• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #6 Great Britain & Ireland Feedback

9 September 2024 12 May 2025​


What an exciting week we have had, and best of all I finally get to say the name Europa Universalis V. It still feels weird in my mouth after carefully saying Caesar for what feels like a lifetime.

But lo, the day is finally come for the British Isles feedback thread. This short update was supposed to come out a few months ago, but I just had to teach some of you a lesson. Also I had a lot of other things on, like appearing in the announcement show last week.


Here we see the updated topography:

topography.jpg



The updated vegetation:
vegetation.jpg



Many impassable barriers have been added, for example the various peaks of the Pennines and the Wicklow Mountains. The Shannon also now poses a more significant barrier between east and west Ireland, with only a few crossing points often guarded by stockades.


Here we have the Locations map, bear in mind they are only showing the default English names but many places have Gaelic or Brythonic versions.

locations.jpg




Every country has had a general increase in density.

England, in particular the south, has had a big revamp at Location and Province level to more accurately reflect the historical counties, many of them pre-Norman in origin and many of them still in use today in some form. Westminster as a capital has been killed and rolled into a monolithic London.




Provinces:
provinces.jpg


Areas:

areas.jpg



And political mapmode (with overlord colouring off):
political.png




And Dynasties:
dynasty.jpg


We have added the Earldom of Orkney in the northern isles as a Norwegian vassal. Meanwhile the Palatinate of Durham and Chester have both been promoted from a special set of buildings to vassals under England. Wales has also been limited strictly to the Principality of Wales, with the marcher lords existing as very low control locations under England.

Ireland has had a major rework in terms of locations and tags. Mostly there have been minor Irish chieftaincies added. As always we are grateful to the many suggestions that have come from the forumers.



Culture:
culture.jpg



The most obvious culture change is that English has had Northumbrian split off, to represent the divide between southern and northern dialects and attitudes. A practical example of this is how in the south the English are more friendly to Normans, whereas the Northumbrians hate them (the northern shires still bear the scars of the Harrying of the North). Northumbrians and Scots also spoke a similar form of English in this period, so it helps to set them up as a sort of middleman.

Norwegians in northern Scotland and the nearby North Atlantic have also been split into Norn.


As a bonus, Court Language, showing 3 main worlds: Gaelic, Anglo-French, and Roman Catholic Bishoprics.

court_language.jpg



There have also been some changes to Raw Goods, as you can see here:

raw.jpg





We still have time to make some changes, so let us know what we can do to push this even further towards where it needs to be.

I won’t show Population numbers right now, as it’s pending a proper rework. Among other things, the idea is to reduce the population numbers in England.
 
Last edited:
  • 163Like
  • 76Love
  • 8
  • 5
Reactions:
A sketch of the marcher lordships if they were countries on the current map.
I don't think gameplay will support the intention very well without designing a IO or something, but thats a lot of effort so I can't guarantee this is the direction we will take for release. But it's a conversation starter at least.

A weird thing I notice here is how England, Wales, and Chester, essentially 3 countries representing crown interference, now exist in close proximity in several places. I'm leaning towards merging the Earldom of Chester into the Principality of Wales, maybe moving the capital of that to Chester.

View attachment 1302279

a quick note Dave to say that I would love this to be the direction chosen - are you still open to bribery?
 
  • 6Haha
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
The state of Britain....
(not the first time I've said that)



At this point I'm mostly looking for feedback on attributes of the locations more than shape or number of them.


View attachment 1299485



View attachment 1299487

View attachment 1299488

View attachment 1299489

View attachment 1299490
View attachment 1299491
Game looks great and the historical accuracy very good overall - there's a few locations in Ireland where feedback for shape and number changes could still be worthwhile (I'll make a final post with a detailed map), but also a dozen or so that are just plug-and-play name changes and province/area swaps that work without border redraws or new locations. Only one location in Ireland needs emergency surgery to correct a geography error - Athlone. One location can be removed to benefit everyone- Ardagh should be part of Longford.

With regards to trade goods, Ireland isn't resource rich, but a possible location for Iron in Leitrim's "Iron Mountain" was used through the period, and also has Coal potential in the vicinity. It seems more relevant than Wild Game.

Most provinces are well-structured; the main sections I'd say which are lacking essential detail, in a way that goes beyond splitting locations and zooming in the microscope further, are southeast Leinster and southeast Ulster.
Leinster could do with 3 more locations (Enniscorthy, Arklow, Thomastown), and Ulster could do with 3 new ones (Newry, Portadown, Dromore), and redevelop another (Fews into Tandragee with shape of the territory/baronies of Orior). Only two new tags, in Ulster.
  • New tag Orior/Airthir in Tandragee location (redrawn Fews) in Oriel province, ruled by the Ó hAnluain dynasty. Possibly in control of Newry - or else Newry isn't a location of its own and is just the port of the Tandragee location.
  • New tag Clanbrassil/Clann Bhreasail in Portadown location in Oriel province, carved out of northern Armagh (bordering Dungannon) and northwest Rathfriland, ruled by the Mac Cana dynasty.
The next most relevant addition would be splitting Blarney (East Muskerry) to create Macroom (West Muskerry). This region is important enough for 2 locations but it's currently very low development.

Without changing location borders, these are better names than currently:
  • Fingal = Swords
  • Skreen = Enniscrone
  • Annaghdown = Moycullen
  • Newtownards = Bangor
  • Carbery = Castletownbere
  • Kilrush = Carrigaholt
  • Kilmeaden = Dunhill
  • Killeshandra = Ballyconnell
  • Adare = Askeaton
  • "Athlone" = Ballinasloe
  • "Ballymore" = Athlone
Edit: Athlone is good in the west, I was wrong about that. It's Ballymore that is probably incorrect, because it should be its own tag, Kineleagh/Cinél Fhiachach, and the location named Castletown Geoghegan.

Two province adjustments:
  • Navan belongs to Meath, not Dublin province
  • Kilkenny province belongs to Leinster, not Munster
Land Movement changes:
  • Galway city can't be accessed from Kilconnell; only from Tuam and Athenry, which should also border each other directly.
  • Annaghdown and Castlebar have a land border above Lough Corrib; currently you have to go through Murrisk which is inaccurate.
  • "Ballymore" (AKA the new Athlone) should border Roscommon in addition to the old "Athlone" (tentatively called Ballinasloe).

