Tinto Maps #6 Great Britain & Ireland Feedback

[livebythecreed77]

The amount of farmlands feels quite low for Ireland, how did you come to that southern Tyrone, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, the Glenns of Antrim, North Armagh and Leitrim are sparse/grassland? Some of the best farmlands I know are in these areas.

One of the reasons why Ulster was heavily planted by the English crown was the great farmlands in these areas.



Edit:
It seems so odd that these too areas here have the same vegetation level. I understand this is not a perfect comparison as its modern day and agriculture has vastly improved since 1337. I can see large swathes of Connacht and Southern Donegal having a similar level of of Sparseness as Sutherland, I cant see why this area is sparse for all the other locations I have mentioned above.

 

[starshot131]

The state of Britain....
(not the first time I've said that)



At this point I'm mostly looking for feedback on attributes of the locations more than shape or number of them.


View attachment 1299485



View attachment 1299487

View attachment 1299488

View attachment 1299489

View attachment 1299490
View attachment 1299491

Please please please
Ayr->flatland (because it's nowhere near as hilly as other "hills" tiles and has a huge settled area that is all flat)

Dundee->fruit (because that area was/is known for fruit production, and jam - look up "three js dundee")

Arbroath->fish (because it's a fishing village, to the point the nickname of the local football team is the lichties, which is a kind of fish. Also accounts for the loss of fish from Dundee)

 

[Antor Seax]

The Province of Ross was the border for a long time between the Jarls of Orkney and the new Scottish kingdom.
View attachment 1303166
Both on eastern "Dingwall" and western Ross is full of Norse names. Historically also in Norse control.
View attachment 1303176
Assynt(Old Norse word meaning 'ridge end), Dingwall( Old Norse þingvöllr) Ross and everything north of this should have norn atleast as an minority in medieval times.

Reasoning involving AI:

The presence of Norse place names north of Inverness, such as Dingwall, strongly indicates significant Norse influence and control in the region during the early medieval period. Let’s break this down with a focus on Dingwall and the broader context of Norse toponyms, connecting it to the Battle of Blàr nam Fèinne and the evidence of Norse presence.
Norse Place Names and Dingwall- *Dingwall*: The name derives from the Old Norse þingvöllr, meaning "field of the assembly" or "meeting place" (þing = assembly, völlr = field). This term refers to a location where Norse settlers held gatherings to resolve disputes, establish laws, and conduct governance, similar to a parliament or court. The presence of a þing in Dingwall is a clear marker of Norse administrative and cultural influence, as these assemblies were central to Viking governance.-

