Tinto Maps #6 Great Britain & Ireland Feedback

[TartanClad]

I don't love it. Incidentally I'm tempted to merge the Home Counties with East Anglia to make them more evenly-sized. But I don't have good flavor name for Home Counties or the conglomerate of Home Counties + East Anglia. South East England feels a bit contrived or boring.

There’s no right answer here, to be fair. ‘South-East England’ is dull as you say and the Home Counties is a very ambiguous name with an uncertain, but relatively modern origin.

How about the ‘South Eastern Shires?’. While not officially the name of the region, it’s distinctively English, descriptively accurate and uses the administrative term ‘shire’ contemporary to the era while being more interesting than ‘South East England’.

I know it’s a stretch, but it was just a thought.

(Edit: It appears that the similarly named ‘South East Shires’ is also a regional cricket league in the area, though that name only goes back to the 1980s)

 

[macd21]

In a different post months ago. And the response he made clearly was not implemented


Irish as a unification culture of Gaelic and Hiberno-Norman which is exactly what Irish is btw, but we do not see that in the above map. Again with Gaelic Formables of Ríocht of Éire, if the people in in Ireland are Irish why not just form the Kingdom of Ireland? The Scottish Highland culture were also Gaels so just add Gael to the end of their name like Norse-Gael which is accurate. Why have accuracy for Norse-Gael but not for the people in Ireland who also were Gaels?

Not to mention does it not sound weird that a term the normans used to describe themselves is the term used to label the native people who didn't call themselves that.

So replace “Irish” with what, “Hiberno-Gael”? Irish-Gael?

 

[livebythecreed77]

So replace “Irish” with what, “Hiberno-Gael”? Irish-Gael?

Gael, Hiberno-Gael is pretty interesting actually. And if you are able to unify them all into Gaelic culture that's actually a good idea. I think I nearly prefer Hiberno-Gael, Highland-Gael and Norse-Gael and they all have the ability to form Gaelic Culture. Thanks for that.

 

[matfer13]

The isle of Skye should be in the province of the Inner Hebrides

 

[AntarcticRanger]

Irish as a unification culture of Gaelic and Hiberno-Norman which is exactly what Irish is btw, but we do not see that in the above map.

The biggest problem with having Irish be a unification culture I see is that means you will probably never see the Irish culture during gameplay. I doubt AI Irish minors will ever become powerful enough to unite their cultures and players are much more likely to unite the much bigger British or Celtic culture groups.

 

[livebythecreed77]

From what I remember of the feedback gaming youtube video there was mechanics that asked you to join the Lordship of Ireland if you were a Gaelic lord. This can be an IO mechanic between Anglo-Normans and Gaelic Chiefs/Lords (whatever term you prefer) to unify the cultures maybe? As we saw the Anglo-normans chose to try and integrate into our culture. And I bet IO mechanics can be used to replicate this.

 

[AntarcticRanger]

I should say I'm actually in favor of renaming the Irish culture (I like "Gaelic Irish", it has a nice symmetry with Anglo Irish) and having "Irish" being the unified culture name.

Also, doesn't the term "Anglo Irish" normally just refer to the later Anglican settlers while the previous settlers are called Norman Irish? Is the division between the two going to be purely religious or will the later settlers not assimilate and remain English culture?

 

[livebythecreed77]

The biggest problem with having Irish be a unification culture I see is that means you will probably never see the Irish culture during gameplay. I doubt AI Irish minors will ever become powerful enough to unite their cultures and players are much more likely to unite the much bigger British or Celtic culture groups.

Mind you though the term Gael was used well throughout 1300-2025, like Fine Gael, Cumann na nGaedheal, CLG (GAA) Padraig Pearse's writings stating he wanted a "Free and Gaelic Ireland", we still to this day use terms like Gaeltacht as well.

 

[livebythecreed77]

I should say I'm actually in favor of renaming the Irish culture (I like "Gaelic Irish", it has a nice symmetry with Anglo Irish) and having "Irish" being the unified culture name.