Development Map Feedback
Could I ask how close to a final draft the development map is? It seems quite stark in Ireland, with a lower baseline than in Britain even between favourable comparisons (eg: Dublin vs Caithness, Liverpool, etc), and a higher variance between locations within Ireland. Eg: A 5-point difference in England and Scotland is 20% to 25% difference, but if a typical Irish location is 11 points, a 5 point difference is close to half.
There's no location in mainland Britain that borders another location with more than double the value, but several in Ireland. And excluding London, no location in Britain is worth triple another, but in Ireland several are.
Dublin is also odd in that it's meant to be trade capital including British locations with more development value than it? The location development of minor tags also aren't consistently balanced against each other (and not due to following historical differences).

Could we get more info on the target development totals/ratios for the island of Ireland and the British nations? That might help precise feedback. And in the map feedback threads, maybe we could get maps where the locations are visible but left uncoloured and with no names or numbers in order to let people paint relevant info into them more easily? That would be especially useful for making development heatmaps with or without the headache of numbers.
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Game looks great and the historical accuracy very good overall - there's a few locations in Ireland where feedback for shape and number changes could still be worthwhile (I'll make a final post with a detailed map), but also a dozen or so that are just plug-and-play name changes and province/area swaps that work without border redraws or new locations. Only one location in Ireland needs emergency surgery to correct a geography error - Athlone. One location can be removed to benefit everyone- Ardagh should be part of Longford.

With regards to trade goods, Ireland isn't resource rich, but a possible location for Iron in Leitrim's "Iron Mountain" was used through the period, and also has Coal potential in the vicinity. It seems more relevant than Wild Game.

Most provinces are well-structured; the main sections I'd say which are lacking essential detail, in a way that goes beyond splitting locations and zooming in the microscope further, are southeast Leinster and southeast Ulster.
Leinster could do with 3 more locations (Enniscorthy, Arklow, Thomastown), and Ulster could do with 3 new ones (Newry, Portadown, Dromore), and redevelop another (Fews into Tandragee with shape of the territory/baronies of Orior). Only two new tags, in Ulster.
  • New tag Orior/Airthir in Tandragee location (redrawn Fews) in Oriel province, ruled by the Ó hAnluain dynasty. Possibly in control of Newry.
  • New tag Clanbrassil/Clann Bhreasail in Portadown location in Oriel province, carved out of northern Armagh (bordering Dungannon) and northwest Rathfriland, ruled by the Mac Cana dynasty.
The next most relevant addition would be splitting Blarney (East Muskerry) to create Macroom (West Muskerry). This region is important enough for 2 locations but it's currently very low development.

Without changing location borders, these are better names than currently:
  • Fingal = Swords
  • Skreen = Enniscrone
  • Annaghdown = Moycullen
  • Newtownards = Bangor
  • Carbery = Castletownbere
  • Kilrush = Carrigaholt
  • Kilmeaden = Dunhill
  • Killeshandra = Ballyconnell
  • Adare = Askeaton
  • "Athlone" = Ballinasloe
  • "Ballymore" = Athlone (more precise location borders are possible but this is a quick fix)
Two province adjustments:
  • Navan belongs to Meath, not Dublin province
  • Kilkenny province belongs to Leinster, not Munster
Land Movement changes:
  • Galway city can't be accessed from Kilconnell; only from Tuam and Athenry, which should also border each other directly.
  • Annaghdown and Castlebar have a land border above Lough Corrib; currently you have to go through Murrisk which is inaccurate.
  • "Ballymore" (AKA the new Athlone) should border Roscommon in addition to the old "Athlone" (tentatively called Ballinasloe).

Development Map Feedback
Could I ask how close to a final draft the development map is? It seems quite stark in Ireland, with a lower baseline than in Britain even between favourable comparisons (eg: Dublin vs Caithness, Liverpool, etc), and a higher variance between locations within Ireland. Eg: A 5-point difference in England and Scotland is 20% to 25% difference, but if a typical Irish location is 11 points, a 5 point difference is close to half.
There's no location in mainland Britain that borders another location with more than double the value, but several in Ireland. And excluding London, no location in Britain is worth triple another, but in Ireland several are.
Dublin is also odd in that it's meant to be trade capital including British locations with more development value than it? The location development of minor tags also aren't consistently balanced against each other (and not due to following historical differences).

Could we get more info on the target development totals/ratios for the island of Ireland and the British nations? That might help precise feedback. And in the map feedback threads, maybe we could get maps where the locations are visible but left uncoloured and with no names or numbers in order to let people paint relevant info into them more easily? That would be especially useful for making development heatmaps with or without the headache of numbers.
Little bit of feedback here on Athlone, which has been raised a couple times: I suggested that the location be west of the Shannon. Whilst today it's part of County Westmeath, that's only been the case since a munipical shakeup in 1898!

Athlone was originally built in the mid-12th century by the O'Conors of Connacht to defend their side of the Shannon after the Anglo-Normans built a bridge across it, and the castle and historic centre are on the Connacht side of the river. This geography was of key importance not only during the conflicts between the Gaels and Anglo-Normans, but later on in the Irish Confederate and Williamite wars: in the former it remained unshakeable until the English landed at Sligo and attacked it from the west, and its location across the river made it a key defensive stronghold of the Jacobites in the latter, requiring one of the longest and most famous sieges in Irish history to capture.

