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Tinto Flavour #20 - 23rd of May 2025

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Tuesdays & Fridays in which we take a look at the content of Europa Universalis V!

Today we will be taking a look at the content of Muscovy, and its ‘successor state’, Russia, after Grand Prince Ivan III ‘the Great’ proclaimed himself ‘Sovereign of All Russia’. This is a special TF, because it’s the first one in which we show the content for one of the seven ‘Tier 1’ counties, those that we consider the most important in the 1337-1836 period, and thus, that have the most content in the game.

Let’s start taking a look at it, as usual:

The Grand Principality of Muscovy stands at a crossroads of political maneuvering, and economic troubles under the Tatar Yoke, and an ongoing power struggle among East Slavic principalities, each vying for supremacy within the fragmented Rus' territories. The Tatar invasion continues to cast a long shadow over the region and Muscovy, like many other Rus' principalities, remains a tributary to the formidable Golden Horde.

Guiding Muscovy through these complexities is Grand Prince Ivan Rurikovich, a leader keenly aware of the delicate balance required for survival under Tatar dominion. He has skillfully managed the principality's affairs through diplomatic initiatives and strategic alliances and now seeks to consolidate power and enhance Muscovy's standing within the Yoke, with aspirations to unite the Rus' land under one banner.

Country Selection.png

As usual, consider all UI, 2D and 3D art WIP.

Muscovy1.png

Muscovy2.png

This is the starting diplomatic situation of Muscovy:
Personal Unions.png

Muscovy starts in a Personal Union with a bunch of principalities, including Novgorod, which is a Republic that elects its rulers among those of other countries.

Tatar Yoke.png

This is the current starting state of the Tatar Yoke, with Muscovy being entitled as the ‘Grand Prince of Vladimir’ - or, in other words, the ‘tribute collector’ for the Tatars. We won’t talk about this feature today, but in the Tinto Flavour devoted to the Golden Horde.

These are some of the privileges that the Russian countries have available from the start:
Privilege Kormlenije.png

Privilege The Ryad.png

Priviliege Tysiatskii Office.png

Also, this starting Legal Code Policy:
Policy Russkaya Pravda.png

Here you have some of the advances available for Muscovy and Russia through the ages, as usual:
Advance Gatherers Tribute.png

Advance Pomestnoe.png

Advance Zasechnara.png

Advance Imperial Guard.png

And now let’s move into the narrative content. Muscovy has 109 Dynamic Historical Events available, while there are another 73 unlockable after having formed Russia, which makes for a total of 182 available DHEs - that’s what being a ‘Tier 1’ country means, in regards to content. Many of them will unlock very different types of other content assets, as you’ll see now:

Event Campaigns against Novgorod.png

This is an event that may trigger if Novgorod elects another ruler, as happened historically.

Kremlin.png

Kremlin2.png

If you build the Kremlin, there will be further events related to it.

Event Denga and Ruble.png


Event Prikazi.png

Reform Prikazi.png


Event Book of Census.png

Reform Razriadnyi.png


Event Sophia Komnenos.png

ReformByzantine Court Ceremonies.png

If Byzantium falls, and some other conditions are met, you might be able to marry a Greek princess, and proclaim your country as the ‘Third Rome’.

If you expand your country, you might be able to form Russia at a certain point:
Form Russia.png

Russian Empire.png

Russian Empire2.png

The Russian Principalities account for approximately 460 locations, so you need to conquer some more from the Golden Horde to get to the 508 required. I forced it through the console to show it to you, but one of our QA testers made a recent run, and he was able to form it around 1500, OOC.

When the Age of Reformation starts, there will be this advance available for the Russian countries:
Siberian Frontier1.png

That unlocks:
Pomor Outpost.png

Settle the Frontier.png

It’s also possible for a unique disaster to trigger, the Time of Troubles:
Time of Troubles1.png

Time of Troubles2.png

Time of Troubles3.png

Time of Troubles4.png

Time of Troubles5.png

Time of Troubles has many different events happening, on top of the DHEs:

If you overcome it, there’s even more late-game content, of course:

Reform Collegium.png


Reform Nakaz.png


Reform Speransky.png


Event Bolshoi.png

Bolsoi Theater.png

… And much more, but that’s all for today! As today is Friday, this will be the schedule for next week:
  • Monday -> Tinto Flavour about Venice and Genoa
  • Tuesday -> Tinto Flavour about Serbia and Georgia
  • Wednesday -> Tinto Talks about the Orthodox and Miaphysite religions
  • Thursday -> Third ‘Behind the Scenes’ video!
  • Friday -> Tinto Flavour about the Roman Empire, AKA Byzantium
And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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No connection, other than in dynasty, territory, language, culture, food, legal systems, religion, traditions, architecture, legacy, genetics, history and social structure.
Being sacked, and made tributary by the mongols didn't erase that, just like it didn't in Ukraine and Belarus.
Did they change in 300 years? Of course, just like in every single geographical regional during every single time period since the fucking bronze age.
Russia is not the sole successor of the Kievan Rus' (which wasn't even the name of the state, but of the time period), but certainly one of if not the most important.
Moscow was founded in 1147, more than a century after fall of Kyivan Rus'.
Its territory located so far away from Kyiv that it's actually closer to Volgan Bulgars.
Culture of Moscow diverges from other her regions even today, back in time it was much worse.
Legacy of Kyivan Rus' ended back in 977 with the death of Svyatoslav.

The only connections of Moscow to Rus' are genetics, dynasty and maybe architecture.
 
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Moscow was founded in 1147, more than a century after fall of Kyivan Rus'.
Its territory located so far away from Kyiv that it's actually closer to Volgan Bulgars.
Culture of Moscow diverges from other her regions even today, back in time it was much worse.
Legacy of Kyivan Rus' ended back in 977 with the death of Svyatoslav.

The only connections of Moscow to Rus' are genetics, dynasty and maybe architecture.
Novgorod was 2nd most important city of Kievan Rus (and at times most important) plenty connection left there
 
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Perhaps something like this was already addressed in this thread but I'm curious if other European countries might have access to Cossack settlement mechanics/pomor outposts if they control the region and have access to the Siberian frontier (e.g. if Poland or Lithuania [or their union] manage to conquer all of the Russian states). Obviously the ability to colonize will be there regardless, but I'm curious if the mechanics will transfer over.
 
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I learned Russian history a lot. I already took advantage of it.
Moscow and Russia are parts of absolutely different time frame. It's like modern Italy claiming herself to be Empire of Romans.
Because a century is all that it takes for large swathes of territory to metamorphose into something completely different, of course.
I think I see now how you "took advantage" of what you have learned.
 
Because a century is all that it takes for large swathes of territory to metamorphose into something completely different, of course.
I think I see now how you "took advantage" of what you have learned.
Not a century, but almost a millenium. Kyivan Rus' dissolved in year 977 and Empire of Russia was formed by Peter the Great in 1700's. 800 years is enough for things to change.
 
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As the game starts during Gediminas and Algirdas reign and Gediminas in his letters to pope, claimed to be "King of Lithuanians and many Ruthenians" and Algirdas in his letters to Patriarch of Constantinople claimed the same, only with title "basileus", will Moscow flavour include some flavour to GDL for regional dominance?
 
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From all your posts here I can see, that there was a approximately hundred years period, when PLC managed to achieve victories against Russia. Worth to mention, that this is only about 20% of the game timeline, and this goes directly against your claim about weak/insignificant Moscovy/Russia.
And how can you claim early/mid game polish supremacy, if you state that Poland did not fight Muscovy/Russia before the Livonian war?

And you even mentioned, that the first part of 1600 was called "Time of Troubles" in russian lands, so even during one of the most difficult moments for russian states, PLC failed to defeat them desciesevly, removing or significantly weakening potential future opponent.

As for gameplay reasons - important countries may be the countries, with unique and challenging conditions. I still remember fun of playing early EU4 patches as Venice, trying to resist Ottomans and had a great time. Venice probably would be among on the the first of my campaings in EU5.
Muscovy/Russia provide a lot of challenge in interesting historical ways of development. From my point of view, Muscovy is more challenging and interesting, than Poland or Lithuania start in 1337.
I believe Lithuania is actually more challenging, due to:
Constant fight against Teutons and Livonians.
Fight against Golden Horde : Battle of Blue Waters for example
Diplomatic play regarding religion and regional dominance
Fight with Moscow for dominance in Rus lands.
Fight with Poland regarding south lands.
While Moscow only needs to focus on the fight with Lithuania and Golden horde, but historically, Lithuania started the fight first. So without flavour for Lithuania to weaken the Golden Horde, it may be to strong for Moscow to beat. As for example in the main two batlles for freedom from Golden Horde in One Lithuania allied with the Prince of Moscow, and in another it allied with Golden horde, however, they did not participate in the second one, due to Livonian army attacking Lithuania.

So the first 100 years from a gameplay perspective should be much more eventful in Lithuania, and it gets dull after Vytautas dies without a crown.
 