• *Geographical Context*: Dingwall, located in Ross-shire, north of Inverness, lies in the region historically associated with Norse control, particularly under the Earls of Orkney like Thorfinn Sigurdsson, who was active during the time of the Battle of Blàr nam Fèinne (c. 1031). Its proximity to the Moray Firth, a key maritime route, made it a strategic hub for Norse settlers.
• Evidence of Norse Control- *Toponymic Evidence*: Beyond Dingwall, northern Scotland, especially in Caithness, Sutherland, and the Highlands, is rich with Norse-derived place names. Examples include: - *Wick* (from Norse vík, meaning "bay"). - *Thurso* (from Þórsá, meaning "Thor’s river"). - *Sutherland* (from Suðrland, meaning "southern land," as seen from the Norse perspective of Orkney). - Place names ending in -by (e.g., Stornoway, from Stjórnavágr, meaning "steering bay") or -dale (from dalr, meaning "valley") are common in areas of Norse settlement. These names reflect not just settlement but also land management and cultural imprint.-
• *Administrative Significance*: The þing in Dingwall suggests a formalized Norse presence, as these assemblies required a stable community with enough population and authority to enforce laws and settle disputes. This points to Norse control over the region, likely extending from their strongholds in Orkney, Caithness, and Sutherland.- *Archaeological and Historical Corroboration*: While direct archaeological evidence for a þing site in Dingwall is limited, the Orkneyinga Saga and other Norse sources document the Earls of Orkney’s control over northern mainland Scotland. Thorfinn the Mighty, a key figure in the Battle of Blàr nam Fèinne, is recorded as holding Caithness and Sutherland, suggesting his influence extended to areas like Dingwall.
• Connection to Blàr nam Fèinne- *Norse-Scottish Conflict*: The Battle of Blàr nam Fèinne (c. 1031) at Cnoc na Moine, west of Inverness, involved Thorfinn Sigurdsson against Malcolm II’s Scottish forces. The battle’s location in The Aird, not far from Dingwall, places it within a region of Norse influence. The Norse presence in Dingwall, with its þing, supports the idea that Thorfinn’s forces were operating in a region where they had established administrative and military control.- *Strategic Importance*: Dingwall’s role as a þing site indicates it was a center of Norse authority, likely used to organize resources, warriors, and governance. This would have made the region a focal point for conflicts like Blàr nam Fèinne, as the Scots under Malcolm II sought to challenge Norse dominance in northern Scotland.-
• *Cultural Impact*: The persistence of Norse place names, including Dingwall, suggests that Norse settlers integrated deeply into the region, influencing language, governance, and culture. Even after Scottish victories or Norse withdrawals, these names endured, reflecting a lasting legacy. Broader Norse Presence-
• *Extent of Control*: By the 11th century, the Norse, particularly under the Earls of Orkney, controlled much of northern Scotland, including Caithness, Sutherland, and parts of Ross. This control was maritime-based, with Viking longships enabling rapid movement and raids. The þing at Dingwall indicates not just settlement but a structured society capable of self-governance.-
• *Conflict with Scots*: The Norse presence created tension with the emerging Scottish kingdom, which sought to unify its territories. Battles like Blàr nam Fèinne were part of this struggle, with Malcolm II pushing to assert control over Norse-held or contested areas.-
• *Archaeological Gaps*: While place names provide strong evidence, direct archaeological finds (e.g., Norse burials, runestones, or settlements) in the Dingwall area are sparse. This is typical for northern Scotland, where perishable materials and limited excavation obscure the record. However, the toponymic evidence is considered robust by historians.
• Ullapool: The name Ullapool derives from Old Norse Ullabolstaðr, meaning "Ulli’s farm" or "Ulli’s stead" (Ulli being a personal name, bolstaðr meaning farm or settlement). This toponym indicates Norse settlement, as bolstaðr is a common Norse place-name element in areas of Viking colonization, particularly in the Hebrides, Orkney, and northwest Scotland. Ullapool, located on Loch Broom in Wester Ross, is a clear example of Norse naming conventions.

Conclusion:
The Norse place name Dingwall, derived from þingvöllr, is a clear indicator of strong Norse presence and control north of Inverness. The þing suggests an organized administrative center, reflecting Viking governance and cultural influence in the region. This aligns with the context of the Battle of Blàr nam Fèinne, where Thorfinn the Mighty’s forces, likely supported by such regional strongholds, clashed with Scottish ambitions. The abundance of Norse toponyms in Caithness, Sutherland, and Ross, combined with historical accounts like the Orkneyinga Saga, confirms that the Norse exerted significant control over northern Scotland in the 11th century, with Dingwall serving as a key example of their lasting impact.

Alittle off topic and personal but still relevant:
Will end with some Pictures i took visiting the Clan Gunn som years ago. Was connected to them on DNA pages and to my suprise i discovered my fatherline Y-DNA was from Scotland. Came to Norway around 1500-1600Ad according to "FTDNA BIG Y"
Then following the father line it was in Scotland around 600years before it jumped to Norway. So apparently my fatherline came to scotland around 1000ad and stayed 600years before returning. Considering i got connected on the father line to people with surname gunn. I got curious about the clan:
Clan Gunn heritage center:
View attachment 1303229
Clan Gunn Norse connection:
View attachment 1303231
Origins:
View attachment 1303232
Were their castle used to be, before ironically destroyed by Norway:
View attachment 1303233

I think is fair both Ross and Sutherland province should have Norn minority, except for Caithness part that should have majority. And why not?