When Roscommon was properly integrated as a County, the barony of Athlone made up the bulk of its southern protrusion between the Suck and west bank of the Shannon. The later suburbs would mostly arise on the more defensible west, along the road key road to Dublin, but these would not be built until much later – for most of the period covered Athlone was a fortified town in Connacht, fought over bitterly between the English and Irish.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Here's a map with my draft of a maximalist/perfectionist Ireland. 11 new locations for a net gain of 10. Total of 35 locations affected in big or small ways.
A lot of respect for those who have to do this for the whole world!
final map of ireland.png

  • #33 Athlone is wrong on my map. The location is correct to be on the west side of the Shannon (though the town itself is right on the river). It should be made part of Roscommon province instead of Galway province.
  • #32 Ballymore probably wouldn't have been under the Pale control. A new tag called Kinaleagh/Cinél Fhiachach ruled by the Mac Eochagáin would be justified. The location name would be better off as Castletown Geoghegan, or maybe Kilbeggan. Possible starting ruler Conchobhar Ruadh Mac Eochagáin (line LC1342.10). Possible starting heir Fergal Mac Eochagáin (Line U1351.8). Those being their years of deaths.
  • #2 Newtownards isn't the right name for this split location. People are right that it's not a good fit for the timeframe and the town is already covered by any location which is named Bangor. However, there is space for a location where the map marks #2. Lisburn historically Lisnagarvey/Lios na gCearrbhach fits well into the space and has prominence. The historical baronies of Castlereagh or the modern Lisburn and Castlereagh local government district roughly correspond to the space a new location tile would make sense, but it would be best to leave it an inland location so that eastern Ulster isn't all coastline. Maybe the Belfast location could be redrawn too so that Antrim can bypass Belfast going south into this new Lisnagarvey location.

  • Fingal = Swords
  • Skreen = Enniscrone
  • Annaghdown = Moycullen
  • Newtownards = Bangor
  • Carbery = Castletownbere
  • Kilrush = Carrigaholt
  • Kilmeaden = Dunhill
  • Killeshandra = Ballyconnell
  • Adare = Askeaton
  • "Athlone" = Ballinasloe
  • "Ballymore" = Athlone
Edit #1: My map is very wrong about Athlone, too much from modern borders. Instead 1) the Athlone tile could be part of Roscommon province instead of Galway, and its town visually distinctive right on top of the river. 2) Ballymore could, perhaps should be a Gaelic tag called Kinaleagh/Cinel Fhiachach ruled by the Mac Eochagáín dynasty. The location of Ballymore could instead be Castletown Geoghegan, or Kilbeggan.

Plus the debatable choice of Clonakilty in place of Kilbrittain; at game start Kilbrittain is 100% valid, but the long-term development in our timeline favoured Clonakilty.
  • Bangor split from Newtownards/Movilla/Blathewic
  • Arklow split from Wicklow
  • Enniscorthy split from Ferns
  • Thomastown split from Kilkenny
  • Macroom split from Blarney
  • Cahersiveen split from Killarney
  • Ballynahinch split from Annaghdown/Moycullen
  • Burrishoole split from Murrisk
Edit #2: I foolishly overlooked Lisburn (historically Lisnagarvey as in Lios na gCearrbhach) as the "Newtownards" location for the zone marked 2 on the map. The coastal location would be Bangor whereas an inland location carved out would be Lisnagarvey. The borders in this post's map aren't good - see a later post or refer to the Lisburn and Castlereagh local government district linked above.
  • Tandragee is Fews redrawn with the borders of the territory of Orior (preserved in the barony system). New tag of Orior.
  • Dromore splits from northern Rathfriland
  • Newry is carved out from southeastern Rathfriland. Alternatively, fudge the border outline and make Newry the location of Orior instead of Tandragee, leaving southern Rathfriland largely intact.
  • Portadown is carved out of northern Armagh and northwestern Rathfriland, corresponding to the Oneilland baronies/Clanbrassil. New tag of Clanbrassil.
  • Armagh is reshaped to exclude Orior and the Portadown area, and incorporate more of the Fews which are not part of Orior.
  • Athlone becomes the current Ballymore location, extending slightly westwards to border Roscommon as well as the old Athlone (Ballinasloe)
  • Ballinasloe is the new name of the location currently called Athlone
  • Roscommon extends southwards to border Athlone/Ballymore
  • Longford absorbs Ardagh
  • Athlone in Roscommon province
  • Ballymore a new tag called Kineleagh/Cinel Fhiachach, location possibly changed either to Castletown Geoghegan or Kilbeggan.
  • Galway city no longer borders Kilconnell; you have to go through Tuam or Athenry approaching from from the east, and those two locations border each other.
  • Castlebar can access West Connacht (Annaghdown, or Ballynahinch) without going through Murrisk. A strip of land between Lough Corrib and Lough Mask connects West Connacht and Castlebar. Both still border Murrisk.
With 10 additional locations, Ireland's ratio of locations to England goes from exactly two thirds to 73.6%. Maybe this simply gives headroom for more British locations, and is counteracted by other negative and historical factors in Ireland, but if Ireland needs to have fewer than 105 locations (average: 800km2, currently approximately 875km2, England 900km2, Wales 922km2), here's my list of the most expendable locations on this map:
  1. Newtownards/Movilla (Because my map is wrong - see above; Lisburn/Lisnavgarvey has more merit.)
  2. Cahersiveen
  3. Arklow
  4. Newry (fudge the borders and fold into Tandragee/Fews as its main location? Or have it develop as Rathfriland's port.)
  5. Burrishoole
  6. Ballynahinch
  7. Ballyconnell
  8. Thomastown
 
Last edited:
  • 1
  • 1
  • 1Love
Reactions:
Game looks great and the historical accuracy very good overall - there's a few locations in Ireland where feedback for shape and number changes could still be worthwhile (I'll make a final post with a detailed map), but also a dozen or so that are just plug-and-play name changes and province/area swaps that work without border redraws or new locations. Only one location in Ireland needs emergency surgery to correct a geography error - Athlone. One location can be removed to benefit everyone- Ardagh should be part of Longford.

With regards to trade goods, Ireland isn't resource rich, but a possible location for Iron in Leitrim's "Iron Mountain" was used through the period, and also has Coal potential in the vicinity. It seems more relevant than Wild Game.

Most provinces are well-structured; the main sections I'd say which are lacking essential detail, in a way that goes beyond splitting locations and zooming in the microscope further, are southeast Leinster and southeast Ulster.
Leinster could do with 3 more locations (Enniscorthy, Arklow, Thomastown), and Ulster could do with 3 new ones (Newry, Portadown, Dromore), and redevelop another (Fews into Tandragee with shape of the territory/baronies of Orior). Only two new tags, in Ulster.
  • New tag Orior/Airthir in Tandragee location (redrawn Fews) in Oriel province, ruled by the Ó hAnluain dynasty. Possibly in control of Newry.
  • New tag Clanbrassil/Clann Bhreasail in Portadown location in Oriel province, carved out of northern Armagh (bordering Dungannon) and northwest Rathfriland, ruled by the Mac Cana dynasty.
The next most relevant addition would be splitting Blarney (East Muskerry) to create Macroom (West Muskerry). This region is important enough for 2 locations but it's currently very low development.

