Indian countries:
Indian Estates.jpg



Let’s now take a look at the unique flavour content of Vijayanagar, a country that in 1337 was leading the resistance against the Sultanate of Delhi in Southern India:

The newly founded Mahārājya of Vijayanagar stands strong after the momentous defeat of Delhian troops in the Deccan, with Mahārājā Harihara Sangama and his brother Crown Prince Bukka Raya Sangama leading the fight against the Muslim rulers of India.

Although the Vijayanagari rule has only recently been established, the current situation in the Deccan promises us a rapid rise to power if we can utilize our momentum correctly, as we can secure control over important trade routes between China and Europe, and profit from exporting valuable goods from our resource-rich lands.


Vij Country Selection.jpg

Vijayanagar1.jpg

Vijayanagar2.jpg


Vijayanagar has a unique policy for the Administrative System law:
Vij Rajya.jpg

It also has unique advances, as usual:
Vij City of Victory.jpg

Vij Bunds.jpg

Vij Bund.jpg

Vij Carnatic Music.jpg

And it also has several flavour events, such as:
Vij Prophecy of.jpg

Arirayavibhada.jpg


Administration of the Realm.jpg

Multilingual Court.jpg


Vij Astadiggajas.png

Astadiggajas.jpg

Another country with unique content is Orissa, which has a very interesting setup, with some countries as Samanta subjects:
Ori Country Selection.jpg

Orissa1.jpg


Ori Anka Year.jpg

Ori Elephants.jpg

Ori Elephants 2.jpg

Ori Odia.jpg

We also have unique content for countries such as Bengal, Bahmani, and Pandua. For example, in the first case, it starts as three independent countries, which in the case of unifying the region and forming the Sultanate of Bengal:
Bengal.jpg

Would get contents and events such as:
Pandua.jpg

Finally, we also have a bunch of content for other formable countries, that will work as ‘regional powers’ with unique content such as advances, etc. This is a list of these formables:
  • Deccan
  • Gujarat
  • Hindustan
  • Marathas
  • Mughals
  • Nepal
  • Punjab
  • Rajputana

…But since this Tinto Flavour is already long enough, you’ll have to find out about it when playing our game, as that’s all for today!

Remember that tomorrow there will be a Tinto Talks about Hinduism, Jainism & Sikhism; on Friday a Tinto Flavour about Delhi; and next Monday we will have the Tinto Maps Feedback for India. Cheers!
 
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I'm glad India is getting some kind of flavor at release, though I do feel there are a few improvements that could be made.

First, there are indeed many theories on the early life of Harihara and Bukka Raya, but most recent evidence shows that after founding Vijayanagar they were associated with the court of the Hoysalas. Here is a list of events that we know occurred, that wouldn't make as much sense if Vijayanagar was completely independent:

1. Ballappa Dandanayaka, a nephew of the Hoysala king Veera Ballala III, had married a daughter of Harihara.
2. Immediately after coming to power, Harihara was associated with the building of a fort at Barkuru, on the west coast of present-day Karnataka. Considering the Alupas were long-time vassals of the Hoysalas (and I believe Barkuru was still under their control by this point, though I may be mistaken), this seems strange unless Vijayanagar was already closely associated with the Hoysala court
3. At Harihara's coronation, after the death of the last major Hoysala King, the widow of the dead Hoysala King played a key role in the coronation, seeming to be a source of legitimacy for Harihara.
4. Vijayanagar seemed to have quickly absorbed the former territories of the Hoysalas with minimal resistance, with local nobles for the most part accepting their new Kings, indicating Vijayanagar already had relations with these former nobles via their previous relationship with the Hoysala court.

Now, making Vijayanagar a vassal at game start may seem like a nerf, but if you implement a situation (here was my idea for one: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/vijayanagar-content-suggestions.1744126/#post-30346208) similar to the Ottoman's situation, that allows Vijayanagar to mostly just peacefully annex the Hoysalas as they did irl, it would be a significant buff. That would allow them to reach their historical borders more often in games.

Perhaps an event like this could be implemented for the Hoysalas when Vijayanagar manages to eclipse the Hoysalas in strength, in line with that situation:

Vijayanagar Claims the Throne of Karnata

Our erstwhile vassals in Vijayanagar have seen an opportunity after our recent string of misfortunes, rallying together the nobles of our realm and attempting to seize the throne of Karnata for themselves, in an effort to "maintain the Kannadiga war effort against the Turks." We may either accede to their demands, or attempt to resist.

