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Tinto Talks #63 - 14th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will be taking a look at three of the religions born in India: Hinduism, Jainism, and Sikhism, which in the game are part of the Dharmic religion group:
Dharmic.jpg

As usual, take all UI, 2D and 3D art as WIP.

So let’s start by taking a look at the religious divide of India at the start of the game, in 1337:
Indian Religions.jpg

We now have an interesting feature when in the religious map mode, as by hovering over a certain religion in the religious breakdown, you can check the religious spread and heatmap of that said religion. So let’s check Hinduism and Jainism, as both are present in 1337:
Hinduism spread.jpg

Jainism spread.jpg

You also have these tooltips with the most important characteristics and the flavour of each religion, as we saw in previous Tinto Talks.



Hinduism

Hinduism1.jpg

Hindu Panel.jpg

The first thing to talk about is the Hindu branches, which appear as an icon and action in the panel:
Hindu Branch1.jpg

There are four branches in Hinduism, and each one is represented through an International Organization. Here you can see all:
Hindu Branches.jpg

When you click on a Hindu IO, each has its own panel:
Hindu Branch3.jpg

In ‘Agenda’ (which is a common building block for different religions), you have a religious law set for each branch, that defines its mechanics:
Hindu Laws.jpg

This is the one for Vaishnavism:
Hindu Laws2.jpg

Vaishnavism2.jpg

Don't you love nested tooltips? Because we do!

It allows the country to activate as many as 3 Avatars of the god Vishnu, depending on having access to one of its holy sites:
Activate Avatar.jpg

And each avatar has different modifiers attached to it:
Narasimha.jpg

Captura de pantalla 2025-05-14 125751.jpg

Matsya.jpg

Shaivism:
Shaivism.jpg

Self Control.jpg

You can gain or lose Self Control by performing these actions, and also some random events:
Self Control Actions.jpg

Perform Yoga.jpg

Indulge in Feasts.jpg

Discard Wordly Possesions.jpg

Indulge in Bloodbath.jpg

Shaktism:
Shaktism.jpg

This only allows you to have 1 Avatar active at any time of 10 possible, 5 in peace times and 5 in war times. By declaring war or stopping being at war makes you change from an avatar of one category to an avatar of the other. These avatars are randomly assigned, but you can change/reroll them using the Change Avatar action. The main difference with Vaishnavism is that you don’t need to have access to a holy site:
Avatar.jpg

Change Avatar.jpg

Change Avatar2.jpg

Candi.jpg

And Smartism:
Smartism.jpg

In Smartism, you want to have all 5 gods favored equally, or otherwise they will give you negative modifiers. You can favor one over the others, though, to get more benefits from that one, at the cost of getting these negative modifiers from the others:
Smartism.jpg

Smartism2.jpg

Favor God.jpg

Favor God2.jpg

Ganesa.jpg



Jainism
Jainism.jpg

Santara is the only country that starts with Jainism as its state religion.

Jainism starts with interesting features, as seen in the previous tooltip, of which the disallowance to declare wars without a Casus Belli might be the most striking one, as portraying the peaceful and self-defensive nature of this religion. On top of that, they also have a kind of similar behavior to Shaivism, with the addition of the Karma mechanics on top of it:
Jainism panel.jpg

Karma1.jpg

Karma2.jpg



Sikhism

Sikhism is a religion that is not present at the start of the game, but it will be able to appear after 1509 in a country that is either Hindu or Muslim, with locations of the other religion. If that happens, the following event will trigger:
Sikhism starting event.png

That will not only enable the religion and convert some pops, but will also create a unique building, the Gurgaddi, to serve as the seat of a newly created building-based country led by the Guru himself. The second option of the event allows you to convert to the newly created religion, while the third option allows you to continue playing as the newly created Sikh country.
Sikhism event b.png

Sikhism event c.png

Gurgaddi.png

Sikhism.png

The new country will have a unique government reform, with a unique heir selection making it so that basically only the gurus are able to be the rulers of it.
Guru Leadership.png