Without changing location borders, these are better names than currently:
  • Fingal = Swords
  • Skreen = Enniscrone
  • Annaghdown = Moycullen
  • Newtownards = Bangor
  • Carbery = Castletownbere
  • Kilrush = Carrigaholt
  • Kilmeaden = Dunhill
  • Killeshandra = Ballyconnell
  • Adare = Askeaton
  • "Athlone" = Ballinasloe
  • "Ballymore" = Athlone (more precise location borders are possible but this is a quick fix)
Two province adjustments:
  • Navan belongs to Meath, not Dublin province
  • Kilkenny province belongs to Leinster, not Munster
Land Movement changes:
  • Galway city can't be accessed from Kilconnell; only from Tuam and Athenry, which should also border each other directly.
  • Annaghdown and Castlebar have a land border above Lough Corrib; currently you have to go through Murrisk which is inaccurate.
  • "Ballymore" (AKA the new Athlone) should border Roscommon in addition to the old "Athlone" (tentatively called Ballinasloe).

Development Map Feedback
Could I ask how close to a final draft the development map is? It seems quite stark in Ireland, with a lower baseline than in Britain even between favourable comparisons (eg: Dublin vs Caithness, Liverpool, etc), and a higher variance between locations within Ireland. Eg: A 5-point difference in England and Scotland is 20% to 25% difference, but if a typical Irish location is 11 points, a 5 point difference is close to half.
There's no location in mainland Britain that borders another location with more than double the value, but several in Ireland. And excluding London, no location in Britain is worth triple another, but in Ireland several are.
Dublin is also odd in that it's meant to be trade capital including British locations with more development value than it? The location development of minor tags also aren't consistently balanced against each other (and not due to following historical differences).

Could we get more info on the target development totals/ratios for the island of Ireland and the British nations? That might help precise feedback. And in the map feedback threads, maybe we could get maps where the locations are visible but left uncoloured and with no names or numbers in order to let people paint relevant info into them more easily? That would be especially useful for making development heatmaps with or without the headache of numbers.
As for the development disparity: I think it's appropriate, and could stand to be more stark than it is. Ireland outside of the lordship was a pastoral, semi-nomadic society. There were monastic communities, forts, and churches, but almost nothing in the way of permanent towns and cities: the few that were under Irish control were either built by the Anglo-Normans and then reconquered (e.g. Sligo, later Enniscorthy and Nenagh), or large monastic/church settlements (e.g. Armagh, Tuam). Meanwhile, Anglo-Norman–controlled lands had numerous English-style walled cities and towns, as well as permanent farms and manors. In terms of what the game models with development, it *was* far more developed.

The starting setup should reflect this asymmetry, but also give the Irish tools to thrive regardless. Irish territory should be much harder to conquer and Irish clans should be able to mobilise far more of their population much more cheaply, and profit from cattle raids and extract black rents from the more developed farms and cities.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Here's a map with my draft of a maximalist/perfectionist Ireland. 11 new locations for a net gain of 10. Total of 35 locations affected in big or small ways.
A lot of respect for those who have to do this for the whole world!

View attachment 1304888

  • Fingal = Swords
  • Skreen = Enniscrone
  • Annaghdown = Moycullen
  • Newtownards = Bangor
  • Carbery = Castletownbere
  • Kilrush = Carrigaholt
  • Kilmeaden = Dunhill
  • Killeshandra = Ballyconnell
  • Adare = Askeaton
  • "Athlone" = Ballinasloe
  • "Ballymore" = Athlone
Plus the debatable choice of Clonakilty in place of Kilbrittain; at game start Kilbrittain is 100% valid, but the long-term development in our timeline favoured Clonakilty.
  • Bangor split from Newtownards/Movilla
  • Arklow split from Wicklow
  • Enniscorthy split from Ferns
  • Thomastown split from Kilkenny
  • Macroom split from Blarney
  • Cahersiveen split from Killarney
  • Ballynahinch split from Annaghdown (Moycullen)
  • Burrishoole split from Murrisk
  • Tandragee is Fews redrawn with the borders of the territory of Orior (preserved in the barony system). New tag of Orior.
  • Dromore splits from northern Rathfriland
  • Newry is carved out from southeastern Rathfriland. Alternatively, fudge the border outline and make Newry the location of Orior instead of Tandragee, leaving southern Rathfriland largely intact.
  • Portadown is carved out of northern Armagh and northwestern Rathfriland, corresponding to the Oneilland baronies/Clanbrassil. New tag of Clanbrassil.
  • Armagh is reshaped to exclude Orior and the Portadown area, and incorporate more of the Fews which are not part of Orior.
  • Athlone becomes the current Ballymore location, extending slightly westwards to border Roscommon as well as the old Athlone (Ballinasloe)
  • Ballinasloe is the new name of the location currently called Athlone
  • Roscommon extends southwards to border Athlone/Ballymore
  • Longford absorbs Ardagh
  • Galway city no longer borders Kilconnell; you have to go through Tuam or Athenry approaching from from the east, and those two locations border each other.
  • Castlebar can access West Connacht (Annaghdown, or Ballynahinch) without going through Murrisk. A strip of land between Lough Corrib and Lough Mask connects West Connacht and Castlebar. Both still border Murrisk.

With 10 additional locations, Ireland's ratio of locations to England goes from exactly two thirds to 73.6%. Maybe this simply gives headroom for more British locations, and is counteracted by other negative and historical factors in Ireland, but if Ireland needs to have fewer than 105 locations (average: 800km2, currently approximately 875km2, England 900km2, Wales 922km2), here's my list of the most expendable locations on this map:
  1. Cahersiveen
  2. Arklow
  3. Newry (fudge the borders and fold into Tandragee/Fews as its main location)
  4. Burrishoole
  5. Ballyconnell
  6. Ballynahinch
  7. Newtownards/Movilla
  8. Thomastown
I don't like the borders of your proposed Bangor, Newry, or Portadown locations.

