Anyone else feel that genetics lost even in their own DLC?

[MerchantPepe]

After playing and running through genetics i still feel like it plays strictly worse than stuff from machine age DLC. This, along with the fact that psionic builds are apparently busted because of the way psy corps works with job productivity increases where you can make tons of resources. I feel like paradox were just trying to do somthing like machine age with genetics without making genetics good, unlike with many synthetic age routes, where all of them are pretty bonkers boosts.

 

[Twogs]

After playing and running through genetics i still feel like it plays strictly worse than stuff from machine age DLC. This, along with the fact that psionic builds are apparently busted because of the way psy corps works with job productivity increases where you can make tons of resources. I feel like paradox were just trying to do somthing like machine age with genetics without making genetics good, unlike with many synthetic age routes, where all of them are pretty bonkers boosts.

Still don't get why people go on about psy build when cybernetic build with enforcers has infinite (yes infinite) scaling.

Anyway, there are also plenty of strong bio builds, and some builds have always been busted.

 

[RoverStorm]

1. Comparing intended game mechanics to massive oversights is not really a fair comparison.

2. Try purity ascension, especially Megacorp.

3. Cybernetics "lost" their expansion far harder since a lot of the cool modifiers is absolutely pure RNG if they get it, and not in the shroud way where you can reroll, in the "one very small chance per game to roll an event that gives a whopping +25% empire trade permanently".

And Cybernetics is still pretty cool and useful.

4. The Psy build is blown out of proportions by youtubers. There are far more gamebreaking builds, such as cybernetic enforcers.

 

[HP Delron]

What? Expansion content is not some kind of weird zero-sum competition where one playstyle "Wins" and another "Loses". If we're talking optimal here in the sense of the most powerful, there will always be one and exactly one "correct" way to play and that isn't always going to involve the most recent content.

What matters more is that the content gives more ways to play and/or increases the number of people who enjoy the options being changed.

 

[Thiend]

Genetic overall looks to be in a very good place. It's a little less ridiculous than Machine and Synthetic ascensions, but as those have clearly needed to be nerfed for a year now that's not a flaw.

Imagine my shock that Montu has put out another video involving a fringe strategy dependent on a specific origin for Psionic and people think it's OP again. I really hope they don't design SotS with junk like this and TotS in mind, or it really WILL lose in its own DLC.

 

[HP Delron]

Imagine my shock that Montu has put out another video involving a fringe strategy dependent on a specific origin for Psionic and people think it's OP again. I really hope they don't design SotS with junk like this and TotS in mind, or it really WILL lose in its own DLC.

That is kind of the cycle these days though.

Content in game is divided into exactly two categories:

1) Whatever the most popular streamer has most recently said is "S Tier" or "Busted" or "How I <Blank> with <Blank> in just <Blank>, <Difficulty Settings> *picture of game character with giant googly eyes photo-shopped on*"

2) unplayable garbage!!!1111! y is it even in teh gaem ! wtf <game developer>, this game is scam.

 

[Adaman5280]

That is kind of the cycle these days though.

Content in game is divided into exactly two categories:

1) Whatever the most popular has most recently said is "S Tier" or "Busted" or "How I <Blank> with <Blank> in just <Blank>, <Difficulty Settings> *picture of game character with giant googly eyes photo-shopped on*"

2) unplayable garbage!!!1111! y is it even in teh gaem ! wtf <game developer>, this game is scam.

True, and its totally a fun killer. I've always hated this about the community, both content creators and players. Constantly exploiting the new "meta" and demanding it be aggressively balanced to fit some competitive multiplayer standard just because they found a way to game the system in some goofy way that nobody is ever gonna replicate because lets be honest, playing that way is boring. You'll maybe get some fun out of it one time, get bored, and move on.

Aside from fixing major balance issues that impact the core gameplay loop like the issue the OP referred to (psy oversight) taking "balancing" to the extreme that this community does is just so unnecessary. The game is probably mostly played single player and multiplayer games can set whatever rules they want so who cares..

So many neat things just thrown to the trash all because a few people cried and complained that when they combine it with some gamey strat its too strong )':

I know I'm whining and crying myself at this point but Jesus people can the rest of us have fun too? Why are we meta balancing in a largely single player map painter?

