Tech Seems Insanely Slow?

[Abdulijubjub]

Great for the early game, but not nearly as efficient as actual research. (For best results, pair with Parliamentary System + Utopian Abundance + Seasonal Dormancy)

Civilians are extremely close, and possibly better.

3 academies means ~14* research output per civilian for 6 CG (plus the small yields the monument). A e.g. biologist with all vanilla support buildings turns 3 CG and 0.5 gas into 11 research, which burns fewer resources in upkeep, but makes less per pop.

11 civilians produce the same research as 14 researchers while burning 25 more CG (and also making e.g. trade and unity, which we're not counting). So if you can make 24 CG with fewer than 3 pops (which should be roughly achievably by late game), the efficiency is higher, not lower.

Though you're paying a civic for the privilege (and researchers will probably be able to get e.g. Astral Siphons to get better throughput in physics, at least). You could likely get better efficiency from some other civic that boosted researchers, albeit by different means.

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*counting the 0.5/0.5/0.5 output from UA as roughly equal to 0.5 base output (aka, assuming both civilian/researcher will effectively get a 3x multiplier from job output and job efficiency, combined).

Edit: redid math to account for lower UA research.

 

[Revengeance_oov]

Civilians are extremely close, and possibly better.

3 academies means ~15* research output per civilian for 6 CG (plus the small yields the monument). A e.g. biologist with all vanilla support buildings turns 3 CG and 0.5 gas into 11 research, which burns fewer resources in upkeep, but makes less per pop.

8 civilians produce the same research as 11 researchers while burning 15 more CG (and also making e.g. trade and unity, which we're not counting). So if you can make 15 CG with fewer than 3 pops (which should be pretty easy by the time you've got all the researcher-boosting tech we're assuming), the efficiency is higher, not lower.

Though you're paying a civic for the privilege (and researchers will probably be able to get e.g. Astral Siphons to get better throughput in physics, at least). You could likely get better efficiency from some other civic that boosted researchers, albeit by different means.

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*counting the 1.5/1.5/1.5 output from UA as roughly equal to 1.5 base output (aka, assuming both civilian/researcher will effectively get a 3x multiplier from job output and job efficiency, combined).

Are you counting designation bonuses, Discovery tradition efficiency, building upkeep bonuses, etc.?

Also UA is 0.5/0.5/0.5 not 1.5 per science type.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Are you counting designation bonuses, Discovery tradition efficiency, building upkeep bonuses, etc.?

Also UA is 0.5/0.5/0.5 not 1.5 per science type.

Fixed the UA diff. It does make it harder for Civilians to stay ahead (need to make 24 CG per 3 pops, rather than 15, using the 1:1 comparison above).

Not counting any upkeep reductions at all, but I'm also not counting any building/district upkeep or strategic upkeep for researchers. It's handwaving a bunch of stuff, on both sides, to make the general point that civilians produce more research per pop in exchange for burning more CG.

Using napkin math, the upkeep on support buildings and such costs as much as -25% saves you, which leaves -35% of upkeep reduction on the researchers not canceled out. Civilians don't get a designation for upkeep reduction, but they can be happily stacked on the capital instead (which would be roughly equal power for researchers, leaving roughly 15% unaccounted for).

It's close.

 

[AgtPA]

Make sure that when you start a new game you reset all the difficulty settings to default before you start. That fixed it for me.

 

[Black_Shade]

If you think you don't get techs fast enough:
1. Pick the civil education civic
2. Make 3 state academy on your capital
3. Upgrade them
4. Enjoy insane amounts of tech
5. Win the game.

There's a problem with step 1. for a lot of empires.

 

[Red Death]

Civilians are extremely close, and possibly better.

3 academies means ~14* research output per civilian for 6 CG (plus the small yields the monument). A e.g. biologist with all vanilla support buildings turns 3 CG and 0.5 gas into 11 research, which burns fewer resources in upkeep, but makes less per pop.

11 civilians produce the same research as 14 researchers while burning 25 more CG (and also making e.g. trade and unity, which we're not counting). So if you can make 24 CG with fewer than 3 pops (which should be roughly achievably by late game), the efficiency is higher, not lower.

Though you're paying a civic for the privilege (and researchers will probably be able to get e.g. Astral Siphons to get better throughput in physics, at least). You could likely get better efficiency from some other civic that boosted researchers, albeit by different means.

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*counting the 0.5/0.5/0.5 output from UA as roughly equal to 0.5 base output (aka, assuming both civilian/researcher will effectively get a 3x multiplier from job output and job efficiency, combined).

Edit: redid math to account for lower UA research.

Just curious: Is this taking into account the increased CG upkeep for Civilians (depending on things that increase Civilian output) that's coming today?

 

[klingonadmiral]

Yeah, it’s very wonky honestly; I almost feel whiplash sometimes. I’ll go from feeling like I’m accomplishing nothing early game to suddenly “holy S, I’m spitting out research nonstop and just reached mega engineering!”

The trick is getting gasses asap so you can roll the tech for the tier 2 labs which also gives the buildings for +15% researcher output and -20% researcher upkeep. That's the first big jump up in efficiency.

Also a start where you don't get at least one of the specialized labs in your initial tech options is probably reset worthy.

 

[Dr. B]

Just curious: Is this taking into account the increased CG upkeep for Civilians (depending on things that increase Civilian output) that's coming today?

He he, I bet they haven't fixed (or considered) one small detail:

When you go red into CG deficit, you lose tech output % per researcher job. Yep, not civilian job outout. Tech generation form civilians is totally unaffected by CG shortage.