Please stop posting with enlarged letters, you take up five times the space.

 

[phantasmAgaric]

View attachment 1303343

The amount of farmlands feels quite low for Ireland, how did you come to that southern Tyrone, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, the Glenns of Antrim, North Armagh and Leitrim are sparse/grassland? Some of the best farmlands I know are in these areas.

One of the reasons why Ulster was heavily planted by the English crown was the great farmlands in these areas.

I'm finishing off my own revamp for Irish topography and vegetation so I've been looking into this. The real answer is that Ulster saw essentially no intensive agriculture prior to the plantation in the 17th century – like in much of the rest of Ireland outside Anglo-Norman control, its economy was pastoral and semi-nomadic, with Ulster in particularly being sparsely populated. What there should be more of in Ulster is woods: whilst nearly completely deforested today, pre-plantation Ulster had significant forest cover, with contemporary 17th century maps consistently showing significantly forest cover in the Sperrin mountains and Bann valley, as well as around Lough Neagh. These Antrim, Belfast, Dunluce, and especially Magherafelt locations. The hilly Glenconkeyne and Killetra districts in particular were noted as densely-forested and remote; an important retreat for the Clandeboye – and a future source of timber for the Crown.

As for Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, and southern Tyrone, they all share a common landscape of post-glacial drumlins, relatively low-lying land pockmarked with countless lakes and small hills. This formed a natural barrier to Anglo-Norman settlement and farming – there's a reason the northern limit of the Lordship of Ireland almost exactly matches the start of drumlin terrain between modern Leitrim and Armagh (brown spotting in map below)! Whilst this would later become extremely fertile land, its undulating terrain and naturally waterlogged gley soils made it unsuited to intensive farming until later advances in farming, and particularly the adoption of flax as a cash crop. I think the territory being "wetland" doesn't quite make sense, though – it's better suited for characterising Ireland's extensive bogs in the midlands and west. I'd want some way of representing the initial barriers to agriculture and settlement the landscape posed, and "Sparse" vegetation is a way to do it. Maybe a "drumlins" location modifier here that decreases fertility/development until early 17th century agriculture techs get unlocked could be interesting?

 

[livebythecreed77]

In regards to control

I'm finishing off my own revamp for Irish topography and vegetation so I've been looking into this. The real answer is that Ulster saw essentially no intensive agriculture prior to the plantation in the 17th century – like in much of the rest of Ireland outside Anglo-Norman control, its economy was pastoral and semi-nomadic, with Ulster in particularly being sparsely populated. What there should be more of in Ulster is woods: whilst nearly completely deforested today, pre-plantation Ulster had significant forest cover, with contemporary 17th century maps consistently showing significantly forest cover in the Sperrin mountains and Bann valley, as well as around Lough Neagh. These Antrim, Belfast, Dunluce, and especially Magherafelt locations. The hilly Glenconkeyne and Killetra districts in particular were noted as densely-forested and remote; an important retreat for the Clandeboye – and a future source of timber for the Crown.
View attachment 1303359
View attachment 1303360
View attachment 1303363
As for Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, and southern Tyrone, they all share a common landscape of post-glacial drumlins, relatively low-lying land pockmarked with countless lakes and small hills. This formed a natural barrier to Anglo-Norman settlement and farming – there's a reason the northern limit of the Lordship of Ireland almost exactly matches the start of drumlin terrain between modern Leitrim and Armagh (brown spotting in map below)! Whilst this would later become extremely fertile land, its undulating terrain and naturally waterlogged gley soils made it unsuited to intensive farming until later advances in farming, and particularly the adoption of flax as a cash crop. I think the territory being "wetland" doesn't quite make sense, though – it's better suited for characterising Ireland's extensive bogs in the midlands and west. I'd want some way of representing the initial barriers to agriculture and settlement the landscape posed, and "Sparse" vegetation is a way to do it. Maybe a "drumlins" location modifier here that decreases fertility/development until early 17th century agriculture techs get unlocked could be interesting?
View attachment 1303366

Perhaps an advance for culture groups situated in Ireland and Britain, in the latter half of the game could cause these areas to have higher population limits with these areas could probably account for this maybe? Advances seem so versatile now that we can have region/culture specific advances. Great post though thanks.