 

[MerchantPepe]

What? Expansion content is not some kind of weird zero-sum competition where one playstyle "Wins" and another "Loses". If we're talking optimal here in the sense of the most powerful, there will always be one and exactly one "correct" way to play and that isn't always going to involve the most recent content.

What matters more is that the content gives more ways to play and/or increases the number of people who enjoy the options being changed.

Im talking "lost" as in it didnt get a comparable boost and still feels like the weaker of the ascentions. I like the stuff the did with the ascention and think its fun, but i thought that it would get a comparable or at least heavy boost much like machine age did with synthetics. It doesnt feel like that at all. While it is more powerful its still nowhere near the level that machine age gave to synthetics, and when the shroud DLC comes out, i think Genetic ascention will go back to being the weakest one(Assuming the oversight with the psi corps is fixed and i already isnt the weakest), even though it will always be my favorite.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

After playing and running through genetics i still feel like it plays strictly worse than stuff from machine age DLC. This, along with the fact that psionic builds are apparently busted because of the way psy corps works with job productivity increases where you can make tons of resources. I feel like paradox were just trying to do somthing like machine age with genetics without making genetics good, unlike with many synthetic age routes, where all of them are pretty bonkers boosts.

I think you're looking at bugs and mistakes in script migration, and interpreting them as valid balance changes.

Telepaths aren't supposed to go to +1000%; they just haven't fixed it yet.

 

[Drullo321]

After that short time and with all the things working/not working and balanced/not balanced I can't 100% say that (insert any bio ascensions) is stronger/weaker then (insert any other machine age ascension) but

a) Any of the bio ascension pathes is stronger then Genetics was before on its own
b) Additionally depending on your choice, those pathes can solve any of the other issues Genetics had before (managing pop/species, species overview, etc). So aside from judging strength, bio ascension has alot of QoL on its own compared to before.

Other then that I think authorities in general may need a second look. There are some generally useful, even if you tone down their numbers and then there are the awful ones, not only for bio ascension but also for cybernetic and synthetic authorities.

For example compare Organic Syndicate (Bio-Purity MegaCorp) vs Corporate Neurocommerce (Cybernetic MegaCorp). Sure there are things to factor in like bio vs cybernetic in general but the Bio version gets better pops (4 advanced genetic traits + bio automod + 2 negative traits) for 3.5 Trade per Pop vs the Cybernetic variant with worse and more expensive pop + worse authority with some disadvantages (like +20 crime) too with only 1 Trade per Pop.

 

[HP Delron]

II know I'm whining and crying myself at this point but Jesus people can the rest of us have fun too? Why are we meta balancing in a largely single player map painter?

Let's not point fingers at the "competitive multiplayer" folks. This dynamic is alive and well in a lot of games. Just go over to any Rimworld (a strictly single-player colony builder) and mention you build floors in your bases. If nothing else, it'll kick off an amusing screaming match.

Heck if anything strictly competitive multiplayer games often see a fair bit less of this. Which isn't to say people have never got bent out of shape after seeing one too many Lukes in Street Fighter. It's just that if a game's actual purpose is focused on competition winning is winning. Discussions about is or isn't the "Right" way to play can't ever be anything but noise.

You could have zero PvP options in this game and I don't think the discussion would shift that much.

 

[DarkHelmet110985]

Personally, I feel Genetics is better w/ BioGenesis than it was without it. Each path has their own Pro's and Con's. Cloning is the only one that can utilize Clone Vats to their fullest and hence can multiply Pops better than anything in the game(especially with 4 Clone Vats + Genetic Researcher perk from Flexible Tradition I). It also has one of the better Democratic Authorities for those looking to minimize Empire Size such that with the right Flexible Tradition choices can yield -25% Empire Size from Pops(which is nuts). The downside to Cloning is that it has minimal flexibility on what Traits your Pops can have. About all it can do is remove Negative/Vocational Traits and add Positive ones.

