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Tinto Talks #63 - 14th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will be taking a look at three of the religions born in India: Hinduism, Jainism, and Sikhism, which in the game are part of the Dharmic religion group:
Dharmic.jpg

As usual, take all UI, 2D and 3D art as WIP.

So let’s start by taking a look at the religious divide of India at the start of the game, in 1337:
Indian Religions.jpg

We now have an interesting feature when in the religious map mode, as by hovering over a certain religion in the religious breakdown, you can check the religious spread and heatmap of that said religion. So let’s check Hinduism and Jainism, as both are present in 1337:
Hinduism spread.jpg

Jainism spread.jpg

You also have these tooltips with the most important characteristics and the flavour of each religion, as we saw in previous Tinto Talks.



Hinduism

Hinduism1.jpg

Hindu Panel.jpg

The first thing to talk about is the Hindu branches, which appear as an icon and action in the panel:
Hindu Branch1.jpg

There are four branches in Hinduism, and each one is represented through an International Organization. Here you can see all:
Hindu Branches.jpg

When you click on a Hindu IO, each has its own panel:
Hindu Branch3.jpg

In ‘Agenda’ (which is a common building block for different religions), you have a religious law set for each branch, that defines its mechanics:
Hindu Laws.jpg

This is the one for Vaishnavism:
Hindu Laws2.jpg

Vaishnavism2.jpg

Don't you love nested tooltips? Because we do!

It allows the country to activate as many as 3 Avatars of the god Vishnu, depending on having access to one of its holy sites:
Activate Avatar.jpg

And each avatar has different modifiers attached to it:
Narasimha.jpg

Captura de pantalla 2025-05-14 125751.jpg

Matsya.jpg

Shaivism:
Shaivism.jpg

Self Control.jpg

You can gain or lose Self Control by performing these actions, and also some random events:
Self Control Actions.jpg

Perform Yoga.jpg

Indulge in Feasts.jpg

Discard Wordly Possesions.jpg

Indulge in Bloodbath.jpg

Shaktism:
Shaktism.jpg

This only allows you to have 1 Avatar active at any time of 10 possible, 5 in peace times and 5 in war times. By declaring war or stopping being at war makes you change from an avatar of one category to an avatar of the other. These avatars are randomly assigned, but you can change/reroll them using the Change Avatar action. The main difference with Vaishnavism is that you don’t need to have access to a holy site:
Avatar.jpg

Change Avatar.jpg

Change Avatar2.jpg

Candi.jpg

And Smartism:
Smartism.jpg

In Smartism, you want to have all 5 gods favored equally, or otherwise they will give you negative modifiers. You can favor one over the others, though, to get more benefits from that one, at the cost of getting these negative modifiers from the others:
Smartism.jpg

Smartism2.jpg

Favor God.jpg

Favor God2.jpg

Ganesa.jpg



Jainism
Jainism.jpg

Santara is the only country that starts with Jainism as its state religion.

Jainism starts with interesting features, as seen in the previous tooltip, of which the disallowance to declare wars without a Casus Belli might be the most striking one, as portraying the peaceful and self-defensive nature of this religion. On top of that, they also have a kind of similar behavior to Shaivism, with the addition of the Karma mechanics on top of it:
Jainism panel.jpg

Karma1.jpg

Karma2.jpg



Sikhism

Sikhism is a religion that is not present at the start of the game, but it will be able to appear after 1509 in a country that is either Hindu or Muslim, with locations of the other religion. If that happens, the following event will trigger:
Sikhism starting event.png

That will not only enable the religion and convert some pops, but will also create a unique building, the Gurgaddi, to serve as the seat of a newly created building-based country led by the Guru himself. The second option of the event allows you to convert to the newly created religion, while the third option allows you to continue playing as the newly created Sikh country.
Sikhism event b.png

Sikhism event c.png

Gurgaddi.png

Sikhism.png

The new country will have a unique government reform, with a unique heir selection making it so that basically only the gurus are able to be the rulers of it.
Guru Leadership.png

When Sikhism appears, it will also create a new IO, and the first guru will cement its bases. There will be further events for each of the historical Sikh gurus, and each subsequent guru that appears will add to that IO, configuring the religion with further teachings.
Guru teachings.png

Teachings policies.png

All Guru Teachings 1.png

All Guru Teachings 2.png


A final common feature for all of them are Holy Sites. There are several different holy sites for all religions and (and branches, in the case of Hinduism):
Vaishnavism Holy Sites.jpg

Holy Sites.jpg

These are examples of holy sites associated with the Vaishnavism branch of Hinduism.