 

[livebythecreed77]

In regards to control

I have never seen it used anywhere, though.

I'm happy enough with leaving Gael as Irish. I understand that people consider it a problem since it doesn't have the same meaning as it does post 18th, when it includes descendants of the Old English, but given the majority of Old English were Irish speaking by the 18th century, can't we just assume they were assimilated into Irish culture? Seathrún Céitinn speaks as knowledgebly about ancient Irish history as any true Gael. Surely, we can consider someone like him to have assimilated?

Thinking more on this specifically the second half, If we have the Anglo-Norman/Old English divide in the game represented why not represent it as it was in 1337. Of course people can assimilate into Gaelic culture and vice versa and I'm sure this is represented in the game. So have it so both Anglo-Norman and Hiberno-Gael unify into a Irish culture which in reality is what we have today.

Im sure it will probably be dlc as Ireland is not a super popular area to play in but the dynamics of culture and language and the IOs of the Lordship of Ireland and Ard-Rí, I can see being super fleshed out representing everything we have discussed over 3 different forum posts. I think cultural influence will be a great mechanic trying to pull each side into a Gaelic or Irish direction. I think with how the culture mechanics work as well (at least my understanding of them) it will be easy to assimilate (Hiberno) Gaels into Irish culture and Anglo-Normans into Gaelic culture ( If we win :,) ). I think SaintDaveUK has done a stellar job of representing our land in game and cant wait to get my hands on the game.

 

[phantasmAgaric]

In regards to control

Perhaps an advance for culture groups situated in Ireland and Britain, in the latter half of the game could cause these areas to have higher population limits with these areas could probably account for this maybe? Advances seem so versatile now that we can have region/culture specific advances. Great post though thanks.

I think the best way to simulate this is an event giving England, Scotland, Great Britain, or even an independent united Anglo-Irish Lordship of Ireland an Age of Reformations event or unlock that lets them build an "Irish Plantation" building - perhaps a variant of the Settlement - that attracts accepted culture pops from the metropole, and rapidly increases development in underpopulated, low development areas, as well as boosting the productivity of agricultural outputs.

 

[livebythecreed77]

I think the best way to simulate this is an event giving England, Scotland, Great Britain, or even an independent united Anglo-Irish Lordship of Ireland an Age of Reformations event or unlock that lets them build an "Irish Plantation" building - perhaps a variant of the Settlement - that attracts accepted culture pops from the metropole, and rapidly increases development in underpopulated, low development areas, as well as boosting the productivity of agricultural outputs.

Id largely agree but surely there would also be a Gaelic/Irish equivalent to this as well to develop the land, That could possibly invite settlers from the Highlands or Isles or other high location Gaelic locations to settle in sparsely populated lands? It would be weird to only limit everyone else to develop these lands no?

 

[macd21]

To me it is like naming Ruthenian culture as Malorussian because that is what another group called them. I think its sort of ridiculous.

I don’t think that comparison holds up. “Malorussian” isn’t a term in common usage today, while “Irish” is, and one commonly used to describe the Gaelic culture of the time. The logic isn’t “call them Irish because that’s what the Old English called them”, it’s “call them Irish because that’s what we call ourselves today, and how we often describe the culture of the period”.

 

[livebythecreed77]

I don’t think that comparison holds up. “Malorussian” isn’t a term in common usage today, while “Irish” is, and one commonly used to describe the Gaelic culture of the time. The logic isn’t “call them Irish because that’s what the Old English called them”, it’s “call them Irish because that’s what we call ourselves today, and how we often describe the culture of the period”.