Also, doesn't the term "Anglo Irish" normally just refer to the later Anglican settlers while the previous settlers are called Norman Irish? Is the division between the two going to be purely religious or will the later settlers not assimilate and remain English culture?

Yeah Anglo Irish is a late 17th century term as members of the Anglican Church of Ireland who oversaw the English administration of Ireland. The Anglo Irish would have been at odds generally with the Norman Lords that came to Ireland Centuries ago. As they adopted Gaeilge as their language as an example and were also Catholic.

 

[matfer13]

The river Dyfi should not be sailable up to Machynlleth, although its estuary is fine after a certain point the river become too small and shallow for most boats and considering that the town is positioned much inland it feels weird to have the opportunity to land there with post medieval sea vessels, as such I think that the two coastal locations should be redrawn a bit

Even in the image provided it looks like this

 

[SaintDaveUK]

The river Dyfi should not be sailable up to Machynlleth, although its estuary is fine after a certain point the river become too small and shallow for most boats and considering that the town is positioned much inland it feels weird to have the opportunity to land there with post medieval sea vessels, as such I think that the two coastal locations should be redrawn a bit
View attachment 1298401View attachment 1298402

Yeah the Dyfi is a weird one. The intention was to make Harlech and Cardigan not accessible to each other from land. I could replace the estuary with an impassable lake perhaps.

 

[matfer13]

Yeah the Dyfi is a weird one. The intention was to make Harlech and Cardigan not accessible to each other from land. I could replace the estuary with an impassable lake perhaps.

Will it look like a normal river on the terrain map? If yes then that's fine, otherwise it's just better to change the locations a bit and connect them, no offense, but I don't think that these two locations are going to impact gameplay too much considering that you can still pass from Machynlleth and ignore the crossing

 

[livebythecreed77]

Isn't there a river map mode and a trade map mode we can see?

 

[matfer13]

Sooo...

I thought the resource map would be much closer to what I posted in the main thread. When I put this map together, I went through it in minute detail. Hundreds of hours. I had the best historical books that I am aware of (Agrarian History of England and Wales), googled major towns for their economic history, looked at resource maps, found historical writeups of resource production, found historical information on geographic regions, etc, etc, etc (all of this is in the main thread). Left no stone unturned. Went a bit mad, actually. It became a weird sort of obsession. I was dealing with some health issues (sleep issues), so I just kind of embraced the obsession and went down every rabbit hole.

Here's the map (and link: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...4-great-britain-ireland.1687953/post-29855860)

Spoiler

View attachment 1297932

Obviously, there are places with judgement calls. I talked about that in the main thread. Figuring out whether to put wheat, wool, or livestock in places with mixed husbandry was always going to a judgement call. I expected those to be different. I also specifically referenced some questionable choices in the map above where a resource was only discovered late in the game period (copper and gold in Wales). That said, in another thread, we were told that resources that were exploited during the game period were fair game. So, that actually would include those mines in Wales.

I also understand that gameplay is going to trump historical reality. I mentioned this in the main thread too. If there was too much of a resource so England didn't play as occurred historically, then that requires some modification. It may be that Paradox tried out the above map and it simply didn't produce historical outcomes, which is totally fine. Gameplay > history. But, in that case, I would have thought that the result would be a modified version of what I produced above. However, that doesn't seem to be what happened. I say that because the outcome is not just the above map with less coal, iron, etc (there is lead in places where I didn't have lead, iron in places where I didn't have iron, etc).

Anyway, it is what it is. This is an imperfect way to create these maps. In a perfect world, I would have met with the Paradox folks and worked with them on the choices. They could have given me a more clear set of instructions on how they wanted resources chosen, I could have done the research with those instructions in mind, I could have presented my findings, they could have explained why gameplay trumped a choice, etc.

Obviously, that wasn't possible.

All that said, given the assignment to determine raw materials for England and Wales based only on historical reality, I stand by my map as much, much more accurate than the one produced in the review. Every single location was heavily researched in my map and the raw material was chosen for a reason. I agonized over every choice.

I'll probably mod the above in when I play as England/Wales so that the time doesn't feel completely wasted.