And Ards: didn't exist at game start, and; you had to mangle the borders of your new location to fit it in.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
Little bit of feedback here on Athlone, which has been raised a couple times: I suggested that the location be west of the Shannon. Whilst today it's part of County Westmeath, that's only been the case since a munipical shakeup in 1898!

Athlone was originally built in the mid-12th century by the O'Conors of Connacht to defend their side of the Shannon after the Anglo-Normans built a bridge across it, and the castle and historic centre are on the Connacht side of the river. This geography was of key importance not only during the conflicts between the Gaels and Anglo-Normans, but later on in the Irish Confederate and Williamite wars: in the former it remained unshakeable until the English landed at Sligo and attacked it from the west, and its location across the river made it a key defensive stronghold of the Jacobites in the latter, requiring one of the longest and most famous sieges in Irish history to capture.

When Roscommon was properly integrated as a County, the barony of Athlone made up the bulk of its southern protrusion between the Suck and west bank of the Shannon. The later suburbs would mostly arise on the more defensible west, along the road key road to Dublin, but these would not be built until much later – for most of the period covered Athlone was a fortified town in Connacht, fought over bitterly between the English and Irish.
1748004976852.jpeg

Athlone is the large southern barony in the yellow: it almost precisely matches the current location, and even as late as the late 19th century most of Athlone was in County Roscommon. Putting it in Westmeath would be a massive anachronism and remove what made it so historically important.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
As for the development disparity: I think it's appropriate, and could stand to be more stark than it is. Ireland outside of the lordship was a pastoral, semi-nomadic society. There were monastic communities, forts, and churches, but almost nothing in the way of permanent towns and cities: the few that were under Irish control were either built by the Anglo-Normans and then reconquered (e.g. Sligo, later Enniscorthy and Nenagh), or large monastic/church settlements (e.g. Armagh, Tuam). Meanwhile, Anglo-Norman–controlled lands had numerous English-style walled cities and towns, as well as permanent farms and manors. In terms of what the game models with development, it *was* far more developed.

The starting setup should reflect this asymmetry, but also give the Irish tools to thrive regardless. Irish territory should be much harder to conquer and Irish clans should be able to mobilise far more of their population much more cheaply, and profit from cattle raids and extract black rents from the more developed farms and cities.
Scholarship is developing on this and particular focus is being placed on Lordly residences such as the one on the banks of Lough Cé/Lough Key that serviced McDermott's castle:


As for the claims of Ireland being pastoral, I think as Simms mentions in her essay on nomadry in medieval Ireland, there is a danger of using the situation as obtained in Ulster in the late 16th century to represent the country over the entire period of the middle ages. Warfare was endemic and intense in the 16th (more than in previous centuries which isn't to say they were peaceful) and when that happens, mobile wealth such as cattle becomes a far safer bet for food production than corn which can be burnt as it stands in a field. Similarly, in regards to the claims about Ireland being semi-nomadic. There is no evidence that entire populations moved during transhumance, it would have mainly been herders and young people. Most of the community would have remained in situ to look after crops and the homestead.
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:
The term Ostmen was used between the 12th and 14th centuries by the English in Ireland to refer to Norse–Gaelic people living in Ireland. Meaning literally "the men from the east" (i.e. Scandinavia), the term came from the Old Norse word austr or east. The Ostmen were regarded as a separate group from the English and Irish and were accorded privileges and rights to which the Irish were not entitled. They lived in distinct localities; in Dublin they lived outside the city walls on the north bank of the River Liffey in Ostmentown, a name which survives to this day in corrupted form as Oxmantown. It was once thought that their settlement had been established by Norse–Gaels who had been forced out of Dublin by the English but this is now known not to be the case. Other groups of Ostmen lived in Limerick and Waterford. Many were merchants or lived a partly rural lifestyle, pursuing fishing, craft-working and cattle raising. Their roles in Ireland's economy made them valuable subjects and the English Crown granted them special legal protections. These eventually fell out of use as the Ostmen assimilated into the English settler community throughout the 13th and 14th centuries.
Other terms for the Norse–Gaels are Norse-Irish, Hiberno-Norse or Hiberno-Scandinavian for those in Ireland, and Norse-Scots or Scoto-Norse for those in Scotland.
In academics the Ostmen are considered to be basically extinct in Ireland by this point 1300s. Only a few in Oxmantown potentially as a merchant class.

However, Ostmen became a derogatory term used to describe any foreigner and is only ever mentioned in court documents to accuse and ostracise the marginals of society. It was mostly Scots (both low and highland) that were characterised as Ostmen by the English in the Pale.

I made a long post about this in the original england/ireland map thread. If you want academic references I will go back and give them.

But your claims about how prevalent and important they were is seriously outdated by the games start date. I personally even think Dave is being generous with what's already depicted.
 
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:
In academics the Ostmen are considered to be basically extinct in Ireland by this point 1300s. Only a few in Oxmantown potentially as a merchant class.

However, Ostmen became a derogatory term used to describe any foreigner and is only ever mentioned in court documents to accuse and ostracise the marginals of society. It was mostly Scots (both low and highland) that were characterised as Ostmen by the English in the Pale.

I made a long post about this in the original england/ireland map thread. If you want academic references I will go back and give them.

But your claims about how prevalent and important they were is seriously outdated by the games start date. I personally even think Dave is being generous with what's already depicted.
Greatings
Even if i find the topic interesting i don`t have the time or energy to branch out to ireland at the moment. Sorry.

Ostmen was an example how assimilation takes time. Norse influence left ireland earlier than Scotland obviously, so im not saying there should be norse in Ireland at game start. Just an example og assimilation.

Here are some Sources involving them i have been looking at:

Key Primary Sources on the OstmenIrish AnnalsAnnals of Ulster (c. 5th–15th centuries): This chronicle, compiled by Irish monks, contains detailed accounts of Viking activities in Ireland, including raids, settlements, and interactions with the Gaelic Irish. It references the "foreigners" (Norse) and their descendants, the Ostmen, particularly in Dublin and other coastal towns. For example, it records events like the establishment of Dublin as a Norse stronghold and battles involving Hiberno-Norse leaders.

