Tinto Maps #6 Great Britain & Ireland Feedback

[Sheep_Are_Baaad]

For the areas map, Ireland was historically split into 5 regions Ulster, Munster, Leinster, Connacht and Meath.
Meath was eventually incorporated into leinster in the 16th century, and you obviously don't want to have to many areas, so I understand why it's a part of leinster but it would be cool to have it be its own thing and maybe have an event that could incorporate it into leinster later on depending on whoever controls it at the time as it was an english administration that formalized it as 4 provinces rather than the historical 5.

Also would be nice to see ireland's silver mines represented.

 

[dw70676]

You're asking for an event to trigger a cultural pop 300 years into the game. That's railroading man. First you asked if they'll be in the game now you're saying you were just suggesting how they could be present. I've already explained that mechanically it seems you can do it without events. I'm gonna stop now cos we're just spamming the thread.

My man, I'm not spamming, literally all I was doing was responding to your questions. EDIT: NVM, you said we, fair enough.

I started by asking the devs if the Scots-Irish/Ulster Scots would be represented in any way, that's all. I wasn't advocating anything. If the answer had been "No," that'd be that. And I wasn't necessarily advocating for an event. You said, "Idk if there'd be events because everything is up to change. Like you'd have to create them yourself mechanically," so I just gave an example of how you could make such an event. I don't know if that's the best way to do it (I trust the devs to have a better understanding than I do) even if you want to be that hands on.

I was literally saying it was not a suggestion, just an example of how it could be done. I have not, and am not, suggesting anything. Just asking if Ulster Scots (or however you prefer to refer to the Scots that settled in Northern Ireland following the Plantations) will be represented in some way. Yes, this would have to be after the start of the game, though it would not necessarily have to be 300 years after (unless we want to... railroad it to be the case)

Personally, I wouldn't classify that as railroading. There were multiple plantations of Ireland by England, not just of Ulster, from like 1500s onward. Would not be beyond the pale to have a way of recreating them in some way, assuming you are an England player controlling Ireland (plus maybe some other qualifiers) by event or some other mechanic. That said, everyone has their own limit of where it goes from not railroading to railroading, so I'm happy to drop that.

 

[livebythecreed77]

Regarding music in the game thought this could be a fun edition if you are looking for some Gaelic related flavour. Said to be resembling the music Eoghan Ruadh marched with.

 

[Sheep_Are_Baaad]

The Native irish were not hit as badly by the black death as the anglo Irish, will that be represented in the game

 

[phantasmAgaric]

I don't love it. Incidentally I'm tempted to merge the Home Counties with East Anglia to make them more evenly-sized. But I don't have good flavor name for Home Counties or the conglomerate of Home Counties + East Anglia. South East England feels a bit contrived or boring.

The closest thing England had to mid-level administrative divisions during this time period were its assize court circuits, which served an administrative function and are essentially the right size. Given that much of the purpose of counties in this time period was judicial already, these seem appropriate for the next level up, and are definitely more appropriate than Anglo-Saxon kingdoms or modern statistical regions.

There were six circuits in England from 1328 until 1876, with minor changes over this period. Here's a map of the circuits judges took in 1531, which was essentially identical across the time period.

If that's a little hard to read, the circuits for most of this period were the following:

I think these are a pretty sensible basis for English areas, given that they were literally designed as groupings of counties it would be feasible to travel between within a couple of weeks and had similar enough needs the same judges could assess cases across the whole area. I think they could handle a little bit of tweaking: the Oxford Circuit should swap Monmouthshire for Cheshire (which was actually subject to Welsh courts through this period), which had more in common with other counties along the Welsh border than it did with the North. Cheshire was part of neither Northumbria nor Danelaw, and was heavily linked to the administration of Wales. This would only change with the explosive growth of Liverpool and Manchester during the industrial revolution. The Oxford Circuit and Norfolk Circuit salients in Oxfordshire/Berkshire and Buckinghamshire/Bedfordshire are also a little awkward - it might be better to group these with Northamptonshire as a "South Midlands" region.

The names also need sprucing up: the Home Circuit can become the Home Counties (much more appropriate for the time period in this reduced state), the Western Circuit can become either "Wessex" or the "West Country", and the Northern Circuit can be "Northumbria" or just "Northern England". If you make an extra "South Midlands" area, then "East Anglia" works perfectly for the rest of the Norfolk Circuit (but no matter what Essex belongs with London in any area setup at this time). If not, then the larger area can be something like "Eastern England" or even just "Anglia", but I don't really like either.