And that’s all for today! We will continue taking a look at the Indian content this Friday, with a Tinto Flavour for the Sultanate of Delhi, and on Monday, with the Tinto Maps Feedback for the region of India. And next Wednesday, @SaintDaveUK will be hosting the Tinto Talks, with the topic being Unit Graphics. Cheers!
 
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I don't know enough about the dogma to say anything about it, but is it just me or does it feel a little strange and out of place to suddenly have these Crusader Kings-style personal elements such as discarding your possessions and performing yoga? Are we playing as the country or the monarch, then? I suppose it could be the entire population being forced to do so, but that's less "self-control" and more controlling others. I checked the Catholicism talk and didn't see anything about reciting a rosary or something.
 
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Does karma follow an equilibrium system? or is the monthly modifiers static until other actions are taken?
Equilibrium system, it tends to 0.
 
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Will Sikhism be able to sppear in an Indonesian country like Majapahit, similar to EU4?
Yes, it currently doesn't have a geographical scope.
 
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"All its beliefs and practices understood as explanations of the Dharma, the cosmic order, it stems from the ancient Vedic literature".

This sounds really wonky to read. May I suggest you rewrite it as

"It stems from ancient Vedic literature, with all its beliefs and practices understood as explanations of the Dharma, the cosmic order."

Unless you mean something else entirely (all the more important to change the wording, in that case).
 
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Will there be a Sikh Empire/Khalsa Raj formable?
Not as of now, but since we still have to add some more, it's a potential addition.
 
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Compared to what we've seen with Catholicism, the mechanics for Dharmic religions feel a bit too gamey. The self-control actions, for example, just come across as “click here, pay this, get a bonus”... not very immersive. And who’s actually doing the yoga here? Is it the ruler, or just the country as a whole somehow?
In the end, these mechanics feel more like something out of EU4, which makes them stand out in a weird way given that EU5 seems to be going for a more in-depth simulation overall.
 
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Actually no wait, I'm a bit confused.

Vishnu gets +3 enabled avatars (so you get more modifiers), but you need holy sites
Shiva gets Self Control (and no avatars)
Shakti gets 5 peace and 5 war avatars (you only choose one), but you don't need holy sites
Smartism gets five gods and you can either balance them out or favor one of them

So, like. Why is this a single religion? There is clearly a case for differing them.
 
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So this is cool. Now I got a LOT of comments and questions. So this is probably going to be long.

Hindu Branches

Starting with the branches of Hinduism. You mention the four main ones which is fair enough, but those aren't the only branches of Hinduism. There is also Saurism, Ganapatya, Kaumaram, Dattatreya, and Sant Mat. The last two are sometimes included as their own branch outright and other times considered a part off Vaishnavism. More over they are branches of Hinduism that emerged in India during this time thanks to the whole Bhakti movement. There is also Indonesian Hinduism but I admit I am not sure if that would be its own branch entirely or if they adhered to the other branches of Hinduism.

I also want to bring up the lingyats. Lingyatism that emerged in the Deccan came from the teachings of Basava, and it sometimes is considered part of Shaivism, its own branch of Hinduism, and other times a separate dharmic religion all together. The thing about Lingyatism is that the tradition is very much focused on Equality, as Basava notably was against the caste system. So could go either way in how you include it, but as a tradition that favors equality and is against the caste system(that was one of the things that got Basava killed) this would make for a different playthrough if they became a majority in a country. So basically give me equalist anti-caste devotees of Lord Shiva! :p



Next onto the branches of Hinduism.

Vaishnavism
Okay I do like how you have the various different avatars, Howevr, it is not just ten as the lists of who Lord Vishnu's avatars can flunctate, I think I remember reading there are like 25 different figures who have been classified as Lord Vishnu's Avatars. Still the classic ten Avatars does work I feel.

