Tinto Talks #66 - 4th of June 2025

[Lazlo93]

I find it a little bit inconsistent with the choice of madhab and theology being in one list. I would prefer for Atari, Maturidi, etc. not to be on the list as there is nothing to stop you from being an Atari and a Hanbali or even a Hanafi and Atari, although certain theologies predominate within certain regions so often you see theologies and schools of jurisprudence pair up.

I can understand adding the Sufi orders for alternative flavour, but I do like the comments saying that they might work better as a building based country.

However, I think it would be more internally consistent if the theological groups were removed from a list of 'schools'.

Other than that... I really like this system.


The only other contentious one could be Wahhabi as it's an exonym. It is very rare for someone to call themselves a Wahhabi, it's more often used as a label by their critics. But if it is specifically for a Najdi event or situation I suppose we all know what it means, a bit like Byzantine. But Salafi could be much broader if it's meant to represent the whole 'revivalist' movement, or if it isn't for a specific Najdi flavour, it might be unnecessary as, once again, the groups that most often get labelled Wahhabi would either be Hanbalis or, if it's just an exonym for Salafis, Salafis can actually follow any school as Salafiyah refers more to a methodology rather than a different school of jurisprudence.

incorrect, you can't for example be a Hanbali and Ashari/Maturidi

 

[Lazlo93]

Differences in fiqh were actually of practical importance because that's what determined the legal system of your country. Scholars were primarily trained within the madhhab tradition because their main job was interpreting the law, not interpreting theological questions. I'm having a great deal of difficulty thinking of examples of historical episodes where differences in creed had any sort of real-world impact on affairs of state during this time period, besides the very late emergence of Wahhabism (which you could just as easily interpret as a movement within the Hanbali madhhab as one within the Athari creed).

So what we've got is a situation where 1) law matters a lot more than theology to the rulers and the religious scholars alike and 2) schools of theology are mostly aligned with the schools of law anyway (Hanafis are almost always Maturidis, Hanbalis are Atharis, etc). I really don't see the point of modeling the schools of theology for Sunnis at all.

the differences are not that big except for Hanafi and others (in Jizya for example). most differences are from how you do worships.

the 'impact' you mentioned wasn't seen because the dominance of Ashari/Maturidi especially Ashari in suppressing Athari creed. most Sunni states at this time period were either Ashari or Maturidi and both Ashari/Maturidi get along well while Atharis more often than not were forced to be peripheral figures until the emergence of Ibn Taymiyyah. you only need to see how the impact of Mihna and Asharis-Hanbalis/Atharis beef in the 9-10th century or when Ibn Taymiyyah appeared to see that creedal differences are much more taken seriously than fiqh differences.

 

[HansFlammenwerfer]

the differences are not that big except for Hanafi and others (in Jizya for example). most differences are from how you do worships.

the 'impact' you mentioned wasn't seen because the dominance of Ashari/Maturidi especially Ashari in suppressing Athari creed. most Sunni states at this time period were either Ashari or Maturidi and both Ashari/Maturidi get along well while Atharis more often than not were forced to be peripheral figures until the emergence of Ibn Taymiyyah. you only need to see how the impact of Mihna and Asharis-Hanbalis/Atharis beef in the 9-10th century or when Ibn Taymiyyah appeared to see that creedal differences are much more taken seriously than fiqh differences.

So true, I can't wait to larp as the neo-abbasid empire & re-establish the mihna

 

[Fallen Comet]

For a religion that has impacted world history massively, this to be honest is a truly disappointing dev diary....

I expected more, but seems like islam is there just because it is.

The systems are clearly made in a hurry without much thought deducing from the info we got, a lot of stuff is just weird and not right.

Sufi orders should be buildings, the bektashi being a military order.

I hope mamluks, janissaries etc get their own institution too represented by a character.

All in all a real disappointment, seems like a modified EU4 copy paste lol.

I atleast hope there is SOME interaction between muslim countries like the christians get through the church, cardinals, bulls, holy leaugue,... etc

Islam in EU4 was barebones and centered around the piety system and that was really it. 2 exploit clicks.

There should be funds to do missions, give zakah to another muslim country, establish trade relations with pagan countries, buildings to set up your own hajj company and infrastructure in the indian ocean and cross the middle east,...

I hope they do add more flavor for Islam, one thing that particularly bugs me is that Muslim’s can’t marry Christians. Which is not true, as historical alliances and diplomacy such as Ottoman-Serbian marriages were crucial for the region.

And they were Muslim-Christian.

There should be a system that outlaws Usury, Islam doesn’t allow it. And governments would levy land tax for crops, or Jizya (Tax on Dhimmis).

Or a pre sell future goods and be indebted to pay them later.

There are ways governments went around taking interest based loans. And this should be represented.