In the middle I would put Mutation. Mutation yields 4 Trait Points and 4 Trait Picks(most of the three) and can auto-mod Pops the best. If you're looking for a set it and forget it Tradition, this one is it. Can pretty much add/remove just about any Trait in the game outside of removing Overtuned(feel free to correct me here). Has one of the stronger Flexible Traditions in Environmental Integration and their Government Authorities are alright(Democrat one feels the strongest but its Hive Mind one isn't too bad either).

Purity is arguably the strongest of the three paths bar none and if you want Job Efficiency, then its Oligarchic Authority(Eugenic Hierarchy) is straight up nuts(MegaCorp one isn't too bad either). Hands down has the best Flexible Tradition II in Heightened Abilities and can add/remove most Traits in the game(including Overtuned). The cherry on top for Purity is having the Trait cost on Advanced Organic Traits being reduced by 1, hence Erudite only costs 3 Points(which is huge).

 

[Revengeance_oov]

Genetics is great now, but most of the perks are subtle and wrapped up in the new Authorities and Origins. Pacifist Clone Democracies get -95% empire size from Pops. Purity governments are bonkers. EvoPreds get every positive bio trait in the game.

 

[Drullo321]

Genetics is great now, but most of the perks are subtle and wrapped up in the new Authorities and Origins. Pacifist Clone Democracies get -95% empire size from Pops. Purity governments are bonkers. EvoPreds get every positive bio trait in the game.

No. Pacifist Clone Democracies can get up to -110% empire size from pops, and -100% if you leave out GalCom resolution.

-30% Fan.Pacifist
-15% Beacon of Liberty
-15% Democratic Clone Authority
-10% Flex2 Purity Tradition
-10% Harmony (currently not shown in empire size overlay, but the effect is there)
-10% Domination
-10% Psi Theory (if not materialist, but as Fan.Pacifist you want to go Egalitarian for UA anyways)
=> -100%

and another -10% with GalCom resolution.

 

[Revengeance_oov]

No. Pacifist Clone Democracies can get up to -110% empire size from pops, and -100% if you leave out GalCom resolution.

-30% Fan.Pacifist
-15% Beacon of Liberty
-15% Democratic Clone Authority
-10% Flex2 Purity Tradition
-10% Harmony (currently not shown in empire size overlay, but the effect is there)
-10% Domination
-10% Psi Theory (if not materialist, but as Fan.Pacifist you want to go Egalitarian for UA anyways)
=> -100%

and another -10% with GalCom resolution.

I said Pacifist, not Fanatic Pacifist. Being regular Pacifist with -95% reduction is close enough to 100 while retaining Ideology and Vassalization wars.

 

[DarkHelmet110985]

You're both correct so no need to bite his head off on a misunderstanding. You technically can hit -120 with Clone Tradition via Under One Rule and its Harmonized Society Modifier. Additionally, if you took the Strengthen Government modifiers as opposed to boosting the Luminary, your Civilians are bonkers. Try +1 Unity per 100 Civilians and +1 Edict Fund per 100 Civilians. Tack on Monument(for additional Unity, Amenities and Ethics perks) and perhaps State Academies via Civil Education and you can have some insane Civilian Pops post Civil War. Hard part is keeping the AI at bay while you prepare for the inevitable conflict. Wiki claims to be updated for 4.0 but still has old values for UoR. Has -15% Empire Size from Pops when its -10%. Other values, if memory serves, look to be correct or +75% Egalitarian Ethics Attraction(might be 50% now that I think about it... meh) +5% Happiness and +5 Stability. Not too shabby for UoR if you can win the Civil War in a timely fashion by prepping ahead of time.

Thing is while Cloning can all but wipe out Empire Size from Pops, I think people might take 90% for 30%* Job Efficiency from Eugenic Hierarchy. How much you get is based solely on the total Trait value on your Pops. Positive Trait cost(before reductions so Erudite = 4 when it only costs 3) - Negative Traits = X or Genetic Purity score. My current pops have 12 so would get 30% Job Efficiency if I had Oligarchic Authority or a whopping total of 120% with other sources. Instead, I have Democratic because I wanted Beacon of Liberty for Unity and -Empire Size from Pops(will hit -105% after I grab Balance in the Middle resolution... hard part is passing it ugh). As a result, I get -60% Leader Upkeep and 60% Leader Experience Gain to go with +60% Pop Happiness... which is very useful with unhappy Factions. Outside of that though... mostly worthless since Utopian + Peace Festivals + Happy Factions + Nutritional Plentitude + Surplus Amenities = 100% easy.