Malorussian is absolutely used today, as a justification of the war in the Ukraine today, not getting into the politics of it but it is absolutely used today. Irish was not used by the native people that lived there at the time rather a different people who somewhat assimilated into Gaelic culture. As shown many times, an Anglo Norman Lord calls himself Irish as something distinct from the people who lived here, and yet thats what we call the culture of the people of the whole Island? The Anglo Norman Lord (Gerald Earl of Desmond writting in 1335-1389) who called himself "Éireannach" and specifically not Gael/Gaelic. Would suggest the Anglo-Normans saw themselves as Irish while the native people did not see it this way. We call ourselves this today as the two cultures have melded together and after 100s of years of English domination of this Island as a result. There is plenty of modern day examples where we use Gael/Gaelic to describe things such as a Gaeltacht, the GAA (CLG) and Gaeilge. Even writters of the last century and people died for a "Free and Gaelic Ireland".

To me why even have an Anglo-Norman culture represented on the map if we are all Irish? The native people of the Island referred to themselves as Gael I just do not see what is the problem with accurately depicting what is the correct culture of the people living here. Ill throw the passage down at the bottom if you want to read as evidence.

It's not a hill I am dying on just a presentation of the facts of the matter and if it's heard it's heard, if not it is not.

 

[macd21]

Malorussian is absolutely used today, as a justification of the war in the Ukraine today, not getting into the politics of it but it is absolutely used today. Irish was not used by the native people that lived there at the time rather a different people who somewhat assimilated into Gaelic culture. As shown many times, an Anglo Norman Lord calls himself Irish as something distinct from the people who lived here, and yet thats what we call the culture of the people of the whole Island? The Anglo Norman Lord (Gerald Earl of Desmond writting in 1335-1389) who called himself "Éireannach" and specifically not Gael/Gaelic. Would suggest the Anglo-Normans saw themselves as Irish while the native people did not see it this way. We call ourselves this today as the two cultures have melded together and after 100s of years of English domination of this Island as a result. There is plenty of modern day examples where we use Gael/Gaelic to describe things such as a Gaeltacht, the GAA (CLG) and Gaeilge. Even writters of the last century and people died for a "Free and Gaelic Ireland".

To me why even have an Anglo-Norman culture represented on the map if we are all Irish? The native people of the Island referred to themselves as Gael I just do not see what is the problem with accurately depicting what is the correct culture of the people living here. Ill throw the passage down at the bottom if you want to read as evidence.

It's not a hill I am dying on just a presentation of the facts of the matter and if it's heard it's heard, if not it is not.

View attachment 1303536
View attachment 1303537

I didn’t say Malorussian isn’t used today, I said it’s not in common usage, unlike “Irish”, which is. It’s also not a controversial term. Regardless of why we call ourselves Irish today it’s the term we use. I think creating a brand new term like “Hiberno-Gael”, something that is not used outside the context of the game, would be a little weird, especially as we already have a term we use to describe the Hiberno-Gael culture: Irish. I think that the Anglo-Normans once used that term to describe themselves isn’t really relevant, as they’re not the ones who will be playing the game.

 

[riadach]

I didn’t say Malorussian isn’t used today, I said it’s not in common usage, unlike “Irish”, which is. It’s also not a controversial term. Regardless of why we call ourselves Irish today it’s the term we use. I think creating a brand new term like “Hiberno-Gael”, something that is not used outside the context of the game, would be a little weird, especially as we already have a term we use to describe the Hiberno-Gael culture: Irish. I think that the Anglo-Normans once used that term to describe themselves isn’t really relevant, as they’re not the ones who will be playing the game.

I think Anglo-Normans were more inclined to use the term Irelandman and when Gearóid Iarla called himself Éireannach, Irelandman was the word he was translating, not Irishman.

 

[livebythecreed77]

I didn’t say Malorussian isn’t used today, I said it’s not in common usage, unlike “Irish”, which is. It’s also not a controversial term. Regardless of why we call ourselves Irish today it’s the term we use. I think creating a brand new term like “Hiberno-Gael”, something that is not used outside the context of the game, would be a little weird, especially as we already have a term we use to describe the Hiberno-Gael culture: Irish. I think that the Anglo-Normans once used that term to describe themselves isn’t really relevant, as they’re not the ones who will be playing the game.

