Tinto Flavour #26 - 10th June 2025 - Korea and Manchuria

[Arumdaum]

This is a variant of the Five-Colored Flag used by the Republic of China in 1912, representing the five major ethnic groups of China—Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui, and Tibetan—symbolizing the "Harmony of the Five Races" (Wǔzú Gònghé). It has no connection whatsoever with any alliance involving the Jurchens (form manchu). If drawing a parallel to Europe, the relationship would be akin to that between the Golden Horde and the Soviet Union—there might be some historical linkage, but it is virtually negligible.View attachment 1316460

No, this is a banner used by the Jurchen Jin dynasty, as seen in images such as here:

 

[111asdasd1234]

How many vassals do you need?

Qing: Yes.

View attachment 1316500

Maybe every time Wu Sangui loses a hair, a new vassal is born

 

[Arumdaum]

It appears that much of the feedback related to population has not been applied at all—in fact, it seems to have been reduced. Where did the figure of 2 million come from :^(

I've found an estimate from a Korean economic historian of 12th century Goryeo's population being between 2.5 - 3 million. However, this is by far the lowest population estimate I've found of Goryeo.

 

[Hwann]

At the time of the feedback, users commented that the population of Goryeo is too small than recent academic estimates, along with many data.
And rather, the population of Goryeo decreased in this post.
Why? What's the ground?

 

[Oglesby]

• Not a fan of changing the attribute icon color based on the value, but at least you have the icon in different colors looking better.
• I like the addition of the stats from the country tooltips.
• I would prefer knowing both the number of cities/towns and the total number of provinces.
  • You used to provide the former and now only the latter. Providing both would give a better picture even if it is just 'X of Y'
• I feel like my eyes are brought to the labels of 'Primary Culture' and 'Primary Religion' and not their values. I think that label isn't needed but if you feel it still is I would adjust it to decrease the font size of the label while increasing the font size of the value. I might put the label under the value to further give weight to the value.
• I think the model and background could be composed better by moving the model farther to the right and then altering the shape of the background to a square or portrait size ratio. I would then take the information that it either above the picture or superimposed on the picture (including the flag without the frame) and stack it on the left. You could add the stuff from the country tooltip if you need to fill more space.
• For the diplomacy things at the bottom I would mover the flags over so they are not touching the adornment
• Is the first one an icon for 'IO'? I dislike the UN logo as the icon.
• So Goryeo's suzerain is also an IO?

• The satisfaction donut chart icons look grainy, I think it is because the stark contrast to the back background (which isn't present outside of the chart). I suggest making it transparent and using the bars background color. If that doesn't work I would try the tan of the privilege bar
• Remove the trailing Pipe | from after the Crown power
• Right justify the Satisfaction title
• Having every privilege bars being exactly the same ruins the 'hewn' effect

• Make an ICON for Major reform and use it in the title bar (on the right hand side). We don't need two lines to tell use this every time we look at it.
• Are there Overlord Dynasty Members that are lowborn?
• It feels odd to have 'events' change Reforms, and the presentation of it makes it look odd.
  • Will it indicate which choice was made? (I am assuming this SS if from before the event)
  • Should these be 'Event Modifiers' (i.e. named lists of modifiers) that are in effect when the Reform is active instead?
• The flavor text is not using the width of the panel
• I dislike the double 'can't do this' indicators but this time it doesn't even tell me why.
• Is there ever a time where a reform with be blocked from only change of remove?
• I think that the flavor text box style from events should be used through out. The only change to it I would do is go full justification to get rid of the ragged right side.

• Add classification to sub-title and remove line
  • 'Policy | Legal Code'
• If a list is empty don't show it.
• 'Progress toward' over 'Progress to'

• We don't need the 'Available in...' line as it is represented in the title bar with an icon
• The gear icon modifier looks out of place with the rest of the icon modifiers with the added 3d effects.
• 'Invest in Culture' .................... 'Allowed'

• You can get rid of the banner in the pop-type line as it is indicated in the subtitle.
• Now that there are less things that need to be part of the pop-type line, I would move the 'placement requirements' list back to this line instead of on a line by itself.
• I like the icon for manpower, can it be used everywhere? It helps remind us manpower isn't a pop-type when we see it elsewhere.
• 'Recuit Regiments'........................ 'Allowed' (it is part of the 'location' benefits, you don't need to have the Here limiter)
• I like the good 'parchments', I would prefer more variations on the flaws to reduce the sameness.
• I would think using the 'production method' presentation model for the 'requirements for construction' would help with how big these tooltips are getting.
• I just notice the 'Mutually exclusive with Korean Gunnery: Coastal Defense.' in the flavor text of the next one and needed to add that rules and game effects should not be exclusively listed in flavor text. This information needs to be in the crunch section and not the fluff section.