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There was a lot of long-time wars between Muscovy/Russia and Lithuania and later Poland. Here a table for up to 16th century wars between them (In 17th century yes, Russia had problems and lost some wars, but that does not make Russia minor power). My argument here is that Russia played major role in Eastern politics even before late game
DateName of warEnemy 1Enemy 2Results
1368—13721st Muscovite-Lithuanian warMuscovy, RyazanLithuania, Tver, SmolenskTie. Status Quo, Lithuania lost Tver as an ally
1406—14082nd Muscovite-Lithuanian warMuscovyLithuaniaTie. Status Quo, Lithuania was not able to conquer Pskov (Muscovite vassal). Worth mentioning: After this war Russian historians and other Princes understood that Muscovy is reliable overlord, that helps even in the worst scenarios. Novgorod was scared from Muscovite power.
1487—14941st Russian-Lithuanian (strange) warRussia, CrimeaLithuaniaRussian victory. Upper Oca principalities went to Russia. Russia renounces claims in Smolensk and Bryansk.
1500—15032nd Russian-Lithuanian warRussia, CrimeaLithuania, Livonian OrderRussian victory. Lithuania lost around 1/3 its territory. Lithuania acknowledged Ivan's title, sovereign of all Russia.
1507—15083rd Russian-Lithuanian warRussiaLithuania, PolandTie? Russia gives Liubech to Lithuania. Lithuania recognizes all Russian conquests during the previous war.
1512—15224th Russian-Lithuanian (Ten Years') warRussiaLithuania, PolandRussian victory. Lithuania gives Smolensk to Russia.
1534—15375th Russian-Lithuanian war (war of Starodub)RussiaLithuania, PolandTie. Lithuania gains Gomel. Russia gains Sebezh and Zawolocze.
1558—1583Livonian warRussian TsardomLithuania, Poland (later PLC), Livonia, Denmark, Norway, Sweden. (everyone partially)PLC-Livonian Victory. Lithuania lost several battles, which led to signing PLC. Russia was not able to conquer Livonia, and suffered heavy economic crisis, which led in future to time of troubles.

Conclusion: Muscovy/Russia was not that weak as you think. Russia became detached from europe and "big politics" after Livonian war for like 50-100 years (as we count smolensk war lost). Don't forget that during that times Russia also fought Crimeans and Ottomans (After conquest of Golden Horde's clusters). Battle of Molodi is the brightest example to it. So: Muscovy/Russia was gaining territory the whole game period, but 17th century. I consider it as a major power
Just to note that if you read Lithuanian history around those wars, Lithuanians suffered heavy losses against the orders, for example with the one with Tver, Livonians attacked Lithuania, thus the Armies were late as they went to fight the Livonians. Thus in a scenario where they take on the Christianity offer in exchange for claims to conquered lands, Lithuanians would be much more powerful than they were. As they did get several offers, they just did not take them as they wanted orders to give back the Baltic lands.
 
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Legacy of Kyivan Rus' ended back in 977 with the death of Svyatoslav.
Not a century, but almost a millenium. Kyivan Rus' dissolved in year 977
Anything else is pretty typical "Russians are mongols" propaganda BS, but this take really puzzles me. Strictly speaking Kievan Rus arguably began with with Vladimir's centralisation and christianisation policies. before it was some amorphous pagan tribal entity, and Svyatoslav is the first historical ruler of it anyway (because we have direct Byzantine reports of him), all before him are semi-mythical at best. Even most radical modern Ukrainian nationalists would not deny this, quite the contrary, they paint Vladimir/Volodymer/whatever as first great Ukrainian or something. How the hell Kievan Rus could end in 977? When REAL Kievan Rus existed, in Rurik's time who never visited Kiev?
 
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Anything else is pretty typical "Russians are mongols" propaganda BS, but this take really puzzles me. Strictly speaking Kievan Rus arguably began with with Vladimir's centralisation and christianisation policies. before it was some amorphous pagan tribal entity, and Svyatoslav is the first historical ruler of it anyway (because we have direct Byzantine reports of him), all before him are semi-mythical at best. Even most radical modern Ukrainian nationalists would not deny this, quite the contrary, they paint Vladimir/Volodymer/whatever as first great Ukrainian or something. How the hell Kievan Rus could end in 977? When REAL Kievan Rus existed, in Rurik's time who never visited Kiev?
Though i never equated Russians with the Mongols.
That "amorphous pagan tribal entity" was more unified than other "Kyivan Rus'es" could ever be. Five rulers passed one by one and realm endured - Rurik, Oleg, Igor, Olga, Svyatoslav. When their first feud broke out, Kyivan state was immediately cursed with being "eastern HRE" - and this is what i call "end of the Rus".
Stating everyone before Svyatoslav were "semi-mythical at best" is.. something. When it's clearly known about Oleg's raid on Constantinople, his trade deal, Russo-Byzantine wars under Igor, taxation reform and christianization of Olga.
 