When Sikhism appears, it will also create a new IO, and the first guru will cement its bases. There will be further events for each of the historical Sikh gurus, and each subsequent guru that appears will add to that IO, configuring the religion with further teachings.
Guru teachings.png

Teachings policies.png

All Guru Teachings 1.png

All Guru Teachings 2.png


A final common feature for all of them are Holy Sites. There are several different holy sites for all religions and (and branches, in the case of Hinduism):
Vaishnavism Holy Sites.jpg

Holy Sites.jpg

These are examples of holy sites associated with the Vaishnavism branch of Hinduism.

And that’s all for today! We will continue taking a look at the Indian content this Friday, with a Tinto Flavour for the Sultanate of Delhi, and on Monday, with the Tinto Maps Feedback for the region of India. And next Wednesday, @SaintDaveUK will be hosting the Tinto Talks, with the topic being Unit Graphics. Cheers!
 
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Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will be taking a look at three of the religions born in India: Hinduism, Jainism, and Sikhism, which in the game are part of the Dharmic religion group:
View attachment 1298535
As usual, take all UI, 2D and 3D art as WIP.

So let’s start by taking a look at the religious divide of India at the start of the game, in 1337:

We now have an interesting feature when in the religious map mode, as by hovering over a certain religion in the religious breakdown, you can check the religious spread and heatmap of that said religion. So let’s check Hinduism and Jainism, as both are present in 1337:
View attachment 1298555
View attachment 1298556
You also have these tooltips with the most important characteristics and the flavour of each religion, as we saw in previous Tinto Talks.




The first thing to talk about is the Hindu branches, which appear as an icon and action in the panel:

There are four branches in Hinduism, and each one is represented through an International Organization. Here you can see all:

When you click on a Hindu IO, each has its own panel:

In ‘Agenda’ (which is a common building block for different religions), you have a religious law set for each branch, that defines its mechanics:

This is the one for Vaishnavism:
View attachment 1298578
View attachment 1298579
Don't you love nested tooltips? Because we do!

It allows the country to activate as many as 3 Avatars of the god Vishnu, depending on having access to one of its holy sites:

And each avatar has different modifiers attached to it:

Shaivism:

You can gain or lose Self Control by performing these actions, and also some random events:

Shaktism:

This only allows you to have 1 Avatar active at any time of 10 possible, 5 in peace times and 5 in war times. By declaring war or stopping being at war makes you change from an avatar of one category to an avatar of the other. These avatars are randomly assigned, but you can change/reroll them using the Change Avatar action. The main difference with Vaishnavism is that you don’t need to have access to a holy site:

And Smartism:

In Smartism, you want to have all 5 gods favored equally, or otherwise they will give you negative modifiers. You can favor one over the others, though, to get more benefits from that one, at the cost of getting these negative modifiers from the others:



Jainism
View attachment 1298615
Santara is the only country that starts with Jainism as its state religion.

Jainism starts with interesting features, as seen in the previous tooltip, of which the disallowance to declare wars without a Casus Belli might be the most striking one, as portraying the peaceful and self-defensive nature of this religion. On top of that, they also have a kind of similar behavior to Shaivism, with the addition of the Karma mechanics on top of it:



Sikhism

Sikhism is a religion that is not present at the start of the game, but it will be able to appear after 1509 in a country that is either Hindu or Muslim, with locations of the other religion. If that happens, the following event will trigger:

That will not only enable the religion and convert some pops, but will also create a unique building, the Gurgaddi, to serve as the seat of a newly created building-based country led by the Guru himself. The second option of the event allows you to convert to the newly created religion, while the third option allows you to continue playing as the newly created Sikh country.

The new country will have a unique government reform, with a unique heir selection making it so that basically only the gurus are able to be the rulers of it.