Annals of the Four Masters (compiled 1632–1636, based on earlier sources): This later compilation draws on older Irish annals and provides accounts of Norse-Gaelic interactions, including the activities of Ostmen in urban centers and their integration into Irish society.

Chronicum Scotorum: Another Irish chronicle that mentions Viking settlements and the role of the Ostmen in trade and warfare, particularly in the 9th–12th centuries.Significance: These annals are critical for understanding the Ostmen’s political and military activities, though they are written from a Gaelic perspective and may emphasize conflicts over cooperation.

Cogadh Gaedhel re Gallaibh (The War of the Irish with the Foreigners)A 12th-century Irish text, likely composed in Munster, this work describes the wars between the Irish and the Norse, including the rise of Ostmen communities. It focuses on figures like Brian Boru and the Battle of Clontarf (1014), where Hiberno-Norse forces played a significant role. Significance: While propagandistic and biased toward the Irish, it provides details on Ostmen leaders, their urban strongholds, and their integration into Irish politics. It’s a key source for Dublin’s Ostmen community.

Scandinavian Sagas and Skaldic PoetryHeimskringla by Snorri Sturluson (13th century): This collection of Norse sagas includes accounts of Viking expeditions to Ireland and mentions interactions with the Ostmen. For example, it references figures like Olaf Tryggvason, who had ties to Dublin’s Norse-Gaelic community.Skaldic Epics: Norse oral poetry, some of which was recorded later, occasionally refers to Irish campaigns and settlements. These provide insights into Norse perspectives on their Irish descendants.Significance: These sources offer a Scandinavian viewpoint but are less focused on the Ostmen specifically, as they prioritize Norse kings and warriors. They’re useful for cultural context.

Runic InscriptionsNorse runestones, primarily found in Scandinavia but occasionally in Ireland, mention voyages to or from Ireland. For example, runestones in Sweden reference warriors who died in “the West” (likely Ireland), indicating connections between Scandinavia and Ostmen communities.Significance: These are rare but provide direct evidence of Norse presence and influence in Ireland, though they don’t explicitly focus on the Ostmen’s hybrid culture.

Anglo-Saxon and English RecordsAnglo-Saxon Chronicle (9th–12th centuries): This English source mentions Viking activities in the Irish Sea region, including interactions with Ostmen in Dublin and other ports. It uses the term “Ostmen” (meaning “men from the east”) to describe Norse-Gaelic communities in Ireland, particularly in the 12th century.Significance: These records are valuable for understanding how the Ostmen were perceived by neighboring cultures, especially as wealthy merchants and landowners in places like Dublin’s Ostmantown.

Archaeological Evidence as Primary SourceExcavations in Dublin (e.g., Wood Quay), Cork, and Waterford have uncovered artifacts like Norse-style buildings, coins, and trade goods that reflect the Ostmen’s material culture. For instance, Dublin’s Ostmen were involved in trade networks across the Irish Sea, as evidenced by finds of Scandinavian-style jewelry and weights.Significance: While not textual, these artifacts are primary sources that corroborate written accounts of Ostmen wealth and urban life. They provide tangible evidence of their Norse-Gaelic hybrid culture.

Ecclesiastical RecordsRecords from Irish monasteries, such as those near Ostmen settlements (e.g., St. Fin Barre’s in Cork), mention interactions with Norse-Gaelic communities. Some Ostmen converted to Christianity and endowed churches, as seen in Dublin’s Christ Church Cathedral, founded in the 11th century.Significance: These sources highlight the Ostmen’s gradual assimilation into Christian Irish society, though they are sparse and often focus on religious rather than secular activities.

Its a puzzle board.

Your academic references would be welcome for a later look. But nothing to stress about.

As i said, i have to limit my topics even if interesting.
 
Little bit of feedback here on Athlone, which has been raised a couple times: I suggested that the location be west of the Shannon. Whilst today it's part of County Westmeath, that's only been the case since a munipical shakeup in 1898!

Athlone was originally built in the mid-12th century by the O'Conors of Connacht to defend their side of the Shannon after the Anglo-Normans built a bridge across it, and the castle and historic centre are on the Connacht side of the river. This geography was of key importance not only during the conflicts between the Gaels and Anglo-Normans, but later on in the Irish Confederate and Williamite wars: in the former it remained unshakeable until the English landed at Sligo and attacked it from the west, and its location across the river made it a key defensive stronghold of the Jacobites in the latter, requiring one of the longest and most famous sieges in Irish history to capture.

When Roscommon was properly integrated as a County, the barony of Athlone made up the bulk of its southern protrusion between the Suck and west bank of the Shannon. The later suburbs would mostly arise on the more defensible west, along the road key road to Dublin, but these would not be built until much later – for most of the period covered Athlone was a fortified town in Connacht, fought over bitterly between the English and Irish.
Very interesting points and helpful map.

I think you're right that I was wrong about Athlone and too dismissive of Ballymore and in that instance was too influenced by modern borders, particularly against placing Athlone within Galway. I think the way the borders are drawn now with your explanation does work well to make Athlone a chokepoint into Connacht, without a meaningful eastern hinterland.
However, I don't know if other places in EU5 have a similar issue of a city on one side of a river in the middle ages not being represented visually as present on at least a sliver of both sides if it did grow into it. Particularly if there isn't any comparable town on the other side that comes close to the river. I suppose it should be drawn to show however the location works for river crossing penalties, which for Athlone ought to be important.
Anyways Ballinasloe (while something of a chokepoint as well) falls more or less right at the edge of the Kilconnell location (maybe being more prominent in the long run).

Looking in more detail at the "Ballymore" area, it's more interesting than I had considered.
I'm curious why it would be shown as part of the Pale, since it would seem the area would have had a Gaelic territory ruled by the Mac Eochagáin as Cinel-Fhiachach or Kinaleagh. There is Castletown Geoghegan in a fairly prominent position in the east, though it's no prominent town anymore.
Ballymore itself is a good choice if the location is within the Pale, or if it was under Mac Eochagáin control for any period, or had the most development potential of any place in the location. It is a compact region between the four towns of Athlone, Mullingar, Longford, and Tullamore. I see from the wikipedia (citation needed) that Ballymore in particular was devastated by the Bruce wars. Ballymore is relevant in the 17th century wars but I'm not sure it was all that relevant in peacetime or for control of the whole region?
Kilbeggan has more name recognition, longer and more continuous prominence, and is closer to Castletown Geoghegan than Ballymore, though it is at the extreme south compared to the central positions of CG and Ballymore, and more a church town than a political control centre - but that does have the advantage of being "neutral".