Options:
-Perhaps it is for the best... [Historical, should be what the AI usually picks]
Effects:
- Vijayanagar fully annexes all lands of the Hoysalas of Karnata. All Hoysala cores are transferred to Vijayanagar.

- We must teach them their place.
Effects:
- Vijayanagar declares war on the Hoysalas of Karnata

If you don't want Vijayanagar to be shaded red at game start (maybe you want them to stand out on the map), you could represent the relationship between Harihara and the Hoysalas with an IO instead.

Also, Vijayanagara should start the game as a march of the Hoysalas, not an independent nation. Harihara was only proclaimed king in 1346, after the collapse of the Hoysala Kingdom after their defeat at the hands of the Madurai Sultanate. Before then, Harihara was a feudatory of Ballala III. I suggest you add a situation, perhaps called “Rise of the Kannadiga” (maybe along the lines of what you plan to do with the Rise of the Ottomans situation) which models either a resurgent Hoysala uniting the South or a rising Vijayanagara gaining independence and establishing an Empire. Perhaps have some mechanics relating to Vijayanagara gaining independence if Hoysala is defeated in a war by the Madurai Sultanate.
1747148713969.png

(link: https://electricscotland.com/independence/sip/HistoryofIndia.pdf)

I wrote this all in a hurry, so I may come back later to make a larger post about Vijayanagar.
 
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  • Can we have an icon in the 'title box' instead of the two lines for major reform?
  • What is the world is 'assume fort command' and 'ennoble cost modifier', I cannot decipher from the icons.
  • 'Progress towards'
  • 'Nobles Satisfaction'
  • Can we get some adornments to the flavor text box? I think events have a border and corner adornments for it.
Nayankara%20System.jpg


  • change the subtitle to 'Policy | Levy Law' instead of the extra line
  • If the list of effects upon implementation is empty, don't put the title and 'none.'
    • I still have issues with the name of the section but cannot come up with a better one
  • Can we get some adornments to the flavor text box? I think events have a border and corner adornments for it.
  • Shouldn't the 'Peasant Levy Size' icon be the 'Levy Size' Icon used in the Poligar System with a 'Peasant estate' icon in the upper left position?
  • Same could be said for the tax. Base <tax: coins>, lower right <Maximum: up arrow to bar> upper left <Peasant: Peasant Estate>
  • Change <yes/no> values to <allowed/blocked>
    • "Paik Levies" <--> "Allowed"
Paik%20System.jpg


  • The green/red system only makes sense if we know what we are comparing to. Maybe only mark the values that are not one a base unit. (i.e. if "Strength Damage Taken" if not typically an attribute for Infantry then color code it (in this case green as it is positive).
  • all of the least significant digits should be aligned below the 0 in 400 in the unit statistics. (i.e. effectively have a 'column' for the icons and percent symbol)
  • All values in the 'requirements' should be of the same precision as others in their lists (doesn't _have_ to match between the two tables).
  • Personally I feel the unit statistics table is too wordy and wide. While it might be useful for the sub 10 hour player, I think that Icons and a fixed format would be better in the long run.
  • Can we change the manpower and sailor icons to not be two people in profile to help differentiate that these are currencies and not pop-types.
  • Are the Maintenance costs per unit strength? Can this be indicated some where?
    • I would prefer that it would show the full cost on non-units (i.e. hovering in a build this menu, or an advance) and the current pro-rated cost on actual units (i.e.. hovering actual unit in army).
  • Is there a reason we are calling these 'requirements for X' instead of 'X costs'?
  • Is there a reason to not use the goods parchments designed for Production Methods?
  • Not liking that 'combat performance' and 'terrain impact' as two sections.
    • maybe have it closer to CK3 MaAs with a red of green icon of the terrain
    • Or maybe Mountain Icon with a -10% combat +10 terrain stacked next to or under it.
    • Do you expect to have things in this list that will need hundredths of a percent accuracy?
Paik.jpg


  • cleanup and height reductions
    • Put the Age icon in the title bar like you do with Advances
    • 'Building Type | Production' like you do with unit types
    • move the location requirements to the pop-type line
    • (are we really sticking with a roman number in circle on red banner as the location 'type' indicator?)
  • Shift the +10 over so the it end where the -5.00 ends.
  • Isn't the barrel the production icon modifier? Apple sub barrel being Food production
  • get rid of the brown background for the numbers so they appear to be on the paper with the good icon.
  • Change the ivory to 1.0 to match the left side of the line.
  • Why is it 'requirements for X' and not 'X costs'?
  • Why are the production methods horizontal with parchments and the 'costs' are a vertical list menu?
Elephant%20Hunting%20Grounds.jpg