When Sikhism appears, it will also create a new IO, and the first guru will cement its bases. There will be further events for each of the historical Sikh gurus, and each subsequent guru that appears will add to that IO, configuring the religion with further teachings.
View attachment 1298628
View attachment 1298629
View attachment 1298630
View attachment 1298631

A final common feature for all of them are Holy Sites. There are several different holy sites for all religions and (and branches, in the case of Hinduism):View attachment 1298632
View attachment 1298633
These are examples of holy sites associated with the Vaishnavism branch of Hinduism.

And that’s all for today! We will continue taking a look at the Indian content this Friday, with a Tinto Flavour for the Sultanate of Delhi, and on Monday, with the Tinto Maps Feedback for the region of India. And next Wednesday, @SaintDaveUK will be hosting the Tinto Talks, with the topic being Unit Graphics. Cheers!
First of all, the map looks AMAZING, Second... will there be a way to form hybrid religions or hybrid cultures?
 
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I did not know that Sindh was Buddhist. What is the name of they unite India since they aren't Dharmic or Musliim?
Jambudvīpa?
The domains of Ashoka are addressed as Jaṃbudīpa in his edicts. This term, meaning "island/continent of jambu", is the common name for the entire Indian subcontinent in ancient Indian sources. Neighbouring cultures usually addressed this land by a variety of exonyms, such as the Greek Ἰνδῐ́ᾱ (Indíā, derived from the Indus River), which gave most European languages the common name for the subcontinent, including English. Both of these terms are, however, more geographical than political, and in common parlance could include areas outside of the Mauryan control. (quoted from Wikipedia)
 
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I wanted to bring up the lack of any Hindu locations in Assam. The region by this point, albeit still having heavy tribal religious influences and presence, especially given the Ahom migrations, had a large Hindu presence. The kingdoms of the era, and the eras preceding it were Hindus at large, and the Hindu-ization wasn't something that happened recently. Assam wasn't a disconnected part from Northern plains, and it was settled by the eastward migration of Indic peoples soon after Bengal. I find the lack of Assamese representation where they were historically a bit odd of a choice. I hope that is reviewed.
 
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Certain Buddhist communities and scholars/travelers survived into the late Middle Ages and 15th and 16th centuries.

For example, the Mahabodi and Nalanda temples/universities in Bihar were active until the 1400s, so there should be decent numbers of Buddhists around them

There should also be Buddhist minorities in the Hindu states across the south of India, as many fled there during the Muslim conquests, notably in Tamil Nadu

View attachment 1298783

A Tibetan monk mentions the regions Buddhists survived in as: Konkana, Kalinga, Mewad, Chittor, Abu, Saurastra, Vindhya mountains, Ratnagiri, Karnataka

Buddhism also survived in the regions closest to Tibet, especially Nepal, Sikkim, Kashmir and most of all Ladakh (including regions in and around it, such as Gilgit, Baltistan and Swat Valley)


Cuttack in Orissa was another significant centre of survival

View attachment 1298787


Another surviving population of Buddhists was among the Peristani/Kaffirs in Afghanistan (see below)

The Jains should be present in small numbers all across Western India (especially in Cities), as well as in Jharkans, Bihar and Bengal ( the Saraks, which were very isolated from the other Jains)

Also hopefully the Kaffiri people in Afghanistan have properly been changed to Peristani, and they could even get a new Peristani faith, representing their archaic and isolated form of Hinduism, along with some Buddhist pops as well. Their Kalash relatives, which also kept non-Islamic faiths for much longer, could also be added.


The western coast could also get a few more Zoroastrians (and I am once again suggesting representing the Arewordik Zoroastrians in Armenia)
Definitely repost this when the Indian feedback comes out please.
 
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Could be done through an optional setting at game start: "Spawn Sikhism always in Punjab", "Spawn Lutherism always in Germany" etc.
Althrough I don't know how many of historical rule settings they wanna implement...
If the rule page is organized with tab or searchable I don't think it'll be an issue
 
This is really cool! Wanted to point out that person shown for the Sikh faith looks more like a South Indian Hindu monk than a Sikh Guru.
Otherwise great work!