Obvious names for the Oxford and Midland Circuits would be the West and East Midlands, particularly if Oxford and Berkshire are removed from the West Midlands (though during this period it was common to consider them Midland counties). Alternatively the Midland Circuit can just stay the "Midlands", and the Oxford Circuit (particularly without Oxfordshire and Berkshire) can become the "(Welsh) Marches", but I don't particularly like that. Regardless, "Mercia" as a term had been out of favour for centuries at this point, and something like "Danelaw" would be even worse.

 

[phantasmAgaric]

The closest thing England had to mid-level administrative divisions during this time period were its assize court circuits, which served an administrative function and are essentially the right size. Given that much of the purpose of counties in this time period was judicial already, these seem appropriate for the next level up, and are definitely more appropriate than Anglo-Saxon kingdoms or modern statistical regions.

There were six circuits in England from 1328 until 1876, with minor changes over this period. Here's a map of the circuits judges took in 1531, which was essentially identical across the time period.
View attachment 1297691

If that's a little hard to read, the circuits for most of this period were the following:

View attachment 1297701
I think these are a pretty sensible basis for English areas, given that they were literally designed as groupings of counties it would be feasible to travel between within a couple of weeks and had similar enough needs the same judges could assess cases across the whole area. I think they could handle a little bit of tweaking: the Oxford Circuit should swap Monmouthshire for Cheshire (which was actually subject to Welsh courts through this period), which had more in common with other counties along the Welsh border than it did with the North. Cheshire was part of neither Northumbria nor Danelaw, and was heavily linked to the administration of Wales. This would only change with the explosive growth of Liverpool and Manchester during the industrial revolution. The Oxford Circuit and Norfolk Circuit salients in Oxfordshire/Berkshire and Buckinghamshire/Bedfordshire are also a little awkward - it might be better to group these with Northamptonshire as a "South Midlands" region.

The names also need sprucing up: the Home Circuit can become the Home Counties (much more appropriate for the time period in this reduced state), the Western Circuit can become either "Wessex" or the "West Country", and the Northern Circuit can be "Northumbria" or just "Northern England". If you make an extra "South Midlands" area, then "East Anglia" works perfectly for the rest of the Norfolk Circuit (but no matter what Essex belongs with London in any area setup at this time). If not, then the larger area can be something like "Eastern England" or even just "Anglia", but I don't really like either.

Obvious names for the Oxford and Midland Circuits would be the West and East Midlands, particularly if Oxford and Berkshire are removed from the West Midlands (though during this period it was common to consider them Midland counties). Alternatively the Midland Circuit can just stay the "Midlands", and the Oxford Circuit (particularly without Oxfordshire and Berkshire) can become the "(Welsh) Marches", but I don't particularly like that. Regardless, "Mercia" as a term had been out of favour for centuries at this point, and something like "Danelaw" would be even worse.

Here's what my personal prefer for English areas would be, for what it's worth.

 

[riadach]

The Native irish were not hit as badly by the black death as the anglo Irish, will that be represented in the game

If they have it that rural areas won't be as badly hit than urban ones then that should happen automatically.

 

[Chief of Staff]

I am kind of sad that Westminster was excised as a location and merged into London in this map of Great Britain. Westminster was the largest parliamentary constituency in terms of number of voters that qualified in the era of the so-called unreformed House of Commons. It was regarded at the time as one of the most democratic parliamentary boroughs and, consequently, one of the most prestigious ones.

Charles James Fox, that famous leading opponent of prime minister William Pitt the Younger in the House of Commons and a Radical, was one of its most notable members in the entire history. That constituency was also notorious for having a significant number of Radical voters, so no surprises there that they would elect one of their own. The number of voters who qualified in this constituency was such that any electoral recounts, if ordered to resolve an electoral dispute, would have been very time-consuming and expensive, as it did happen in 1784.

There probably are compelling gameplay reasons for merging Westminster into London in EU5, though, I suppose. But, if it were up to me, I would personally mod the location back in.