Yeah there should at least be a coal rgo in the black country

 

[Mef]

Regarding the coal, I do find it interesting that Korea, a country that didn't industrialize before the 20th century, now has more coal locations (6) than England (4), which is clearly the most famous example for coal use in this time period.
I already suggested removing two of those Korean coal locations, so that would change the balance again, and the number of locations with a raw material doesn't necessarily relate to output of that raw material during actual gameplay, but at the very least it's something that may rise eyebrows...

 

[matfer13]

Warwick should be added as a location considering that Wsrwickshire is a province

 

[Antor Seax]

Also, doesn't the term "Anglo Irish" normally just refer to the later Anglican settlers while the previous settlers are called Norman Irish? Is the division between the two going to be purely religious or will the later settlers not assimilate and remain English culture?

The Catholic Normans are called the Old English and the Anglican English are called the New English.

 

[TartanClad]

The Catholic Normans are called the Old English and the Anglican English are called the New English.

In Ireland? That’s weird.

In England, Old English refers to the pre-Norman English language (as in, the Anglo-Saxons).

 

[matfer13]

Connacht uses two different spellings in game, both correct in English but for semplicity it's better to only use one(Connacht is the standard on Wikipedia)

Also if no one has brought this up already, Munster and Leinster should be tier 1 formables like Connacht and Ulster

 

[phantasmAgaric]

Yeah Anglo Irish is a late 17th century term as members of the Anglican Church of Ireland who oversaw the English administration of Ireland. The Anglo Irish would have been at odds generally with the Norman Lords that came to Ireland Centuries ago. As they adopted Gaeilge as their language as an example and were also Catholic.

I think the game would represent this fine by having the new protestant Anglo-Irish settlers just be English pops, who aren't in the Irish culture group. On this topic, too: I really want to push back against the Gaelic Irish, Norse-Gaels Highlanders sharing any "British" cultural group with the English. These groups were culturally extremely different and constant headaches to administer through the entire timeline, and an England/Great Britain player SHOULD be forced to make the decision to either integrate them, go out of their way to accept them, or even (as ended up happening with the Irish plantations and Highland clearances) displace and disempower them entirely. Giving them any measure of acceptance from the start is a huge mistake, and frankly there should be significant animosity between the groups at the game start.

The Welsh should probably also be heavily discriminated against initially too – Wales had only been properly conquered in the last 50-60 years, and was subject to massive repression and restriction. Both the Marcher Lordships and the Principality of Wales saw themselves as controlling the rebellious and alien Welsh to protect the English, rather than governing them. Policies such as the "Ring of Iron" - fortress-cities across Northern Wales populated with English, Norman, and Flemish settlers with the express purpose of restricting Welsh power, and parts of Southern Wales – from Little England in Pembrokeshire, to Gower and the Vale of Glamorgan in Glamorgan, to much of Monmouthshire – were deliberately settled en masse with the purpose taking fertile lowlands from the Welsh and setting up outposts of natural support from the Marcher Lords. There would be regular mass rebellions by the Welsh against English rule, and the Crown responded not with increased tolerance, but by making the Welsh second-class citizens, banning them from owning weapons, living in cities, and holding office. It would only be under a Welsh dynasty that these restrictions would be lifted with the Laws in Wales Acts 1535 and 1542, integrating Wales into the English legal system. At the same time, this banned the Welsh language from legal and official settings entirely: it was an attempt at assimilation, rather than tolerance. Perhaps a decision that would inherit the Principality of Wales and abolish the Marcher Lordships (regardless of how they're modelled - they do need to be modelled, though) could add the Welsh culture to the British culture group, if possible.

The relations between England and her Celtic subjects in the late medieval and early modern eras were very unusual within Europe at the time, and bear more similarity to colonial dynamics. This only makes sense once you understand the English saw themselves as far more distinct from the Welsh and Gaels than they did from the French, Flemish and Dutch, or even Germans and Scandinavians. I think if you give the English and Welsh/Gaels any measure of initial tolerance or cultural similarity, you miss out on a lot of history.