  • Can we have some indication in the title bar to indicate that the advance has been researched instead of the line
  • Change to <icon of thing> <thing> <value> to match the other lists.
    • "<*> Samanta Subject Type" <--> "Unlocks"
    • "<*> Maha-Samanta Subject Type" <--> "Unlocks"
    • "<*> Pradhana-Maha-Samanta Subject Type" <--> "Unlocks"
Samanta%20Feudalism.jpg


  • Having one section just called rules while there are later specific 'X rules' seems off
  • I thought that the stuff at the bottom was flavor text but it isn't so mush as it contains things that should be listed in the desctripion I think. (I.e. Cannot be annexed, can be changed to Maha-samanta).
  • I assume you have icons for RGO, Road, Buildings; Can we just show the icons of what is allowed instead of a list. (or always show them and add red x through them when not allowed.)
  • If there are no rules as to when the 'subject' will join wars can it be reduced to one liners?
    • "Country will always join Country's defensive wars" <-- always
    • "Country will never join Country's defensive wars" <-- never
    • "Country will join Country's defensive wars if:" <-- list
  • Was that really supposed to say Country and Country?
  • (I think it is funny that tribute isn't considered a benefit for Overlord)
Samanta.jpg


  • I think it interesting what you feel is important when selecting a country to play. I would think some of the other values that are shown in the country tooltip would make sense being indicated here. (locations X of Y, etc)
  • What is in the description tab?
  • (feels like a kid on vacation trying to take a picture of the place he is in but mom told him that the picture needed people in it.)
    • I think it would look better if this was portrait shaped (instead of landscape) with him centered about where the column on the back wall is. This allows for data to be to the left while still utilizing the model and the background.
  • Don't like the stylized sun icon (maybe put the primary religion icon there?)
Vij%20Country%20Selection.jpg


  • Don't like the 'castle' board game pieces on the map
  • Is there a (togglable) legend for the different city icons?
Vijayanagar2.jpg


  • For things without time limits can we just not say any time instead of forever?
    • <thing> gains <modifier>
    • <thing> gains <modifier> for <number> years
  • Can we please have the modifier effects listed in line so that we don't have to hover to figure out what it does?
    • <thing> gains <modifier>
      • <icon><first modifier effect> <value>
      • <icon><first modifier effect> <value>
  • Why do the effects in the modifier tool tip not have icons like in other tooltips?
1747148839553.png


  • Add the tier to the subtitle "Formable Country | Tier III" and remove the single line
  • Can we indicate the number of locations that we have, not just the we do not have 44
  • I suppose the comma list is the least amount of space.
Bengal.jpg


hope any of that was helpful
 
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WOW, this is great! I've always been asking for content on Punjab and Nepal since EU4, and finally, we are getting it in EU5. I’d like to add that these were the simplified hierarchies of feudalism in India:
1. Samasta-Mahāasāmantādhipati(Overlord of all Great Sāmantas)
  • Role: Assumed by the ruler themselves.
  • Description: The supreme ruler who controls or oversees all high-ranking feudatories.
2. Mahā-sāmantā-dhipati(Overlord of Great Sāmantas)
  • Role: Assumed by the ruler or granted to strong vassals, signifying royal status.
  • Description: A ruler who controls powerful feudatories or a strong vassal with significant authority.
3. Sāmantā-dhipati(Lord of Sāmantas)
  • Role: Oversees several smaller feudatories.
  • Description: A regional noble with authority over multiple smaller chiefs or vassals.
4. Mahā-sāmanta (Great Feudatory)
  • Role: A high-ranking noble, often a military leader, with significant territorial control.
  • Description: A noble with considerable influence but still loyal to a higher overlord.
5. Sāmanta(Feudatory / Vassal Chief)
  • Role: A local ruler owing tribute and military service to a higher overlord.
  • Description: A minor lord or chief with limited power, bound by fealty to a more powerful ruler.

Since there are only three , could you please rename Pradhan-Samanta to Mahā-Sāmanta-Dhipati?It would be more accurate and historical.
Sāmanta → Mahā-sāmanta → Mahā-sāmantā-dhipati

Also is there jagirdari system ?