 

[Fallen Comet]

No, I'm probably the least islamophobic guy you'd ever meet in real life. I think I'm probably more respectful towards muslims than 99% of people on this forum. I actually own a Quran in my personal library. I'm the kind of guy who would support legislation for taxpayer funded female circumcisions in accordance with sharia law. Yes, because that way we can ensure the method is both safe and effective, and the result is satisfactory.

Alif Lam Mim

May God guide you.

No, I'm probably the least islamophobic guy you'd ever meet in real life. I think I'm probably more respectful towards muslims than 99% of people on this forum. I actually own a Quran in my personal library. I'm the kind of guy who would support legislation for taxpayer funded female circumcisions in accordance with sharia law. Yes, because that way we can ensure the method is both safe and effective, and the result is satisfactory.

Alif Lam Mim

I’m quite baffled at your response, I’ll just take your word that you meant nothing by your statement. I’m sorry if I seemed aggressive.

“Allāh does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allāh loves those who act justly.“ 60:8

 

[Fallen Comet]

​

Finally, there are a couple of unique buildings available for Islamic countries:

View attachment 1312582
View attachment 1312585​

I believe the Madrasah should add towards legalism, Sufi lodges add towards mysticism. Especially towards Sufi lodges which are not traditional (in a religious sense) at all or anywhere in Islamic legislation.

In Damascus, Mamluks, Ibn Taymiyyah the major scholar criticized such Sufi lodges.

In the Maghrib, Muslim following the Māliki school of thought would have tensions with Sufi teachings.

Generally speaking, Sufi lodges should be a building that adds towards mysticism as opposed to legalism.

 

[Fallen Comet]

Bringing back the instant manpower buttons was a bad call. Overall a really disappointing dev diary when compared the the 4 Christian dev diaries.

Also is druze not considered part of the Islamic group? I can see why it wouldn't but am curious to how it's defined.

They are not considered Islamic, they themselves don’t consider themselves Muslims.

And I gotta say, I don’t like the instant manpower. So perhaps they should do something like +25% manpower for a duration of time. Something like that, to simulate recruiting from Muslim populations.

What I still don’t understand is why that action would decrease piety. It’s pious to be enlisted as a “Mujahid” (One who fights for the sake of Islam).

So the whole system seems lackluster to me. It never made sense in eu4 for me to suddenly enlist 30,000 men out of nowhere in a single day.

 

[Snies124]

May God guide you.

I’m quite baffled at your response, I’ll just take your word that you meant nothing by your statement. I’m sorry if I seemed aggressive.

“Allāh does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allāh loves those who act justly.“ 60:8

Amen to that brother

 

[Froonk]

No, I'm probably the least islamophobic guy you'd ever meet in real life. I think I'm probably more respectful towards muslims than 99% of people on this forum. I actually own a Quran in my personal library. I'm the kind of guy who would support legislation for taxpayer funded female circumcisions in accordance with sharia law. Yes, because that way we can ensure the method is both safe and effective, and the result is satisfactory.

Alif Lam Mim

Very transparent, but I guess that's the goal?

Nevertheless, you can look at registers for marriages in Islamic countries since these are court affairs thus heavily documented. In general if there is to be a broad rule the legal maturity for marriage was considered 13 for girls and 15 for boys. However it was more common for urban dwellers to marry later, with Ottomans being an extreme example with a lot of marriages taking place in late 20s for both. Rural marriages are a bit harder to track because they didn't always legalize their marriage immediately if there wasn't an available court nearby but there are a lot of court cases where teens, usually 15-16, being married by court because they were caught having sex by their parents who took it to court (usually the girl's family, but not always).

As for female circumcision, this is more of a cultural practice in regions of Africa (Egypt and Sudan especially, where practice predates Islam) though certain Islamic scholars have given opinions on that this is allowed particularly those following Shafi'i jurisprudence and others said it is not. Still this was not practice in much of the Muslim world simply because it wasn't part of the local cultural practices outside of Eastern Africa, except with certain Kurdish regional practices though not with all Kurdish populations.

 

[Snies124]

Very transparent, but I guess that's the goal?

Nevertheless, you can look at registers for marriages in Islamic countries since these are court affairs thus heavily documented. In general if there is to be a broad rule the legal maturity for marriage was considered 13 for girls and 15 for boys. However it was more common for urban dwellers to marry later, with Ottomans being an extreme example with a lot of marriages taking place in late 20s for both. Rural marriages are a bit harder to track because they didn't always legalize their marriage immediately if there wasn't an available court nearby but there are a lot of court cases where teens, usually 15-16, being married by court because they were caught having sex by their parents who took it to court (usually the girl's family, but not always).

As for female circumcision, this is more of a cultural practice in regions of Africa (Egypt and Sudan especially, where practice predates Islam) though certain Islamic scholars have given opinions on that this is allowed particularly those following Shafi'i jurisprudence and others said it is not. Still this was not practice in much of the Muslim world simply because it wasn't part of the local cultural practices outside of Eastern Africa, except with certain Kurdish regional practices though not with all Kurdish populations.