• Can we change the Sailor icon to a single person, this will help remind us that it isn't a specific pop-type but an intermediate currency
• Have you put any though to doing an icon/number treatment for the unit statistics like you did with the country tooltip?
• Un the unit statistics treat icons and % as its own column so the lowest digit of each number at least line up
• What does the 'transport capacity' of 25 manpower mean? Is that supposed to be unit strength, then it needs the 'three guy' icon? Does it mean 25 manpower maintenance amounts? If so that is a weird way to indicate this.
• Color coding means nothing in this case, is cannons green just because it is positive?
  • If I were to color code I would have it be based on the 'generic equivalent of the same age' if nothing else.
  • Optionally, I would have it be base on the 'best equivalent type' that I have access to while pressing a key (like say <alt>)
• I think showing the maintenance amounts for full strength units would be more useful than per capita. If this is showing an under strength unit than it should be for that quantity.
• As this tool tip is ridiculously large, I suggest using the 'production method' presentation model on the two goods lists and then move where the are located.

I'll try to be back for the rest later.

 

[EasterEgg3323]

I've found an estimate from a Korean economic historian of 12th century Goryeo's population being between 2.5 - 3 million. However, this is by far the lowest population estimate I've found of Goryeo.

"그런 가운데 원이 1345년 편찬한 <송사(宋史)>에 고려 인구가 210만 명이란 기사가 전한다. 아마도 위와 같은 경과로 원이 알게 된 대강의 수가 아닐까 여겨진다. 이에 근거해 고려사 연구를 대표하는 박용운 교수는 원이 고려를 침공하기 이전인 12세기의 인구를 250만∼300만 명으로 추산했다."
"Meanwhile, the Song History compiled by Yuan in 1345 states that the population of Goryeo was 2.1 million. This figure was probably obtained by Yuan through the process described above. Based on this, Professor Park Yong-woon, a leading scholar of Goryeo history, estimated the population of Goryeo in the 12th century, before the Yuan invasion, to be between 2.5 and 3 million."

Even those figures are estimates of the population prior to the Yuan-Goryeo War, which is even further in the past than the present.
And the article estimating the population of Goryeo in "Song History" is also just an estimate by an official in the Song envoy's entourage, saying something like, "I think the population of Goryeo is about this much."

 

[matfer13]

Please reconsider the event texts "Manchurian state of Jurchen origins" and "We are the Manchurian first and foremost" text option Replacing "Manchurian" with just "Manchu", is a much more natural option. It is like calling someone from the British Isles Britainian, from Ireland Irelandish, from Germany Germanian, etc. Unless Manchurain is specifically emphasizing the geographic localtion, which still does not make sense since Jurchen identity is tied with the region and there should be no need to emphasize on the geography at all. (Example, if Trebizond conquers Greece and Anatolia, and the event ot rename to Byanztine/Eastern Rome/Whatever reads "Trebezonian state of Pontic origins" and "We are Trebezonian first and foremost")

In that case shouldn't the country be called Manchuria rather than Manchu? To me it makes more sense to name it after the region than the people otherwise it would be like calling England the Kingdom of English

 

[Enku7071]

View attachment 1316505
The evil plot of the northerners to reduce Great Hwan's power. The war will not end in a truce this time >:^(

holy schizophrenia bro

 

[hagul]

I wonder if Goryeo reflected the influence it had on the land and people of the Jurchen.

Goryeo claimed to be a descendant of Goguryeo and desperately wanted to take back the land that had once belonged to Goguryeo. This was later revealed when it requested Yi Seong-gye to conquer Liaodong.

Additionally, Yi Seong-gye exercised strong influence over some Jurchen people. Yi Seong-gye, the first king of joseon, was from "Ssangsŏng Prefecture". Ssangsŏng Prefecture was part of goryeo, before mongol's invade, but at that time, it was ruled by goryeo-yuan people. They betrayed Yuan, when Yuan is fallen and Goryeo tried independance from Yuan. In this background, Yi Seong-gye had great power on Goryeo and Jurchen and it continued after becoming king. He lost influence of Jurchen after Strife of Princes by his fifth Son(King Taejong, the father of King Sejong).