Another thing that Paradox Tinto should be aware of, if they are not yet, is that not all constituencies of the unreformed House of Commons are geographical-based. There were the two so-called university constituencies that represented the graduates of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. Aforementioned prime minister William Pitt the Younger was elected in 1784 to represent the University of Oxford constituency, an honor which he had long coveted and which he would represent for the rest of his life until his death. Hopefully, the Parliament mechanic in EU5 will make some allowances to depict this, but it is such a minor thing that it is probably not going to happen, unfortunately.

I would personally love to see more detailed English Parliament with more granularity. Having things like:

1. Actual general elections for the Parliament, with a power to dissolve them and call a new election before its term expired. The duration of parliamentary elections should be set at five years by default, with a possibility of the Parliament setting them to seven years.
2. Having different franchises for different parliamentary constituencies, making some of them easier or harder to bribe. University constituencies, as I mentioned, of course.
3. Different factions that rise and falls with the time.
4. Political parties that can split into factions (like Whigs did after George III's accession in 1760) or eventually dissolve (like the old Tories from 1660s; not to be confused with the Tories that formed out of the split of the Whigs in 1780s-1790s, though no 'members' called themselves that at that time) because of the changing times. Having this kind of evolution can create a sort of political instability, as seen in the 1780s.
5. Parliament that acquired more control over the finances post-Glorious Revolution, forcing you to eventually appoint a prime minister to act as a bridge between the Crown and the Parliament.
6. Oh, yes, and have two houses of Parliament actually represented in the game...
7. Parliament automatically dissolved for a general election at the demise of the Crown. I don't know about you, but this would give you a sort of feeling that a truly new reign has started in Britain, besides the obvious signs of a new reign found elsewhere in the countries.
8. Parliament actually having a power to commit anyone it does not like to the Tower of London.

But some of these things could potentially end up making the Parliament a micromanagement nightmare, unfortunately. Anyone remember Imperator: Rome? :x But one can only dream.

 

[Antor Seax]

[*]Actual general elections for the Parliament, with a power to dissolve them and call a new election before its term expired. The duration of parliamentary elections should be set at five years by default, with a possibility of the Parliament setting them to seven years.

Or three, if you're feeling particularly Parliamentarian.

 

[phantasmAgaric]

I liked the separate Westminster location in the initial Tinto Maps setup, but if the game works better mechanically with each urban area in a single location then I'm fine losing it. In that case, you really have to lose Southwark too: it was a suburb partially governed by the City of London, and couldn't really be extricated from it. Including it in London would allow for a location roughly the same shape and size as the Victorian-era County of London, which is also a sensible maximum extent for the city in this time period. This would also allow us a rump Middlesex location, better representing the more rural hinterlands surrounding London. As we have plenty of two-location provinces in England already, I don't think there's any need to include Barking in a "Middlesex" province: it wouldn't be incorporated into London until the 1960s. This setup would also free up the rest of the Southwark location for a "Kingston" location in Surrey, but it could also join the Reigate location, possibly renaming it.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

View attachment 1297569
Thought I'd leave some quick Wales feedback - it's looking good, but a couple things stand out as a result. The most important of these is that the city from which the southern half of the Principality of Wales was administered from is not part of it in this setup! Fortunately, there's enough space to add a proper Carmarthen location, with the remaining part of Carmarthernshire south of the Towy (the historic Cantref Bychan and Cydweli) becoming the key Norman stronghold of Kidwelly. Also, I'm not sure why you've changed to the small town of Llangollen from Wrexham for the Powys Fadog/southeast Denbighshire location. It sounds a little modern, but by this time it was already an important market town specialising in arms manufacturing and iron and lead mining. It was one of the largest settlements in Wales, and the seat of the Marcher Lordship of Bromfrield and Yale. It should also being readily accessible directly from Denbigh, rather than blocked off by Flint and Eryri.

Apart from these I think it would be nice to split the Montgomery and Builth locations for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the majority of the Builth location is outside of the lordship of Builth and cantref of Buellt, half of which has actually been assigned to the Brecknock location - Builth is actually is actually in a key location between the Cambrian and Black mountain ranges, controlling access to the Towy valley, so there definitely should be access from the location to Carmarthenshire. Additionally, the lordships east of the river Wye would become the county of Radnorshire rather than joining Builth in Brecknockshire. Extending Builth southwards and adding a Radnor location to represent these much more English-influenced lordships would also us to avoid the awkward and ahistorical "Powys" province, letting us include Builth and Radnor in a Brycheiniog/Brecknockshire province.