I don't like the borders of your proposed "Bangor", and Ards: didn't exist at game start, and; you had to mangle the borders of your new location to fit it in.
That's fair. I wasn't sure if people might have wanted one to represent the peninsula coast and the other the more inland territories, and whether Newtownards had enough prominence over Bangor in later times to justify being able to grow separately, the same way Belfast is its own thing earlier than it was relevant.
A similar question mark hangs over Newry honestly - whether to make it a capital of Orior which would put it at prominence too early (and be too far east?), or just make it its own special location separate from Rathfriland, and perhaps single it out for greatness too early. Maybe if there are event chains later on to rename well-developed locations based on the extent of urbanism a lot of Ireland's locations can be updated so that 1700s locations with large towns aren't named after villages of 100 people or the 400 year old castle next to said village.
 
As for the development disparity: I think it's appropriate, and could stand to be more stark than it is. Ireland outside of the lordship was a pastoral, semi-nomadic society. There were monastic communities, forts, and churches, but almost nothing in the way of permanent towns and cities: the few that were under Irish control were either built by the Anglo-Normans and then reconquered (e.g. Sligo, later Enniscorthy and Nenagh), or large monastic/church settlements (e.g. Armagh, Tuam). Meanwhile, Anglo-Norman–controlled lands had numerous English-style walled cities and towns, as well as permanent farms and manors. In terms of what the game models with development, it *was* far more developed.

The starting setup should reflect this asymmetry, but also give the Irish tools to thrive regardless. Irish territory should be much harder to conquer and Irish clans should be able to mobilise far more of their population much more cheaply, and profit from cattle raids and extract black rents from the more developed farms and cities.
I'm taking all that into account, and not complaining about how Ireland compares to its neighbours because we don't have the total figures tallied to compare the countries and the Areas, and I'm not complaining that it's not high overall, which it obviously wouldn't be.
The specifics of how development works vis a vis location count is a question for the devs when it comes to balancing an outlier region like Ireland where it was underdeveloped and extremely divided. ie: are 2 locations with 6 development better or worse for balance than 1 location with 12 development, and in what contexts. The different sizes and unclear baseline development of the locations that have made it into the game don't give that clear an indication.

Secondly, I would imagine that the development system would be based on the development that's within the location, rather than what's accessible to the ruling tag. If there are walled Norman towns in Gaelic territories, and Gaelic holdouts in Norman/Pale territories, I would say that the development tally of both parallel societies is present in the location, even if the tag only gets benefit from half of it - thanks to EU5 being less abstracted than EU4.
That, and factoring in the possibility of shifted baseline phenomena due to the amount of developments that were once present but no longer survive, it's worth considering the possible ranges of development beyond what survived (even in stone ruins, of which there are plenty) or was ever recorded as useful to whoever took stock of it.

But without a clearer understanding of what is intended it's hard to say whether Laois is meant to be a black hole compared to Donegal, let alone the glorious 1000 square kilometres of Longford that outshine anywhere but London.
 
Last edited:
No, I don't see your point. I'd addressed these points before. By the start of the game's timeframe, Norm was largely marginalised. It's still represented, and that lines up with its historical representation and prominence in the time period. That process of gaelicisation is already very much underway, explaining the slow fade from places like Ross and Sutherland.

Please stop posting examples from hundreds of years before the game's starting point. As I said, societies change. Something being represented in 1100 does not mean it should also be represented in 1337. Just because you want way more Norn pops in the game does not mean it's a good or historically accurate idea. By all means, after the game's release, play a Norn Orkney run and try to bring about a Norn resurgence in Scotland, but I don't see the point in trying to push for ahistoric representation in the game's start data for nationalistic purposes.

Also worth noting that some of the Norse Gael pops you're mentioning are already represented in the game - in both the islands and Galloway.
I already know you disagree, but still waiting for anything that supports your claim?

Were is your sources? other than "i belive this, i think this, this was how it was, dont do this etc" So were is this arrogance from?

Norse presence was before "Scotland". And we shared todays "Scotland" for a long time including game start.

"The Scottish crown claimed the overlordship of Ross and neighbouring Caithness (which then included Sutherland) from Norway in 1098, but the process of establishing effective Scottish authority over the area took many years. Whereas Moray to the south was divided into shires (areas administered by a sheriff) during the 12th century, Ross and Caithness at that time were placed under the nominal jurisdiction of the Sheriff of Inverness (one of the three sheriffdoms created covering the province of Moray) rather than being given their own sheriffs
By the mid-13th century there were sheriffs at Cromarty and Dingwall, both within the province of Ross, but each appears to have had only a small area of jurisdiction around those towns, rather than the larger territories usually given to sheriffs. The Sheriff of Inverness was therefore still responsible for most of Ross and Caithness. The position of Sheriff of Dingwall did not endure."

There is Nothing that's point toward any form of rapid assimilation of Ross that i can find, so again were do you get your opinions from? Scotland have not even assimilated fully the northern ilands yet after 500 years TODAY.

The Mormaer of Caithness was a vassal title mostly held by members of the Norwegian nobility based in Orkney from the Viking Age until 1350 (AFTER GAME START).
The mormaerdom was held as fief of Scotland. and the title was frequently held by the Norse Earls of Orkney, who were thus a vassal of both the King of Norway and the King of Scots. There is no other example in the history of either Norway or of Scotland in which a dynasty of earls owed their allegiance to two different kings.

Sutherland was part of the Caithness mormaerdom for most of this title's history, but was "taken" by Alexander II from Magnus, the first "Angus" earl, and given to others for unknown reasons.

So Norse influence is absolutely not far before game start even how much you wish it to be true. Scottish royal influence over the later clans also was minimal at best. Even Normans ruling as lords.


I think your tone is arrogant and so far based on nothing. So stop telling me what to do if we going to continue this.
 