Also is Tirumala/Tirupati a holy site? And is there any special flavor for Vijayanagara owning it/using any of the mechanics there?
 
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Well, the modern synthesis of Advaita is based on the fusion of the gods. The dude who promoted Smartism also promoted Advaita.

And every major tradition has an Advaitic viewpoint. This idea that permeates all the sects. They all accept the authority of the Vedas. Wars were never against a branch of Hinduism (except against the Ajivikas).

Like, yes, they are all distinct in their practices, but certain fundamental philosophies transfer between each other.

@Pavía , could you add both Skanda and Brahman to smartism? Skanda is an important deity, and Brahman is the glue (although not worshipped)
Ok, you do raise a fair point regarding religious wars.
 
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Sammitiya Buddhism in Sindh:
View attachment 1298645

But as we're having the Tinto Maps Feedback on Monday, and we're now back to the work on pop minorities (yay!), any suggestion with specific data of Buddhist populations per region is pretty welcome!
What is the basis for Sindh being majority Buddhist in the 14th century? It was one of the first areas to be islamized and there were probably very few Buddhists left in the region by the starting date
 
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As a Sikh who regularly plays EU4 its great to see a greater level of representation of my religion in EU5, however I have noticed some problems with the way its currently represented.

First and most importantly is the representation of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. He is displayed has a clean shaven Hindu which doesn't make much sense since Guru Nanak Dev Ji advocated for Sikhs to not cut any of their hair. A more accurate image to use for Guru Nanak Dev Ji and all the other Gurus should be based off the paintings of Sobha Singh which is used by most of the Sikh community. Guru Nanak is also given the surname Chattar which is very inaccurate. Guru Nanak and the rest of the Gurus were never called by their surnames, and their is no evidence that Chattar is the surname of Guru Nanak. A more respectful title, which most Sikhs use is Guru Nanak Dev Ji, the more accurate names for all other Gurus can be found on the website SikhiWiki.

Second, I don't think the Gurguddi should be an actual building. In one of the images the gurguddi is shown as the place where the guru resides, however this is incorrect. Although it directly translates to the "Guru's Throne" the Gurguddi more accurately describes the instillation of guruship of successive Gurus. Basically it refers to the succession of Guru's, with the gurguddi day being the day when a Guru attained the Guruship. Instead of the gurguddi building maybe there should just be a provincial modifier to represent the Guru's residence, and Gurguddi could replace the Guru Election reform.

Third, Sikhism is referred to be originating from Hinduism which is not very accurate within Sikh theology. Guru Nanak Dev Ji rejected both Hinduism and Islam and Sikhi was never a sect of Hinduism which is being implied in the tooltip.

This isn't really an issue but I believe that Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be added to the various laws seen in the last screenshot. Possibly in the religious or administrative laws section. Guru Gobind Singh Ji also did major religious and military changes within the religion by creating the Khalsa and is widely considered to be the most militarist Guru considering all of the wars he partook in, so it may be more accurate to place Guru Gobind Singh Ji in the military laws section and put the Khalsa as a choice for one of the laws.

Lastly, the religion should be referred to as Sikhi which is the original term for the religion instead of Sikhism which is more western.

Overall I think you guys did a great job in representing the religion and I cant wait to get my hands on the game and try it out.
 
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This is.... way more flavourful than I imagined it would be good God. As a Shaktist myself I'm surprised to see the inclusion of various avatars of Adishakti included - though I would like to know which 10 are included. I assumed it would be based on the ten mahavidyas but the inclusion of Chandi makes me believe that is not the case.

