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Tinto Talks #65 - 28th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Eastern Christianity religions. We have grouped them into three main religions: Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, and Nestorianism. So, let’s start without further ado.



Orthodoxy

This is the overview of the Orthodox religion:
Orthodoxy Tooltip.jpg

This tooltip needs some more love, as we’re not showing all the mechanics of the religion. That’s because, as usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D art WIP.

This is the country panel of the religion:
Orthodoxy Panel.jpg

Countries of Orthodox religion in Autocephalous Patriarchates, which are a type of IO:
Autocephalous Patriarchates5.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates2.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates1.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates3.jpg

I’m taking here the Autocephalous Patriarchate of Constantinople, which has the custom name of ‘Ecumenical Patriarchate’, as an example.

And here you have the existing Orthodox Patriarchates in 1337:
Autocephalous Patriarchates4.jpg

Countries can Join an Autocephalous Patriarchate, if they’ve just converted to Orthodoxy; or, when they already belong to one, they can Change to a different one, or Create a new one:
Autocephalous Patriarchates Join.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates Change.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates Create.jpg

The Seat of an Autocephalous Patriarchates defines the Leader of this IO, which unlocks additional effects and actions:
Seat1.jpg

Seat2.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates Relocate.jpg

There are also some other blocks in the Autocephalous Patriarchate, as its Saints:
Saints.jpg

And Holy Sites:
Holy Sites.jpg

The main currency of the religion is Religious Influence, which already appeared in the Catholic TT:
Religious Influence1.jpg

Religious Influence2.jpg

You can do a few things with your Religious Influence. First, you can canonize a former ruler, making him a Saint:
Saints1.jpg

Saints2.jpg

Saints3.jpg

The benefits you get from the canonization scale with the ruler stats. So better to make sure that you want to canonize a truly memorable former ruler!

You can also call for a Synod in your country:
Synod.jpg

Synod2.jpg

Synod3.jpg

Synod4.jpg

Finally, there’s a unique type of work of art, Icons:
Icons3.jpg

These icons not only give a modifier to the location where they are, but also can be used in a ‘Periphora’ to another location:
Periphora.jpg

Periphora2.jpg



Miaphysitism

Miaphysitism is similar to Orthodoxy, with some differences. Here is the overview of the religion itself:
miaphysitism.png

Same as Orthodoxy, it also has the mechanics of Canonization and Autocephalous Patriarchates, with these ones being the Patriarchates present at start:
miaphysite patriarchates.png

However, most of these are actually empty due to being occupied by Muslim countries, with only Ethiopia remaining as part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Alexandria and the Armenian patriarchate as the only one containing more than one country.
armenian patriarchate.png

An integral part of each the Eastern Christians and their Patriarchates are their Tenets, defined in a series of laws:
Tenets1.jpg

Tenets2.jpg

The ‘Nature’ tenet is a hard–locked IO Law, that depends on each Religion:
Tenets3.jpg

composite nature.png

These Tenets can be changed, and there are multiple possibilites in each Law:
Tenets4.jpg



Nestorianism

There is no country having Nestorianism as its state religion at game start, but the religion is nonetheless still quite spread in some areas. Here is an overview of it:
nestorianism.png

nestorianism panel.png

Nestorianism also has its own holy sites:
nestorianism holy sites.png

And also its specific definition of the nature of Christ:
separate nature.png

A final remark on a common flavor for all these religions. First, they have their unique flavor monasteries:
orthodox monastery.png

miaphysite monastery.png

The modifiers are WIP, we want to make them somewhat different.

There's a Law in which you can define the policy of the relationship between the state and the religion:
Patriarchate Law.jpg

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow is Thursday, which means that we will publish a new ‘Behind the Scenes’ video, on Friday, we will discuss the Byzantine Empire in Tinto Flavour, and next Wednesday's Tinto Talks will be about Islam.

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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On this whole old princes debate: problem is there was no separation for "Ruthenian" or "Russian" culture at that time period. In fact, lot of princes moved around throughout their life. Both Vladimir the Great and Mstislav the Great (and many others. since being prince of Novgorod was a typical position fo heir) were princes of Novgorod before they become princes of Kiev, so to claim they are Ruthenians because they ended up there since it was capital city is pretty weird in my opinion. And after that we got whole rota/lestviitsa system with everyone moving around a lot. So giving them names based on in which country this city they ended up ruling ended up after USSR dissolution is again really weird.

So unified culture based for princes of that period woud be nice for consistency, but yes, would be nightmare from the point of reading/prononciation. I don't see clear winner option here.
I think developers just use the existing set of cultures and dialects to portray earlier rulers everywhere—not just in Rus', but in England, for example—as these rulers would not appear anywhere outside of the dynastic tree and (rarely) the list of saints. In such circumstances, it does make sense to assign a ruler's culture based on the regional branch of the Rurikid dynasty (most of which appeared in the 12th century, though some, like the one from Polotsk, have much earlier origins) and to have "Ruthenian" assigned to them before this split (since we don't have a better option right now).

And yes, some lands, like Novgorod, didn't really have their own dynasty. Kyiv, since the middle of the 12th century, also didn't have one and became a battleground between different groups of Rurikids. So, the two saints you can see from this period probably have—or should have—"Severian" culture assigned to them, as they are from the Chernihiv Olhovychi branch of Rurikids.
 
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I think developers just use the existing set of cultures and dialects to portray earlier rulers everywhere—not just in Rus', but in England, for example—as these rulers would not appear anywhere outside of the dynastic tree and (rarely) the list of saints. In such circumstances, it does make sense to assign a ruler's culture based on the regional branch of the Rurikid dynasty (most of which appeared in the 12th century, though some, like the one from Polotsk, have much earlier origins) and to have "Ruthenian" assigned to them before this split (since we don't have a better option right now).

And yes, some lands, like Novgorod, didn't really have their own dynasty. Kyiv, since the middle of the 12th century, also didn't have one and became a battleground between different groups of Rurikids. So, the two saints you can see from this period probably have—or should have—"Severian" culture assigned to them, as they are from the Chernihiv Olhovychi branch of Rurikids.
Somewhat artificial approach, but like I said, no clear best option here.

About second point: We didn't seen culture, unless I missed something, only the names, I'm not sure they have culture assigned to them at all. Severian culture is it's own bugbear. What would be "Severian" prononciation of these names anyway? :rolleyes:
 
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Church of St. Anna – Uzhhorod (Hungary)

Work of Art – church

  • The precise age is unknown, but estimated around the X – XI centuries
  • Wiki UA page
Those are some odd estimates.
"The analysis of these materials shows that the
construction of the circular church of Horyany may
be dated not earlier than the end of the 13th century
or the first decade of the 14th century. At that time
County Ung was predominantly owned by the Aba
kindred (1279–1317)."
 
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Also on the Rus saints: I think in addition to regnal numbers there should be patronymic/city title/sub-dynasty mentioned. Because simply regnal number (which nobody used at the time) and Rurikid dynasty is confusing and at least somewhat misleading, as it implies they are all from single unbroken line from which they are not.
 
Those are some odd estimates.
"The analysis of these materials shows that the
construction of the circular church of Horyany may
be dated not earlier than the end of the 13th century
or the first decade of the 14th century. At that time
County Ung was predominantly owned by the Aba
kindred (1279–1317)."
Yes, I should probably change the estimation because there are different estimations in Ukrainian sources too, from the X to the XIII centuries, with the inner paintings are probably from the early XIV century.
I included it only as a non-priority option, so I don't mind if it is not added.

Somewhat artificial approach, but like I said, no clear best option here.

About secont point: We didn't seen culture, unless I missed something, only the names, I'm not sure they have culture assigned to them at all. Severian culture is it's own bugbear. What would be "Severian" prononciation of these names anyway? :rolleyes:
All characters have cultures assigned to them by default. Because the names (both ) are generated dynamically using those lists. I think Dave mentioned that some months ago. Nevertheless, Severian culture uses the same language and dialect as Ruthenian, so the names would be the same in this case.
And for example the saint prince of Polotsk Vseslav should be Usyaslaw Rurykavich, the saint Grand Prince of Vladimir-Suzdal should be Andrey Bogolyubskiy etc.
 
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Maybe my it's too late to add my own lepta and it has already been discussed, but:
Rename the Kyivan Rus' Saints!
Currently they all bear the modern Ukrainian versions of their names, which feels a bit revisionist-y. You should use their actual Old East Slavic names (with academic romanization):
Ihor --> Igorĭ
Mstyslav --> Mĭstislavŭ
Mykhailo --> Mixailŭ
Volodymyr --> Volodiměr or Vladiměrŭ (Either is fine but the first one is in Old East Slavic and the second is from Old Church Slavonic)

Also, their dynasty name (which, btw, wouldn't be used in this fashion as a surname, they'd be using patronymics instead, but it's an understandable simplification) should similarly be changed from Riurykovych to Rjurikovič.

Also also, they weren't mere princes - their title was Grand Prince. This could be represented in-game by making them rulers of a higher-tier title than the current Principality of Kyiv. Something like The Rus' or maybe Ruthenia, and maybe you could even make it into a formable (pretty please)?

I assume the last saint we can't see in the screenshot is St. Olga of Kyiv? If so, her name would be spelled Olĭga.

Thanks / Дякую!
Thanks for localizing the Serbian version, but for English it's not acceptable
 
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With all due respect to the scientific background, there are two major issues here: consistency and the impossibility of correct pronunciation for ordinary people.
  • These princes are probably assigned to the Ruthenian culture, which has its own language, dialect, and naming system. For your suggestion, another culture would be needed, solely for a few deceased princes. I specifically looked at Catholic saints, and their names are written in modern languages – for example, Edward, Edgar, Louis, not Ēadweard, Eadgar, Loois – even though they lived in times of Old English and Old French. This is simply a universal approach.
  • The second issue is that 99.999% of players will not correctly understand or pronounce this transliteration system, not even East Slavic users. This is a specific system to transliterate a dead language and sounds (reduced vowels) that have not existed for 900 years already. I am absolutely sure everyone will read them as Miksailu and Mistislavu, that is quite far from what it shoud be. Standard transliteration is much closer to the original in all 3 East Slavic languages.
Hence, if other languages use modern spelling, then I want the same approach for all East Slavic languages. There are canonised princes from Polotsk, Novgorod, and Vladimir-Suzdal as well, so they should have modern-day Belarusian and Russian spelling too. So it's not only about Ukrainian.
Ok, fair, I did fail to consider the consistency with other saints' names, but I would argue that the current names aren't consistent either: just like no one refers to St. Edward the Confessor as "Ēadƿeard" no one outside of Ukraine refers to Rusian saints by the names we currently have in-game. Instead, as you know, all westerners refer to them by the modern russian versions of their names (i.e. "Vladimir", "Mikhail", "Igor" and "Mstislav"). Ironically, these are the names you would get upon removing the "ĭ", "ŭ" and "x", so I guess it would be a more pronounceable version.

Also, yeah, the academic transliteration system will be confusing as hell to westerners, but imo proper portrayal of our history is more important. Plus, CK3 has several dead cultures in the game to represent historical characters, so I think the same could and should be done for Rus' princes in EUV.

In the end, it's probably not that big of a deal, especially since the historical revisionism here acts in our favour) but I'd rather not have modern Ukrainian or russian culture projected backwards onto Kyivan Rus'.
 
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Well, they mostly consistant by principle ruled in modern Ukraine - Ukrainian name, but who the hell is "Mykhailo II"? There are canonised Mikhail of Chernigov, Mikhail of Tver/Vladimir, Mikhail of Smolensk, Mikhail of Yaroslavl and Mikhail of Murom, but I have no idea why any of them is "II", nobody used these regnal names in the time. Srsly PDX, pls use patronymics or city or this will going to be weird.

By this logic, one from Chernigov should be Mykhailo and one from Tver/Vladimir Mikhail?
 
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And for example the saint prince of Polotsk Vseslav should be Usyaslaw Rurykavich, the saint Grand Prince of Vladimir-Suzdal should be Andrey Bogolyubskiy etc.
Yeah no, I don't really like this kind of approach. I'd rather all these characters have modern Ukrainian names instead of having the names be arbitrarily assigned based on where they ruled.
Kniaz Vseslav of Polotsk (who isn't a saint iirc?) ruled Kyiv for like half a year - should he be named in Ukrainian then?
Kniaz Volodymyr (Volodimer?) the Great of Kyiv started out as Kniaz of Novgorod and won the Kyivan throne through a civil war, so would that make him "russian" or "Ukrainian"?
All of this is really arbitrary, plus - there are no separate Belarusian and Ukrainian languages at the start of EUV, so if we assign Ruthenian culture to the Rus' princes do we use Ukrainian or Belarusian names?

I think adding a small "dead" culture like in CK3 to represent these historical characters would be the most elegant solution to this.
 
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I think adding a small "dead" culture like in CK3 to represent these historical characters would be the most elegant solution to this.

Dead culture is no problem, problem is prononciation/spelling in this case. It's either Ukrainian or Russian or Belorussian or something what would weird people out like Old Slavonic. But you have to pick something and ideally be consistant with it.
 
Well, they mostly consistant by principle ruled in modern Ukraine - Ukrainian name, but who the hell is "Mykhailo II"? There are canonised Mikhail of Chernigov, Mikhail of Tver/Vladimir, Mikhail of Smolensk, Mikhail of Yaroslavl and Mikhail of Murom, but I have no idea why any of them is "II", nobody used these regnal names in the time. Srsly PDX, pls use patronymics or city or this will going to be weird.