Last edited:
  • 5
Reactions:
Norway was before "Scotland". And we shared todays "Scotland" for a long time including game start.
The Kingdom of Scotland was traditionally founded in 843 when Kenneth MacAlpin, King of Dál Riata, inherited the throne of the Picts, uniting the two peoples under one crown. The Kingdom of Norway meanwhile was founded in 872 by Harald Fairhair. So saying it was before Scotland isnt really accurate.

In relation to your comments about the Earldom of Caithness. It was confiscated by the Scottish crown either before or just after game start. If the earldom of Caithness was added there should probably be an event allowing hte Scottish crown to seize it like happened historically.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
The Kingdom of Scotland was traditionally founded in 843 when Kenneth MacAlpin, King of Dál Riata, inherited the throne of the Picts, uniting the two peoples under one crown. The Kingdom of Norway meanwhile was founded in 872 by Harald Fairhair. So saying it was before Scotland isnt really accurate.

In relation to your comments about the Earldom of Caithness. It was confiscated by the Scottish crown either before or just after game start. If the earldom of Caithness was added there should probably be an event allowing hte Scottish crown to seize it like happened historically.
Kingdom of Alba, to what degree that can be called Scotland. But yes, to that i agree.

This is not about it should belong to Norway in the game.

This was from the very beginning about if a minority norse culture is justified in whole Sutherland province and some of Ross at game start. Considering its recent history there etc as previously discussed.

Not a big deal, you would think.
 
ProvinceMean Dev
Middlesex28.66666667
Oxfordshire23.66666667
Hampshire23.5
Bedfordshire23
Buckinghamshire23
Berkshire22.33333333
Sussex22.25
Kent22
Surrey21.66666667
Cornwall21.33333333
Dorset21
Essex20.8
Gloucestershire20.75
Wiltshire20
Strathclyde19.6
Devon19.5
Warwickshire19.33333333
Hertfordshire19
Somerset18.6
East Riding18.5
Lancashire18.4
Durham18.33333333
Lincolnshire18.33333333
Glamorgan18.33333333
Northamptonshire18
Suffolk18
North Riding17.8
Dehuabarth17.66666667
Aberdeenshire17.6
Angus17.5
Northumberland17.2
Ross17
Leicestershire17
Cambridgeshire17
Moray16.75
Cheshire16.66666667
Nottinghamshire16.66666667
Gwynedd16.57142857
West Riding16
Worcestershire16
Sutherland15.75
Teviotdale15.66666667
Powys15.66666667
Staffordshire15.33333333
Derbyshire15.33333333
Cumberland15.25
Fife15
Shropshire15
Brecon15
Argyll14.83333333
Galloway14.8
Herefordshire14.33333333
Dublin14.25
Perthshire14
Westmorland14
Norfolk14
Wexford14
Lothian13.8
Derry13.66666667
Waterford13.66666667
Down13.33333333
Antrim12.6
Clare12.33333333
Donegal12
Limerick12
Cork12
Meath11.875
Oriel11.5
Galway11
Tyrone10.4
Desmond10.2
Breifne9.8
Roscommon9.6
Tipperary9.5
Kildare9.2
Mayo8.75
Northern Isles7
Kilkenney7
Inner Hebrides6.75
Outer Hebrides6.25

Mean Development for each Province. Wales is not 100% accurate since some locations were added between the development map and the newest location map, but I used the development of predecessor locations for successor ones, so should be roughly accurate.
 
  • 2Love
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I already know you disagree, but still waiting for anything that supports your claim?

Were is your sources? other than "i belive this, i think this, this was how it was, dont do this etc" So were is this arrogance from?

Norse presence was before "Scotland". And we shared todays "Scotland" for a long time including game start.

"The Scottish crown claimed the overlordship of Ross and neighbouring Caithness (which then included Sutherland) from Norway in 1098, but the process of establishing effective Scottish authority over the area took many years. Whereas Moray to the south was divided into shires (areas administered by a sheriff) during the 12th century, Ross and Caithness at that time were placed under the nominal jurisdiction of the Sheriff of Inverness (one of the three sheriffdoms created covering the province of Moray) rather than being given their own sheriffs
By the mid-13th century there were sheriffs at Cromarty and Dingwall, both within the province of Ross, but each appears to have had only a small area of jurisdiction around those towns, rather than the larger territories usually given to sheriffs. The Sheriff of Inverness was therefore still responsible for most of Ross and Caithness. The position of Sheriff of Dingwall did not endure."

There is Nothing that's point toward any form of rapid assimilation of Ross that i can find, so again were do you get your opinions from? Scotland have not even assimilated fully the northern ilands yet after 500 years TODAY.

The Mormaer of Caithness was a vassal title mostly held by members of the Norwegian nobility based in Orkney from the Viking Age until 1350 (AFTER GAME START).
The mormaerdom was held as fief of Scotland. and the title was frequently held by the Norse Earls of Orkney, who were thus a vassal of both the King of Norway and the King of Scots. There is no other example in the history of either Norway or of Scotland in which a dynasty of earls owed their allegiance to two different kings.

Sutherland was part of the Caithness mormaerdom for most of this title's history, but was "taken" by Alexander II from Magnus, the first "Angus" earl, and given to others for unknown reasons.

So Norse influence is absolutely not far before game start even how much you wish it to be true. Scottish royal influence over the later clans also was minimal at best. Even Normans ruling as lords.


I think your tone is arrogant and so far based on nothing. So stop telling me what to do if we going to continue this.
mate look
I think you need to calm down a wee bit over what happens in Scotland
From reading this I get the impression that you're very into your Norway stuff but mate go on the Norway feedback forum, we can't make all of Scotland Norn just bc you feel like it

The line "Norse presence was before 'Scotland'" is very interesting to me. There is a very direct link from the Pictish notions to Gaelic ones to a more modern Scottish one. That identity had already been there for 500+ years at game start, so I really don't see how anything in that time-frame is relevant. There is already a Norn culture in-game, and no-one is disputing that it existed, but only really in the regions specified. The NW of Scotland has for a long time been Gaelicised and at game-start you would be looking at a rinrig (fearann-tuatha) system type of existence taking over, which was a firmly Scots Gaelic way of working.

Please mate, gies aw a rest here n pack it in
 
  • 11Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions: