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Tinto Talks #67 - 11th of June 2025 - Shinto and Shogunate

Hello, and welcome to another issue of happy Wednesdays Tinto Talks. Today, we will be taking a look at the mechanics for Shintō and the Shogunate.

Let’s start with the religion. In EUV, it is part of the Buddhist religious group:
Shinto Tooltip.png

Shinto Panel.png

As you can see, Shintō has two currencies: Honor and Purity. Besides being modified through events and the actions we’ll talk about in a bit, one thing to note is that fighting in battles will decrease your purity (due to the fact that blood is considered impure). Having high purity will allow the accumulation of honor, which will be able to be used for other actions, while having low purity would make people perceive you as an Oni on Earth, which may also have its benefits.
Purity.png

The different actions in the panel are ways of regaining purity, from the more simple ones of spending prestige or money for a cleansing ritual or a pilgrimage respectively, to the more expensive ones of offering a work of art or even the life of the ruler.

Besides these actions, the religion also features an International Organization, where countries can interact with the different factions present there. At start, there are three factions present: the Imperial Court, the Shogunate Court, and the Religious Sects, although more factions can appear in the future related to some other religious followers…

Each faction has some actions available, at the cost of honor, although not all the factions will be available to all countries. For example, if you are at war with the current Shōgun, you will not be able to access the actions of the shogunate court, for obvious reasons.
Shinto IO.png

Expansion Action.png

Demand Extra Payment.png

Appease Temples.png

Some of the actions of the Religious Sects will allow the country to interact with the mechanics of other Buddhist religions, but you will have to wait for future Tinto Talks for an explanation on those.

Shintō also gives access to some unique advances, like for example:
Matsuri.png

Nanto Rokushu.png

Shinbutsu.png

Kagura.png

Hachiman Worship.png

Let’s now move to talk about the Shogunate, which is present in the game as an International Organization:
Shogunate Tooltip.png

Shogunate.png

There is currently a bug with the ruler’s name not appearing in the proper order, it will be fixed.

There’s two types of special statues in the Shogunate International Organization: the Sugo and the Emperor (or Emperors in this case, more on that on Friday). The Emperor is the one that is “technically” the ruler of Japan (although the one actually in charge is the shōgun), while the Shugo are provincial governors, giving them some nice bonuses.
Shugo.png

There’s an action for the shōgun to either grant or revoke the governorship of a province, while the individual clans also have the option of basically becoming a de-facto shugo if they manage to establish enough presence in a particular province.
Shogunate Laws and Actions.png

However, these actions will only be available as long as the Shogunate itself has the appropriate law, and will be disabled once it centralizes control.
Residence Law.png

Becoming the leader of the Shogunate is something that is not granted, and instead it has to be earned. The first step to take is to obtain the backing of the imperial court, with the action Become Shōgun of the Imperial Court faction in the Sintō IO:
Become Shogun.png

This will grant a modifier directly to the ruler (not the country), and a casus belli to declare war on the current leader of the shogunate. If the war is declared and won while still having the same ruler, a special peace treaty can be enacted forcing the change of leadership.

And that is all for today. Tomorrow we have the ‘Behind the Music of Europa Universalis V - Composing the Grandest Score’ video, and on Friday we will be back with a further look at flavor content for Japan (and the Japanese clans), as well as the situations of the Nanbokucho and Sengoku Jidai. See you there.

And remember, Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
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How long shogunate stay around when you play in Japan? In eu4 after 20-30 years you were able to gobble up all Japan and play like a normal country. It would be shame if you can conquer super fast and miss all content.
 
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Most of these mechanisms are quite good. However, categorising Shinto under Buddhism feels as awkward to me as grouping Haitian Vodou under Christianity. Couldn’t we establish a separate category for Shinto alone, assuming all other factors—such as its relationship with various Buddhist sects—remain unchanged? Perhaps it’s just my obsessive tendencies…
No, the religious identity of Japan was clearly Buddhist, that's why it's in the Buddhist group.
 
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I hope that the Daimyos flags are still WIP, the mons look fine but there are too many flags with black mon on white background and vice versa I hope you keep adding colours(preferibly based on their map colour like in EU4), it shouldn't be a problem since most clans didn't have specific ones
Black and white is quite a common combination for flags in Japan, that's why there's so many of them.
 
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Shinto IO.png


One question: does these actuins have cooldown period, and if so, how long would that be?
Also, does the amount of stuffs player can click and get scales up, and if so, with the player or with the target nations?
Thanks in advance.
 
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It's because blood is impure, so if you spill blood you get tainted.
Although I am not an expert in Japanese religion, as a researcher of Asian history, I have to say that this understanding makes me very confused.
The filthiness of blood in Shintoism lies in the distinction between classes. Samurai in the Genpei War (12th century) also believed that blood should not be shed in battle, unless the person being knocked down is of higher or equal status than oneself. This means that it is not allowed to cut and kill people of lower rank to the point of bleeding.
 