A small suggestion for flavour regarding Shaktism - I would like there to be a Tantrism vs Vedantism. Say 5 of these avatars (I'd pick Kali, Chinnamasta, Chandi, Tara and Chamunda) would slide the scale towards a tantric form of hinduism, wheres the other 5 (I'd pick Parvati, Durga, Annapurna, Tripura Sundari (Lalitha devi) and Lakshmi) would slide the scale towards a vedantic hinduism. That would be great for immersion and can be a (very gameified, surface-level but effective and immersive) way to depict the Srikula and Kalikula schools of thought without actually doing so.
 
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What religions inspired Sikhism?
Islam and Hinduism as far as my university level understanding goes, or as the Sikhi poster above notes, the west has a colored perspective on the religion. So long story short, the founder found both island and Hinduism (and presumably Buddhism) to be lacking and founded a new faith that picks pieces from other religions. I'd recommend you fact check me on an encyclopedia or something though, this is my base understanding.
 
I think there needs to be more grounded modifiers for the different avatars and other abilities. Something like changing estate loyalties, or demand for certain goods would make sense. Even modifiers such as discipline could work, but what causes choosing a specific avatar to give attrition? It just doesn’t seem to have any real connection to what is happening.

Also Hinduism should probably have specific estate privileges to represent how much a given state adhered to the caste system. For example there should be privileges for which castes are allowed to work in the government. As an example, the Marathas did not enforce Brahmin and kshatriya only in administration, but some Hindu states did. Perhaps a privilege to the Brahmins granting them exclusivity in civil administration could be made which reduce pop promotion speed to Brahmins, and this could also be done for kshatriyas, giving them exclusivity in commander roles, which would grant a similar modifier.

Another thing is that there doesn’t seem to be a representation for the tolerance of Jainism by Hindu rulers. I think there should be a special modifier between Hinduism and Jainism that makes them have near max tolerance of each other, perhaps through an estate privilege or baked into the religions.

Converting Jains as a Hindu state should upset the Brahmins as they are generally seen as being a protected group that do not cause problems. There should probably be an estate privilege for the Brahmins that disallows converting Jains that also makes Jain pops happier.

Hinduism, Jainism, and Sikhism should also have some modifier that makes it difficult to forcefully convert people to them from non-dharmic faiths. Perhaps only allowing pagan pops to convert to them? But it should also be difficult to convert pops away from them.

To represent Jains being a fairly insular community, that didn’t intermingle with other groups much (similar to Jews in Europe), I think they should get a conversion speed malus, as well as an estate influence malus.
 
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I get that Buddhism has its own separate group, but in places like Indonesia , Thailand even in India. Hindu and Buddhist traditions have coexisted for centuries. So personally, I think it makes more sense to include Buddhism under both the 'Dharma' and 'Buddhist' categories. Saying that Buddhism is excluded from 'Dharma' just feels a bit off to me.
 
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The game has a game rule with 4 settings for country religious conversion:
  • Dynamic rules (default)
  • Inside Religion Group only
  • Present in Country
  • Any religion
Here you have an example of converting to another religion, and what are the rules for the Default setting:
View attachment 1298678
Wait, so now the conversion rules will actually be affecting Buddhists separately to other Dharmic religions, if you - say - choose the 'inside religious group only' rule? That's way worse than I thought. I thought the groups only affected opinion, like different religions in the same group liking each-other more, but now you might be treating converting from one of the other Dharmic religions to Buddhism differently because of this artificial separation you've put between Buddhists - who are Dharmic - and others who should be in the same group?



The real question for me now, actually, is why your approach to Hindu denominations is so radically different to how you seem to approach Buddhist Schools. You could avoid a lot of the messiness in your current design you had a single approach you applied to both. The current design is very inconsistent in how you manage religions. You'll make Hindu denominations part of one religion, represented by different IOs, but different Buddhist schools get different faiths entirely?

You could, like you've done for Hinduism, have a single Buddhist religion (Which is part of the Dharmic Group) with separate IOs for the different schools, each with their own laws to govern the differences between them. For example Tibetan Buddhism might get a mechanic to allow for the Dalai Lama. You could even show a Chinese 'three teachings' religion, or whatever you want to call it, as being attached to one of these Buddhist school IOs to represent the link to Mahayana Buddhism.