Of course it is relevant, a foreign group of people coined a term for themselves so we name the whole culture of people after that? Seems backwards to me. And sure we still use the term Gael today just as much so now what? Its not the Cumann Lúthchleas Éireannach, or a Éireanntacht? Why is that?

Again the actual people who lived here before and during the Anglo-Norman invasion referred to themselves as Gaels and you just ignore that. And was a term in common usage to refer to the everyone here well past the length of the game.

 

[phantasmAgaric]

Id largely agree but surely there would also be a Gaelic/Irish equivalent to this as well to develop the land, That could possibly invite settlers from the Highlands or Isles or other high location Gaelic locations to settle in sparsely populated lands? It would be weird to only limit everyone else to develop these lands no?

I think it would be interesting and fun to give a Gaelic Ireland a way to develop Ulster, especially in the context of some kind of a modernising move to adapt Brehon law from a rural, semi-nomadic, pastoral society to an increasingly urban, settled, and agricultural one. I'm not sure I'd like the exact equivalent, especially given that you're going from a colonial context where you intend to suppress, exclude, and replace the native population to one where you're looking to develop the land for their benefit.

There's also the complication that whilst there's no legal barrier to a King granting rural lands to outside settlers as new subjects under the feudalism system, that's MUCH harder and more controversial under Brehon law, where every strip of land had its own local clans and families, whose rights to it could not simply be revoked by decree without just cause.

We're getting into alt-history here, though – I'd prefer to make sure we can model everything that actually happened first!

Oh, as a tangent: could Surrender and Regrant be locked to the Age of Reformations, or require the Lordship of Ireland lose significant influence over its Anglo-Irish vassals and seek other forms of support? It was just a little immersion-breaking to see England request it in the mid-14th century when it was a 16th century policy enacted after the Crown accepted their Anglo-Irish earls couldn't be relied on to pacify the Irish themselves.

 

[macd21]

Of course it is relevant, a foreign group of people coined a term for themselves so we name the whole culture of people after that? Seems backwards to me.

Again: no, we name a whole culture of people using the term we use for ourselves today.

 

[livebythecreed77]

I think it would be interesting and fun to give a Gaelic Ireland a way to develop Ulster, especially in the context of some kind of a modernising move to adapt Brehon law from a rural, semi-nomadic, pastoral society to an increasingly urban, settled, and agricultural one. I'm not sure I'd like the exact equivalent, especially given that you're going from a colonial context where you intend to suppress, exclude, and replace the native population to one where you're looking to develop the land for their benefit.

There's also the complication that whilst there's no legal barrier to a King granting rural lands to outside settlers as new subjects under the feudalism system, that's MUCH harder and more controversial under Brehon law, where every strip of land had its own local clans and families, whose rights to it could not simply be revoked by decree without just cause.

We're getting into alt-history here, though – I'd prefer to make sure we can model everything that actually happened first!

Oh, as a tangent: could Surrender and Regrant be locked to the Age of Reformations, or require the Lordship of Ireland lose significant influence over its Anglo-Irish vassals and seek other forms of support? It was just a little immersion-breaking to see England request it in the mid-14th century when it was a 16th century policy enacted after the Crown accepted their Anglo-Irish earls couldn't be relied on to pacify the Irish themselves.

More just the idea the Gaels living there couldn't develop the land only the planters seems insane. Doesn't seem right to me. Doesn't have to be the exact same as the way as how the planters developed the land tbf.

 

[livebythecreed77]

Again: no, we name a whole culture of people using the term we use for ourselves today.

So we should remove cultures like lesser Polish or Occitan because the people refer to themselves today refer to themselves as Polish and Occitan.

 

[macd21]

So we should remove cultures like lesser Polish or Occitan because the people refer to themselves today refer to themselves as Polish and Occitan.

What an odd conclusion to jump to.

 

[Nortrix]

Please stop posting with enlarged letters, you take up five times the space.

Did not know there was a lack of space

 

[livebythecreed77]

What an odd conclusion to jump to.

I believe it's the logical conclusion of your argument. But again not a hill I will die on its fine.. id prefer something else seems that it will be as such.