So, just live like USA, always in (CG) debt, and occationally click the button for 50% job/pop CG savings for a unity hit, and keep rolling in research.
You can have thousands from the very beginning by building 3 academies and making everybody civilians.

This should obviously be fixed, but hey, enjoy while it lasts.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Just curious: Is this taking into account the increased CG upkeep for Civilians (depending on things that increase Civilian output) that's coming today?

I did not see that.

 

[Revengeance_oov]

I did not see that.

Yeah looks like Civil Education got nerfed into the ground.

 

[krios41]

On the topic of research, how are you guys getting tech to balance it out?

Like... HOW

 

[Losttruppen]

On the topic of research, how are you guys getting tech to balance it out?
View attachment 1297867

Like... HOW

If you have Astral Planes you probably will never succeed unless you build twice as many Engineer/Society spec'd worlds to compensate, since Physics gets an extra +1/2/3 Base output with their Siphons. Add the Luminarium Vassal and a decent Dyson Swarm and Physics gets pretty broken right now. You'll also probably get a Doorway somewhere for even more blue stuff.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

On the topic of research, how are you guys getting tech to balance it out?
View attachment 1297867

Like... HOW

How are you getting output this unbalanced? Astral Siphons everywhere? Crowd Sourcing as primary research source with factions that only give Physics? Just building physics specializations everywhere intentionally?

Astral Siphons really need a nerf...

 

[Deshiba]

Fixed the UA diff. It does make it harder for Civilians to stay ahead (need to make 24 CG per 3 pops, rather than 15, using the 1:1 comparison above).

Not counting any upkeep reductions at all, but I'm also not counting any building/district upkeep or strategic upkeep for researchers. It's handwaving a bunch of stuff, on both sides, to make the general point that civilians produce more research per pop in exchange for burning more CG.

Using napkin math, the upkeep on support buildings and such costs as much as -25% saves you, which leaves -35% of upkeep reduction on the researchers not canceled out. Civilians don't get a designation for upkeep reduction, but they can be happily stacked on the capital instead (which would be roughly equal power for researchers, leaving roughly 15% unaccounted for).

It's close.

The point is that the buildings give massive improvements for the researchers that civilians just do not get.

The Civilians are more cost effective early on, but at some point that stops being the case and you should reform out of the civic that fuels the strategy and convert those pops. You're paying more for the researchers, but you're also getting a lot more out of them.

 

[Deshiba]

On the topic of research, how are you guys getting tech to balance it out?
View attachment 1297867

Like... HOW

Even without using the astral threads you can still get stuff like this if you go cloning.
You can also specialize worlds like this:

Keep in mind this is a world set up to be somewhat self sufficient with the agri world designation, building and farming support districts, so you could get a bunch more society research out of it. (don't mind the CG local deficit. The 454 trade value should cover that locally imo)

 

[Abdulijubjub]

The point is that the buildings give massive improvements for the researchers that civilians just do not get.
View attachment 1298045
The Civilians are more cost effective early on, but at some point that stops being the case and you should reform out of the civic that fuels the strategy and convert those pops. You're paying more for the researchers, but you're also getting a lot more out of them.

It's like you aren't reading any of the text I wrote.

How do you think I got -60% upkeep reduction and the base output I've been referencing, if I wasn't already accounting for the boosting buildings?

This is all moot, regardless, since civilian output has been cut by 33%.

 

[Sirbab]

It definitely starts slower. Try getting one planet or more specifically focused on tech, make it very urban, make one of each resource district, and specialize them to be research ones and fill those up. You'll have one planet producing like half your science. Also, Dyson swarms when you get them are very fun when put on high science stars as you can get like 100 physics a month from one.
My evolutionary predator game in 2300 has me researching society techs at blazing speed, like 3 a year.

 

[Black_Shade]

It definitely starts slower. Try getting one planet or more specifically focused on tech, make it very urban, make one of each resource district, and specialize them to be research ones and fill those up. You'll have one planet producing like half your science. Also, Dyson swarms when you get them are very fun when put on high science stars as you can get like 100 physics a month from one.
My evolutionary predator game in 2300 has me researching society techs at blazing speed, like 3 a year.

There seems to be a big pacing problem. The tech is incredibly slow to start with, but by 2300 you'll be researching everything in 1-2 months.

They really need to reduce the base cost by a factor of 2 or 3, but dramatically increase the cost scaling so that late game tech still feels meaningful. I guess given the sweeping changes in this patch it's not a surprise that this is a bit out of wack but I hope they can address tech costs to make them feel more normal.

 

[Exasperation]

There seems to be a big pacing problem. The tech is incredibly slow to start with, but by 2300 you'll be researching everything in 1-2 months.

They really need to reduce the base cost by a factor of 2 or 3, but dramatically increase the cost scaling so that late game tech still feels meaningful. I guess given the sweeping changes in this patch it's not a surprise that this is a bit out of wack but I hope they can address tech costs to make them feel more normal.

I've already been using the advanced settings to turn down the base cost and turn up the cost scaling. I've been setting it to 75%/High so far, but I've been considering trying 50%/Extreme.

 

[krios41]

How are you getting output this unbalanced? Astral Siphons everywhere? Crowd Sourcing as primary research source with factions that only give Physics? Just building physics specializations everywhere intentionally?

Astral Siphons really need a nerf...

I do have a couple astral siphons yes, but not on my research planets funnily enough. I also have one Dyson swarm around a star with physics.
Other than that i have 1 planet dedicate to each research type.

I indeed do use the Crowd sourcing civic but i haven't rly paid attention to what the factions mostly give. Its not realy my focus, just a nice to have.