I'm a live and let live kind of dude. I'm not going to judge you for your culture .

 

[Froonk]

I'm a live and let live kind of dude. I'm not going to judge you for your culture .

Inadvertent misunderstanding or deliberate misrepresentation then refusing to acknowledge said is not being nonjudgmental. This attitude amounts to obstinate ignorance at best or transparent bigotry more commonly as judgment requires knowledge of the topic at hand and you don't seem to be particularly capable of passing judgment.

 

[Gurtannon]

It is confirmed that Buddhism religion group has also unique mechanics for its each member Religion

Others:
Dharmic religion group: unique mechanics for Sikhism, Hinduism
Christianity: Unique Mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, And Reformed
Buddhism: Unique Mechanics for Buddhism, Shinto

This means Islam is the only major religion group in the game which its sects are identical and copy paste of each other, Shia and Sunni was very different, they also require some different mechanics especially for the interaction between Schools, Ibadi is more hilarious as its flavour is being able to take both schools of Sunni and Shia lol

 

[Fallen Comet]

Damn that's a lot of infidels.

Calm yourself

 

[Fallen Comet]

Technically it is a hard-core mysticist branch of sunnism, so it isnt wrong.

No it’s not.

 

[Abu Ahmar]

the differences are not that big except for Hanafi and others (in Jizya for example). most differences are from how you do worships.

the 'impact' you mentioned wasn't seen because the dominance of Ashari/Maturidi especially Ashari in suppressing Athari creed. most Sunni states at this time period were either Ashari or Maturidi and both Ashari/Maturidi get along well while Atharis more often than not were forced to be peripheral figures until the emergence of Ibn Taymiyyah. you only need to see how the impact of Mihna and Asharis-Hanbalis/Atharis beef in the 9-10th century or when Ibn Taymiyyah appeared to see that creedal differences are much more taken seriously than fiqh differences.

The mihna is well before the timeframe of the game, and Ibn Taymiyya was not a particularly influential figure during his lifetime as a scholar (as opposed to a hero of anti-Mongol resistance). He was one of the peripheral figures you mention. Atharism was nothing more than the house creed of the Hanbali madhhab and the Hanbali madhhab was by far the least influential and relevant of the four madhhabs. So I'm just not seeing where you're deriving this supposed impact of creedal differences from.

Not only are the schools of theology politically irrelevant, they coincide with the madhhabs on an almost one-to-one basis. Why model them at all? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Fallen Comet]

Let's say I'm playing a Sunni Din-i Ilahi country in India. What holy sites are available for pilgrimage (relations permitting)?

Din I ilahi is the opposite of Sunni (Ahlus Sunnah). That doesn’t make sense, Din I Ilahi is more syncretic than Sunni.

 

[Fallen Comet]

The mihna is well before the timeframe of the game, and Ibn Taymiyya was not a particularly influential figure during his lifetime as a scholar (as opposed to a hero of anti-Mongol resistance). He was one of the peripheral figures you mention. Atharism was nothing more than the house creed of the Hanbali madhhab and the Hanbali madhhab was by far the least influential and relevant of the four madhhabs. So I'm just not seeing where you're deriving this supposed impact of creedal differences from.

Not only are the schools of theology politically irrelevant, they coincide with the madhhabs on an almost one-to-one basis. Why model them at all? It just doesn't make sense.

He was incredibly influential in the Mamluks. What are you talking about?

 

[Froonk]

He was incredibly influential in the Mamluks. What are you talking about?

This doesn't make any sense, Egypt before Ottomans was firmly Shafi'i and Ashari, producing some of the most important Ashari figures of the time. After Ottomans conquered it the legal system mostly used Ottoman norms, which is just Hanafi and Maturidi. Ibn Taymiyyah became important to revivalists much later in the period. He had some pull in some of the fundamentalist movements in Ottoman Empire too like Kadizadeli movement but that itself was a populist movement of public discontent and not one from the Ulema itself. In general Salafi-type creeds were something that was either fringe or populist in nature, never something that became influential at a state level until modern era.

 

[Abu Ahmar]

He was incredibly influential in the Mamluks. What are you talking about?

As a scholar? Absolutely not! He was a rabble-rouser who kept getting thrown in prison. I'm struggling to understand how you could possibly consider him "influential."

 

[Froonk]

As a scholar? Absolutely not! He was a rabble-rouser who kept getting thrown in prison. I'm struggling to understand how you could possibly consider him "influential."

I mean he had influence even if as a rabble-rouser, though his influence grew after his own lifetime in particular as criticism of state often came with an accusation of impiety leading to things like corruption and religious innovation which were seen as cause of instability so public discontent with state and government which fed fundamentalist movements sought his teachings or at least commentaries on his teachings what with him being an impassioned and controversial person. It's just this happened mostly at a dissident level and not from government or ulema side, so they fell out of orthodox understanding and were seen as a type of excess, much like certain Sufi lodges were seen as in excess with their practices.