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Let's just say what the hell which got loose after Svyatoslav death tells me this stuff was pretty normal, just not recorded in this level of detail. . You really believe it was "first feud" and things were chill before that? Well, we had Oleg walking in Kiav and killing Askold and Dire. And the death of Igor, who just went to take to much tribute from another tribe (with strong tribal identity and their own chiefs) and all insanity which followed, if you believe the story - that's some great centralised state for you? Sounds like a typical group of raiding tribes united only by brutality of ruler which keeps the things in check, but everyting goes to hell second he dies, not that different from Germanic tribes before they settled and adopted Roman traditions, or even some time after that. Although Olga's story almost certainly made up this way as to show her change from bloodthirsty chieftess to pious christian women, so it's hard to say what's really happened. Vladimir also had a bit of that like hundred of concubines, but at least they had recorded facts, not some tall tales about birds carrying fire.

Olga, Oleg and Igor are semi-mythical, because we have some pieces of information on them, just not as full and reliable as on Svyatoslav. Rurik is almost completely mythical, meybe he existed, maybe not, meaybe it's three or five rulers conflated in one mythical figure. Maybe they all killed each other. There were archeological signs of raiding near Old Ladoga and proto-Novgorod site. It's just impossible to say, but nothing screams some unified "realm" at you.

Vladimir built the state, before him it was group of tribes held by the sword. After that it was a sword, but also faith, culture and tradition. Being "Eastern HRE" is by the way absolutely typical state for early medieval state, it's just how thing worked, unless you are Byzantine with your post-Roman bureacracy and laws. It's super unrealistic for it to be anything else.
 
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Good afternoon. Will the game present the rivalry between Moscow and Tver for the Vladimir throne and which of the two will become the center of joining the Slavic lands? Historically, Tver participated together with the Mongols in raids on Russia.
 
Good afternoon. Will the game present the rivalry between Moscow and Tver for the Vladimir throne and which of the two will become the center of joining the Slavic lands? Historically, Tver participated together with the Mongols in raids on Russia.
Well, Moscow did a lot of nasty stuff too in this relationship, from convincing khan of the Goldern Horde to execute Tver's prince to participatng in punitive operation against Tver's rebellion against Horde's tax collectors.

I'm pretty sure we will see Golden Horde/Tatar Yoke IO/situation in DD about it, where Russian principalities will be able to do various actions to earn Horde's favour and gain preferred position. Until you hit that red button and launch rebellion yourself.
 
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I think it's better for Ruthenia to have their own content/flavour and identity rather than just being a carbon copy of Russia with a different flag.
Especially since forming Ruthenia requires you to unify a region that doesn't even border the Urals, let alone Siberia.
It would be like giving France conquistadors rather than their own colonial flavour.View attachment 1305107

I agree that every nation should have its own unique content and flavor.

However, I disagree with the idea that only Muscovy or Russia is destined to colonize Siberia. Any nation that borders an uncolonized region should have the opportunity to seize it - especially with a cabinet action like the one proposed by the developers (i paste it below).

Or are we suggesting that Siberia should remain uncolonized until the 18th century, only to be settled by the Spanish or Portuguese from the Pacific coast, simply because Russia failed to form?


Settle the Frontier.png
 
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Well, Russian colonisation of Siberia is a specific thing, happened in a specific historic context. From that logic, China should be able to colonise Siberia, or nomadic nations bordering it like Chagatai/Timurids, but they didn't. Well, Mongols did and left a couple of successor states like Siberian Khanate, which was conquered by Russians, but Mongols are again their own thing.

I would certainly not just give it to everyone. At least in EU4 you had to get into ideas to do this without country flavor.

By the way at least some part of Western Siberia at the game start should be strictly speaking part of the Golden Horde, though their control was pretty thin and not unlike colony. I guess we will learn more about it in it's DD.
 
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Что ж, Москва тоже делала много гадостей в этих отношениях, начиная от убеждения хана Золотой Орды казнить тверского князя и заканчивая участием в карательной операции против восстания Твери против ордынских сборщиков налогов.

Я почти уверен, что мы увидим ситуацию в Золотой Орде/Татарском Иге IO/ситуации в ДД по этому поводу, где русские княжества смогут совершать различные действия, чтобы заслужить благосклонность Орды и получить привилегированное положение. Пока вы не нажмете эту красную кнопку и не начнете восстание сами.
Возможно, будет выбор между исторической и альтернативной версиями развития Москвы и Твери, было бы интересно поиграть в эту игру