By this logic, one from Chernigov should be Mykhailo and one from Tver/Vladimir Mikhail?
That's Mikhail/Mykhailo/Mixailŭ of Chernihiv. He was canonized for "martyrdom" (i.e. being killed) by the Mongols. Commemorated every 20th February. He's quite obscure, both as a ruler and as a saint - I didn't really know who he was either.

Yeah, it would be great if they used patronimics to make it clear who this guy is, but I'm pretty sure there is a strict limitation on character names and patronymics aren't a thing in EUV.
 
Mikhail of Tver was (ironically) also killed by the mongols. I remembered him since it was after his death Moscow princes gained grand princedom, so it was a huge thing, so I thought first it was him. But yeah, one from Chernigov checks out by spelling logic. But both should be on the list, and ideallly you should be able to separate them. Oh. and there is another Mikhail of Tver, son of Yuri Dolgorukyi. Ruled one year, have no idea why they canonised him.

If they will put EVERY canonised Rurikid prince even untll 1337, this list is gonna be a mess :(
 
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Yeah no, I don't really like this kind of approach. I'd rather all these characters have modern Ukrainian names instead of having the names be arbitrarily assigned based on where they ruled.
Kniaz Vseslav of Polotsk (who isn't a saint iirc?) ruled Kyiv for like half a year - should he be named in Ukrainian then?
Kniaz Volodymyr (Volodimer?) the Great of Kyiv started out as Kniaz of Novgorod and won the Kyivan throne through a civil war, so would that make him "russian" or "Ukrainian"?
Well, all Westerners refer to them by their modern Russian names simply because Russia promoted them this way, not because they called themselves this way. This is still a game, and I would not overcomplicate it. As @Ratstranger mentioned in the previous comment, the territory with which the prince is most associated, that culture and dialect it should belong to.

You are right, I used Vseslav simply as the most famous Polatskian prince; he ruled for ~50 years in Polatsk and half a year in Kyiv, so yes, he should be Polatskian Usyaslaw:D Similarly, Mikhail of Tver and Andrey Bogolyubskiy must be spelled in Russian.

If we delve into further details, the fall of the reduced vowels started in the XI century, as well as i-y mixing and interchanging in the Southern Rus dialects. So, for some of the saints of the XII–XIII centuries, your suggested transliteration maybe was not already valid :D
This is going to be a mess then. The current approach is comprehensive and consistent.


All of this is really arbitrary, plus - there are no separate Belarusian and Ukrainian languages at the start of EUV, so if we assign Ruthenian culture to the Rus' princes do we use Ukrainian or Belarusian names?
Ruthenian culture is the one around Kyiv in the game. So I meant this specific culture only and it uses Ukranian dialect for characters and locations naming.
 
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I can't say I like this approach, it's artificial and a bit revisionist-y, but it's the only possible way I see not to cause some row and confuse everyone and actually somewthat useful to differentiate them without patronymics. At least name gives you hint where is he from as opposed to just tons of "Mikhail".
 
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A number of Bulgarian Saints are not shown in the picture and there seems to not be a lot of place in that screenshot to scroll down.

List of saints of Bulgaria in chronological order:

1. Saint Boyan (or Voin) Enravota (died 833). He is the older son of Khan Omortag, he never got to rule and died as a christian martyr.
2. Saint Tsar Boris (died 907) he christianized Bulgaria and was canonized on his death.
3. Saint Ivan Rilski (died 946) A hermit and holy man, who founded the Rila Monastery, canonized on his death.
4. Saint Tsar Peter (died 970) the son of Tsar Simeon the great and grandson of Boris, he was canonized because of his piety, right after his death.
Notice that 3 of the 4 early Bulgarian saints are part of the Krum Dynasty.

The Serbian Saints are also not all there. The biggest missing Saint of Serbia is Saint Sava.
One Bulgarian saint who was particularly popular during the 14th century was Mikhail Voyn (Михаил Воин). He became widely venerated after Tsar Kaloyan removed his remains from his native Potuka (a village in the vicinity of Plovdiv) and interred them in Tarnovo. Mikhail was an 11th-century primicerius in Byzantine service who distinguished himself in warfare against the Muslims in the Catepanate of Italy, according to some he may have been a Paulician whose memory was mythologized as a consequence of Paulician and Orthodox Christian communities intermingling in Thrace. There's quite a bit of info on the saint in Donka Radeva's "ПАВЛИКЯНИ И ПАВЛИКЯНСТВОВ БЪЛГАРСКИТЕ ЗЕМИ", though she focusses heavily on the angle of him being a Paulician figure whose image was "adopted" into Orthodoxy.
 
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