One thing I do want to know about are the sub traditions within Vaishnavism. Most notably it is the tradition of Krishnaism which starts to take on its own distinct path though it is almost always part of Vaishnavism. Though traditionally Vaishnavism is divided between four Sampadayas of its own, Sri, Rudra, Kumara, and Brahma each of which have their own philosphical traditions and takes on theology. Such as how Sri favors Vishishtadvaita while Kumara follows the Dvaitadvaita school of philoosphy. Beyond the four main traditions there is of course several other traditions that have emerged during this time frame.

So my question here is if the various Vaishnavism Samapadayas will be repersented? Will the various philosophers, saints, and mystics who were important in developing its theology during this time pop up?

Shaivism

Okay this is where I am not quite sure on. So first thing I would if we are keeping this change it less to be about your current ruler and more policies like @ItsBenter posted, so changing it too:

Perform Yoga -> Promote Yoga
Indulge in feast -> Popularize Feasts
Discard worldly possession -> Encourage Voluntary Poverty
Indulge in bloodbath -> Applaud Soldiers' Bloodbath; I would change this to glory or prowess as I am pretty sure they wouldn't openly call bloodbaths bloodbaths, but go with victories, glory, martial prowess.

Beyond that Yoga isn't limited to just Shaivism but to the other traditions as well. I am curious to know why it is just Shaivist here and if other traditions can get them? It should honestly be just part of hinduism.

Shaktism

So I am not sure if I like the whole randomized Avatar thing, though I do like having the different avatars that are supported.

I am wondering if the different sub-traditions of Shaktism, Kalikula, Shri Vidya, Kashmiri/trika(this is a tradition that is shared with Shavisim but it is also tied heavily to shaktism). Will that be reflected at all?

Further will animal sacrifices be repersented for Shaktism? Shaktism is one of the branches that still today will honor the gods via animal sacrifices; animal sacrifices aren't limited to them and other traditions did do animal sacrifices but it is most associated with Shaktism. Maybe make it a country policy or something that affects the price and value of animals like sheep, goats, and water buffalo in their market?

Smartism

Largelyy fine here. So no notes really here on Smartism specifically. :)



Now onto some more misiclinary stuff for hinduism

Monasticism
So in Jainism it mentions monasticism allowed but I did not see that for Hinduism. Hindu monastics have a long and rich tradition. Each of the traditions has monastics of their own tradition and schools of monasticism. I would allow monastaries for Hinduism to reflect this.

Bhakti Movement
So during this time period this is when the Bhakti movement was in high gear and in its zenith. Where you had poet-saints wandering, it was when you had numerous different scholars and philosophers that helped to popularize different philosophical theological schools. where local languages got promoted. I am wondering if this is reflected somehow?

Ishta-devi
One's favored god, there is a lot of local deities throughout hinduism that cross tradition lines; a great example being Lord Murugan who is popular among Tamils of all traditions, and when the Cholas invaded Srivijaya they brought the worship of Lord Murugan with them to Indonesia and south east asia. and that is just one example, there are countless others of local divinities crossing the traditions. I hope that this is some how refected in some manner.

Indonesian Hinduism
As mentioned above I am not sure where Indonesian hinduism fits on the tradition system. Of the branches though my understanding is that Indonesian Hinduism syncretizes with Buddhism far more than the others. Hence why the various empires that formed are sometimes called hindu-buddhist empires. But Buddha is only an avatar of Vishnu in the details shown here. So I am curious to how the syncretism that occured here will be reflected.
 
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Jainism monthly literacy looks juicy, I will always want to be Jain. (Not a complaint I just personally love literacy)
 
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These religion mechanics seem really gamey compared to the whole rest of the game (investing in shifting your country towards a direction progressively)

Felt like there's missed opportunity to tie in societal values here
 
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Please change the colours for Sammitiya and Therevada Buddhism, they're far too close to Hinduism. Especially for Therevada, it's such a small difference for two neighbouring religions.
 
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Ngl, I’m disappointed with the lack of sects. “Vaishnavism” and “Shaivism” were both incredibly varied. Would Tinto be open to further differentiating Hinduism if we provided a list of schools we wanted to see, and the countries that followed them?
 
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