The Jagirdari system was a land grant system prevalent in medieval India, particularly under the Mughal Empire, but also used in various forms by regional kingdoms before and after the Mughal period.
 
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A few comments:
1. The Nayankara system and Palaiyakkarars (Poligars) were limited to the Karnata Samrajya (Vijayanagara), while Paiks were limited to Mallabhum and the states of North-Eastern India, so making them generic Indian advances feels odd.
2. Characterising the Vijayanagara Empire as a "Hindu polity" which stood as a "bulwark against Islamic expansion" is quite reductive especially wrt modern academia. Their cosmopolitan character and composite culture is a rich tapestry; Carnatic music didn't diverge from Hindustani because of some desire to "keep music pure".
4. Why not call the Odia advance "Gajapati"? It means the exact same thing and is shorter too. Also it's Odia or Oria or Oriya or Odiya not Orissan.
5. Why is the Vijayanagara Raja half naked???? It is very well attested that they wore persian-style clothes with ornate Indian crowns. And weird to see Odias sharing Telugu costumes.

Also, please consider the following salient points for showing me one or two Bengali advances:
please please please please please please please please please please please please
First is first, great feedback, thanks!
1. Related to the Nayankara system, I think that the problem is that it should get the tag = VIJ clause, which is not the case, and very likely a bug; adjusting it.
2. Just renamed Poligar System to Palaiyakkarars; it is restricted to countries with Telugu, Tamil, Kannada, or Malayalam as court language.
3. About the Paik, yes, true, we'll adjust it accordingly.
4. We know, but sometimes we need to use some 'tropes' to reinforce the 'meaning' of certain content assets, and also to create some more immersion into the country.
5. We'll check for the best spelling.
6. Forwarded the first question to our 3D team. About the second, we use a shared graphical culture which we call 'Deccani', based mostly upon Vijayanagar culture, clothing, architecture, etc. This is similar to what we do with other parts of the world, as we have one 'European' graphical culture, one 'Islamic' graphical culture, and so on. Over time, we want to add more depth and variation to the different graphical cultures, but
7. Here you are:
Bengali Architecture.jpg

Bengali Vassal System.jpg

Bengali Paik.jpg

Bengali Paik2.jpg
Interestingly enough, we also have recruitable Paik regular soldiers. We'll make sure that the Paik levies and the Paik regulars are properly adjusted.
 
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First is first, great feedback, thanks!
1. Related to the Nayankara system, I think that the problem is that it should get the tag = VIJ clause, which is not the case, and very likely a bug; adjusting it.
2. Just renamed Poligar System to Palaiyakkarars; it is restricted to countries with Telugu, Tamil, Kannada, or Malayalam as court language.
3. About the Paik, yes, true, we'll adjust it accordingly.
4. We know, but sometimes we need to use some 'tropes' to reinforce the 'meaning' of certain content assets, and also to create some more immersion into the country.
5. We'll check for the best spelling.
6. Forwarded the first question to our 3D team. About the second, we use a shared graphical culture which we call 'Deccani', based mostly upon Vijayanagar culture, clothing, architecture, etc. This is similar to what we do with other parts of the world, as we have one 'European' graphical culture, one 'Islamic' graphical culture, and so on. Over time, we want to add more depth and variation to the different graphical cultures, but
7. Here you are:
Interestingly enough, we also have recruitable Paik regular soldiers. We'll make sure that the Paik levies and the Paik regulars are properly adjusted.
Wonderful! Maybe Dehlavi might be preferable to Dehlian?
 
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This is all cool. Vijayangar and Orissa are two fun nations. I am also happy to see so many people and the tribal faiths of india being repersented just makes me happy.

can you tell us if any of the tamil kingdoms like the Pandayas or Cholas would have flavor? what about Sri Lanka will they have anything? being a buddhist kingdom in south asia makes them fun.
Pandy has advances like these:
Ancient Roots.jpg

Expert Resistance.jpg
 
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@Pavía I don't understand why Are Hindustan, the Mughals and even Dehli considered 3 different tags? Wouldn't it be better to make them the same country with different name, flag and flavour?
Why? Delhi and the Mughals are different historical tags, it would be like saying that Ottomans and Mamluks are the same tag. And Hindustan is a historically plausible, so also a different thing.
 
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