Likewise, splitting Machynlleth from Montgomery also allow a split between the rugged, Welsh parts of Montgomeryshire and the more easily-controlled lowlands, as well as letting us represent the Dee valley (the bit of the principality that sticks off to the east) as part of the Harlech location, adding a wasteland for the rugged Berwyn mountains. Machynlleth was important in its own right as a market town with sea access along the Dyfi river (something very remote indeed from Montgomery), but is most famous as Owain Glyndŵr's capital during his rebellion against England. Given that he eventually controlled most of Wales, I think that's pretty significant!

View attachment 1297582

View attachment 1297589
This setup also allows for provinces based on either historic Welsh kingdoms (as it is currently, albeit with a weird modern Powys) or on the later counties. An extra location in each of historic kingdom of Powys and the often Brycheiniog-associated "Rhwng Gwy a Hafren" region allows for nice three-location provinces for Brycheiniog and Powys (which if included has to have the Llangollen/Wrexham Powys Fadog location), with a nice border between north Wales (Gwynedd and Powys) and south Wales (the rest). You could also split Deheubarth into Dyfed and Ceredigion, but Ceredigion might be a little small.

View attachment 1297591
A setup based on English provinces wouldn't need too much amendment - in the south just rename Deheubarth/Dyfed to Carmarthenshire, Brycheiniog to Brecknockshire, and optionally Ceredigion to Cardiganshire. We can then add a Denbighshire province, with the remains of Gwynedd and Powys becoming Carnarvonshire and Montgomeryshire, which if too small can be included with either Denbighshire or Brecknockshire.

If Denbighshire, Brecknockshire, and Montgomeryshire are too anachronistic (all of which being having been organised in 1535), we can rename them "Denbigh", "Brecon", and "Powys" after the largest Marcher Lordships in the provinces.

A sketch of some Wales changes based on this feedback

 

[SYAKURAPUHVAN]

Where's the dev map?

 

[MurticusYurticus]

Where's the dev map?

Is there development in EU5? I thought that's been done away with for pops and buildings. Could be wrong though

 

[SaintDaveUK]

The Isles as a vassal makes sense, but the Earldom of Ross makes basically the same sense - Ross and the Isles fought a famous feud over the first few decades of the game.

Here's a sketch of Ross and Moray as Bruce vassals to counter the Isles.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

There's a difference between a no man,'s land and being able to bring an army through an area. That is what this is trying to illustrate.

From what I've read, it was the construction of the old military road that made the area passable from north to south, at least to large armies, but I also don't see any indication that this road couldn't have been built significantly earlier. The main problem was that the terrain was (and still is) bogs. But I can't think of a reason for it to be more difficult to build such roads north south then it is to build them east west.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

I don't love it. Incidentally I'm tempted to merge the Home Counties with East Anglia to make them more evenly-sized. But I don't have good flavor name for Home Counties or the conglomerate of Home Counties + East Anglia. South East England feels a bit contrived or boring.

Why not Wessex?

 

[Antor Seax]

Why not Wessex?

Because very few people would call the West Country "Wessex", I doubt a lot of them have even heard of Wessex.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Could we see the development map mode please?

Development mapmode

 

[phantasmAgaric]

A sketch of some Wales changes based on this feedback
View attachment 1297774View attachment 1297775

Oh this is wonderful! Just to be clear the Carmarthen location should be in the Principality of Wales tag rather than the Welsh Marches.

 

[PenguinInHell]

@SaintDaveUK Since the first tinto maps for ireland theres been quite a few improvements to the map which is awesome, but i did notice there were some locations that were not in the correct in game areas / irl irish provinces. The locations of killeshandra, cavan and killycolly, which comprise the county cavan irl should be in the ulster area as cavan is in the irish province of ulster irl. The dundalk location is the county louth irl and should be a part of the leinster area as the county is in the irish province of leinster irl, and the entire province of kildare, which includes the counties kildare and carlow irl should also be a part of the county leinster. Ive overlayed a screenshot of the map in game with a map of the provincial borders irl and circled the areas to show these discrepancies.

If possible could you also post the dialects map of both ireland and britain and a zoomed image of the political map mode of just ireland, with the country names based on the primary culture of the nations? The names 'East Breifne' and 'Owill' dont sit right.

Also what culture is the orange striped culture in pembroke?