 

[ItThatAltersSanity]

Let's not point fingers at the "competitive multiplayer" folks.

You could have zero PvP options in this game and I don't think the discussion would shift that much.

Indeed, this is about player psychology, not game modes.

I know I'm whining and crying myself at this point but Jesus people can the rest of us have fun too? Why are we meta balancing in a largely single player map painter?

You are referring to individuals whose understanding of "fun" is the same as a banker doing whatever it takes to min max a balance sheet. Or an auditor looking through a pile of paperwork to find abberations in the numbers. Some of them are aware there's other meanings of "fun" for other people, some of them are not aware. It's down to company policy to decide what to do with such loud voices.

That's not to say there's no need to consider balance. The yardstick shouldn't be "every possible choice is equally balanced". It should be "will the player get bored because they solved resource scarcity before the end game content is over?"

 

[mergele]

What? Expansion content is not some kind of weird zero-sum competition where one playstyle "Wins" and another "Loses". If we're talking optimal here in the sense of the most powerful, there will always be one and exactly one "correct" way to play and that isn't always going to involve the most recent content.

What matters more is that the content gives more ways to play and/or increases the number of people who enjoy the options being changed.

This. This so much. Eypansions shouln't be for powercreeping something, they should be for making something more fun.
Genetics only "lost out" in its own DLC if other things got more more fun than bio.

 

[WJJellO]

True, and its totally a fun killer. I've always hated this about the community, both content creators and players. Constantly exploiting the new "meta" and demanding it be aggressively balanced to fit some competitive multiplayer standard just because they found a way to game the system in some goofy way that nobody is ever gonna replicate because lets be honest, playing that way is boring. You'll maybe get some fun out of it one time, get bored, and move on.

Aside from fixing major balance issues that impact the core gameplay loop like the issue the OP referred to (psy oversight) taking "balancing" to the extreme that this community does is just so unnecessary. The game is probably mostly played single player and multiplayer games can set whatever rules they want so who cares..

So many neat things just thrown to the trash all because a few people cried and complained that when they combine it with some gamey strat its too strong )':

I know I'm whining and crying myself at this point but Jesus people can the rest of us have fun too? Why are we meta balancing in a largely single player map painter?

This happens in every multiplayer game ever. I'd attribute a large part of the malaise that MMOs currently face to the fact that their remaining player base are all such meta-chasing munchkins that they drive anyone who doesn't want to play the exact way that they do away from the game. Strategy games are no different - a lot of people just want to pwn n00bs, and they think anyone who doesn't want to do that is, well, a n00b.

I think taking Stellaris as a serious competitive game is a joke on the best of days. It's not. It never has been. Even ignoring obviously broken exploits like telepath spam, there have always been some choices that are inherently either very strong or outright oppressive (clone army origin, any trait that increases pop growth/assembly, scion origin, crisis perks, genocidal military buffs, etc.) because they're there for flavor, not to ensure a "level playing field." Likewise there are others that are strictly bad from a competitive viability standpoint (most challenge origins, federation origins, a lot of "flavor of the DLC" origins), and will remain bad purely for flavor. To say nothing of how much in this game boils down to luck in finding good planets, spaceborn resources, choke points, favorable neighbors, etc.

 

[ItThatAltersSanity]

This happens in every multiplayer game ever. I'd attribute a large part of the malaise that MMOs currently face to the fact that their remaining player base are all such meta-chasing munchkins that they drive anyone who doesn't want to play the exact way that they do away from the game. Strategy games are no different - a lot of people just want to pwn n00bs, and they think anyone who doesn't want to do that is, well, a n00b.

This goes well beyond gamers. It is a core part of human behaviour. Fashion, metaphors, uniforms, traditions, memes - all are different words to describe the same phenomenon: humans follow examples. It's a core comfort to follow the lead of the strongest. For players who put that above all else and then want to have some choice, there's very little.