In this regard, I would like to know whether Goryeo's interest in the north or Yi Seong-gye's influence on the Jurchen is reflected.

 

[honkajoki]

maneuverability forces them to take a more defensive role in battles

Maneuverability, or lack of maneuverability, low maneuverability, slow maneuverability, or something like that?

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Yes, that's the idea.

Can there be an option/rule for the word to be "Da" instead of "Great"? Just a personal preference thing but I always liked and thought it was cooler to have "Da Ming", "Da Qing", "Da Yuan" etc. as opposed to "Great".

 

[tinto²]

They are a vassal of Yuan directly

Tamna was a vassal of Goryeo based on the year 1337.

The Tamna Chonggwanbu (Tamna Supervising Directorate) was abolished in 1301, and at King Chungnyeol's request, the Tamna Gunmin Manho-bu (Tamna Military and Civilian Myriarchy) was established.

Subsequently, Goryeo sent a Manho and a Jeju Moksa to Tamna to govern it.

Of course, both local Tamna residents and Mongol Mokho resisted this Goryeo rule. However, Goryeo dispatched Anmusa and Seonmusa to appease the public sentiment in Tamna that was rebelling against Goryeo's rule.

The Mokho Rebellion in 1372 occurred in this process due to the resisting Mongol Mokho.

 

[Freshplayer]

In that case shouldn't the country be called Manchuria rather than Manchu? To me it makes more sense to name it after the region than the people otherwise it would be like calling England the Kingdom of English

There was never a country called Manchuria in the Manchu language. In the Manchu language, Manchukuo was written as "Manju Gurun", rather than "Manchuria", similar to the "French State" via "France". They never invented such a thing in the Manchu language, even when they were under literally "Empire of Manchuria", and the only equivalent in Manchu for Manchuria is "Mukden Tala", lit. where we thrived.

I agreed that the adjective could be better. However, the main point is that Manchu is unrelated to any placename.

According to Aisin Gioro Ulhicun, Manchu is not a geographical name but an adjective that represents "brave." As we can see, Daichin Gurun (Da Qing; Great Qing) expressed the same meaning. In the Manchu language, the only equivalent term to Manchuria is "Mukden Tala". You can't find any Manchu dictionary that agrees that "Manchu" has a geographical meaning.

The term "Manju" in the Jurchen language was also the name for Li Manzhu, the third-generation chieftain of Jianzhou Wei, who united all the Jianzhou Jurchen under his flag for the first time, while the official records of the Qing Dynasty claimed that "manju" derived from "Manjusuri", particularly the honorific title "Emperor Manjushri" given by Tibetan Buddhism.

 

[Freshplayer]

Can there be an option/rule for the word to be "Da" instead of "Great"? Just a personal preference thing but I always liked and thought it was cooler to have "Da Ming", "Da Qing", "Da Yuan" etc. as opposed to "Great".

You mean daicing gurun (ᡩᠠᡳᠴᡳᠩ ᡤᡠᡵᡠᠨ)

 

[Arumdaum]

Is there any way to incorporate Muism into the game? Considering that I think that it rather than Buddhism would have been more relevant to the everyday lives of Koreans, despite syncretism

 

[Arumdaum]

You mean daicing gurun (ᡩᠠᡳᠴᡳᠩ ᡤᡠᡵᡠᠨ)

And Aisin Gurun before the rebrand!

 

[RandomTsar]

Is the mandate of heaven an actual system or is it just a flavor thing? If Korea somehow takes out all of Yuan / Ming do they get something special or just being a big blob?

 

[Arumdaum]

Also, I'm wondering if the yangban might better represent the clergy rather than the nobility, especially under Joseon, when Buddhism was suppressed and Neo-Confucianism was the state ideology

 

[SilverMW]

I'd like to point the elephant (horse?, dragon?) in the room...
What does "Sinicized" means and what mechanics are involved?

 

[juanfegonzalezce]

Are we going to get a Tinto Flavour related to (post) colonial nations in the Americas? I hope so, they were rather dull and lacked lots of depth back in EU4, specially considering the interesting and complex histories of places such as New France, New Granada, Colonial Brazil and the Thirteen Colonies. It'd be a shame that colonial nations are just generic and boring entities regardless of what country creates them.

(Sorry if this is out of topic, I just didn't know where else to post it.)