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Anything about adoption? I think that is a pretty big thing in medieval Japan. Also, what is the flag with three 大 in the lower right corner? A simplified version of 大一大万大吉?
 
They cannot take the Shogunate itself, they will have to dismantle it.
It's to represent the general interactions with the court, no matter which one your clan supports.
Hello,

I've been following the recent Q&A on the forum with great interest, and your answers have sparked a couple of follow-up questions regarding how some of Japan's more complex historical situations might be handled in-game.

1. On the aftermath of an Imperial Restoration:

Your response clarified that if the Emperor were to take direct control, the Shogunate IO would be dismantled, not taken over. That makes perfect sense.

This got me thinking about the historical precedent of the Kenmu Restoration. After overthrowing the Kamakura Shogunate, Emperor Go-Daigo didn't rule without a military apparatus. Instead, he established his own regional military governments to manage the samurai class. The most notable of these were the Ōshū Shōgunfu (Mutsu Shogunate) in the north and the Kamakura Shōgunfu in the east.

To add another layer of historical complexity, it's worth remembering that the Kenmu government itself operated with a dual-power system at the provincial level. While Go-Daigo established these new military commands, he also appointed his own civilian governors (Kokushi) in an attempt to reassert traditional Imperial authority, placing them alongside the existing military governors (Shugo). This created inherent conflict within the provinces, with two competing sources of local authority.

So, my question is: Could the game mechanics support a scenario where, after a successful Imperial Restoration and the dismantling of the Ashikaga Shogunate, the Emperor could establish new, loyal military commands?

This could be a fascinating gameplay path. Instead of just removing the Shogunate system, the player achieving restoration would face a new challenge: building a new, Emperor-controlled military structure from scratch. They would have to manage not only these new "Imperial Shogunates" to prevent them from becoming too independent, but also the provincial-level tension between their court-appointed Kokushi and the warrior-class Shugo. It would perfectly represent the historical difficulty of a civilian court trying to control a warrior class.

2. On the mechanics of a "split" Shogunate:

I found your solution for the two Emperors of the Nanboku-chō period (representing it as a general interaction with "the Court") to be very elegant.

That leads me to a related question about a split Shogunate. In several instances, Japan effectively had two rival shogunates vying for legitimacy. This happened during the Kannō Disturbance, the Ōnin War, and for decades after the Meiō Coup. During the Ōnin War, for example, both the Western and Eastern camps had their own "Shogun," appointed their own officials, and claimed to be the legitimate government.

My question is: How might the game mechanics represent a situation with two competing Shogunates?

  • Would this result in two parallel Shogunate IOs?
  • Could both the Eastern and Western Shoguns appoint different daimyō as the Shugo (Military Governor) for the very same province, creating a "contested title" situation?
  • Would a player be forced to align with one Shogunate, with each having its own set of vassals and authority mechanics to manage?
  • How would such a "dual authority" conflict be resolved in-game? Would it purely be through military conquest, or could one Shogunate's legitimacy diplomatically collapse if it loses the support of key daimyō or the Imperial Court?
Understanding how the game might model this ultimate political chaos, where the very definition of "legitimate government" was fractured, would be fascinating.

Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions and engage with the community!


 
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I think it's be more natural English for the Shinto description should say "tied to and blended with" rather than "tied and blended with".
In the Imperial Court actions, "Get Marriage" sounds blunt and informal, something like "Obtain Marriage" would be better, and in the Religious Sects actions "Keep Kami and Buddha Balanced" is a bit verbose, I think "Balance Kami and Buddha" is cleaner.

Since you've got Shinbutsu Shugo as an advance, why not use that as the name for the religion?

Hachiman Worship should say "Hachiman is one of the most venerated divinities".

The Shogunate system looks very cool, do the Shugo provinces correspond to the province map mode? Can there only be one shugo daimyo in each province?
Implemented the suggestions (although we prefer to keep Shinto as the name of the religion).
The Shugo system takes into account all the historical provinces, not only the ones corresponding to game provinces.
 
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The shogunate had too few political layers. There should have been at least 3 Kanrei (管領) as the shogun's assistants, who were equivalent to the shogun's highest agents in areas that he could not directly govern.. In the 14th century, the shogunate usually appointed three clans as Kanrei.
There is also something for the Kanrei.
 
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OK, what are the limits on "invite new members" action for the shogunate? Who does the inviting? Shogun? Emperor? Any member? And can I be invited as, for example, Kongo? And then, after I convert to Shinto, can I become Congolese shogun? Also, can an outside tag become an overlord of a daimyo? Finally, is there a way to claim the shogunate while not being Shinto?
 
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