Otherwise, you should show the Hindu denominations as being separate faiths, like you have for Buddhist schools, add them all to a 'Hindu' religious group like you presumably have for a 'Buddhist' religious group, and have a way to nest religious groups, so that both the Hindu and Buddhist group are part of a larger 'Dharmic' group shared with Jains and Sikhs. Though now you might not have the architecture to do something like nesting religious groups - so maybe that's not possible at this point in development.

Both approaches have downsides as well as upsides, such as the former not allowing you to have multiple Buddhist schools in the same country this way, but choosing just one approach would be far more consistent and coherent. These faiths are, after all, far more similar to one another than they are to others, so it's odd that you portray the split between Buddhist schools as closer to that of Christian denominations - with separate faiths for all - rather than being similar to Hindu denominations, which you show under a single faith.

Obviously we have yet to see the full scope of what you've done with Buddhism, and full feedback on the portrayal will have to wait until that post, but the edges we've seen are very - very rough.
 
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As a Sikh who regularly plays EU4 its great to see a greater level of representation of my religion in EU5, however I have noticed some problems with the way its currently represented.

First and most importantly is the representation of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. He is displayed has a clean shaven Hindu which doesn't make much sense since Guru Nanak Dev Ji advocated for Sikhs to not cut any of their hair. A more accurate image to use for Guru Nanak Dev Ji and all the other Gurus should be based off the paintings of Sobha Singh which is used by most of the Sikh community. Guru Nanak is also given the surname Chattar which is very inaccurate. Guru Nanak and the rest of the Gurus were never called by their surnames, and their is no evidence that Chattar is the surname of Guru Nanak. A more respectful title, which most Sikhs use is Guru Nanak Dev Ji, the more accurate names for all other Gurus can be found on the website SikhiWiki.

Second, I don't think the Gurguddi should be an actual building. In one of the images the gurguddi is shown as the place where the guru resides, however this is incorrect. Although it directly translates to the "Guru's Throne" the Gurguddi more accurately describes the instillation of guruship of successive Gurus. Basically it refers to the succession of Guru's, with the gurguddi day being the day when a Guru attained the Guruship. Instead of the gurguddi building maybe there should just be a provincial modifier to represent the Guru's residence, and Gurguddi could replace the Guru Election reform.

Third, Sikhism is referred to be originating from Hinduism which is not very accurate within Sikh theology. Guru Nanak Dev Ji rejected both Hinduism and Islam and Sikhi was never a sect of Hinduism which is being implied in the tooltip.

This isn't really an issue but I believe that Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be added to the various laws seen in the last screenshot. Possibly in the religious or administrative laws section. Guru Gobind Singh Ji also did major religious and military changes within the religion by creating the Khalsa and is widely considered to be the most militarist Guru considering all of the wars he partook in, so it may be more accurate to place Guru Gobind Singh Ji in the military laws section and put the Khalsa as a choice for one of the laws.

Lastly, the religion should be referred to as Sikhi which is the original term for the religion instead of Sikhism which is more western.

Overall I think you guys did a great job in representing the religion and I cant wait to get my hands on the game and try it out.
I myself am not Sikh but my wife is so I was trying to discuss this with her but it is very difficult when she has no interest in strategy games haha.

I am interested in your perspective on the Gurguddi being playable, I know that in EU5 you do not play as a person you play as the 'spirit of the nation' but my wife expressed concern about having control over the Gurus. I think perhaps it would be best that you do not have the option to play as the Gurguddi but it is still there as a bbc.

Secondly, with regards to Guru Gobind Singh Ji and the Khalsa, making the Khalsa an option to choose seems weird given how important the Khalsa is in Sikhi. Also we have not seen what is coded for the Khalsa so I think perhaps maybe reserving judgement until we know more is wise.