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Tinto Talks #71 - 9th of July 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will talk about the Tonal religions! This is a religious group that covers the Mesoamerican religions:

Tonal Religions.jpg

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D Art as WIP.



Nahua Ritualism

Let's start with Nahua Ritualism, which is the religion in the group that has more detailed features:
Nahua Ritualism.jpg

This is the panel of the religion:
Nahua Panel1.jpg

Nahua Panel2.jpg

Let’s start with the core mechanic of the Nahua Ritualism, an old EU4 friend, Doom:
Doom.jpg

Doom2.jpg

Doom3.jpg

As you can see, Doom accumulates over time, and the bigger the country is, the more Doom it accumulates. It can be mitigated either by performing some mechanics, such as killing enemies and looting locations, or by some of the Religious Actions. But there’s only one way of completely escaping from it, which is Reforming the religion. This can be achieved by passing by enough Religious Focuses, the former EU4 ‘Reforms’:
Religion Focuses.jpg

These Focuses are a necessary pain, as they give a debuff to your country while they’re active, but you need to accumulate some of them to be able to reform the religion. Here you have some of them.
Elevate God.jpg

Gods1.jpg

Gods2.jpg


Establish Cihuacoatl.jpg


Institute the Flower Wars.jpg


Raise Sacrifice Rate.jpg

Raise Sacrifice Rate2.jpg

These are the available Religious Actions:
Appease Gods.jpg


Host a Ceremony.jpg


War Path.jpg

Flower Wars.jpg

The last action, Reform Society, allows to Reform the religion when enough Religious Aspects have been enforced, but it has a big con: It triggers a disaster, 'Reform Society', which needs to be resolved to become a 'Reformed Nahuatl Society':
Reform Society.jpg

Reform Society Disaster.jpg

Reformed Nahuatl Society.jpg

Reformed Nahua Ritualism.jpg



Maya Ritualism

Let’s talk now about another of the Tonal religions - Maya Ritualism:
Maya Religion Panel.png

Different from Nahua Ritualism, Maya Ritualism doesn’t have any Doom, but centers instead around the concept of the K’atun.
Katun.png

The mechanic revolves around preparing for the K’atun celebrations every 20 years in the game. The player needs to invest resources using the different actions to raise the country’s preparations for the K’atun, measured with the Religious Influence currency.

The country can choose between three degrees of intensity in their preparations, and that will impact the effects they get while preparing for it.
Katun modifier.png

The K’atun will happen on the actual dates according to the historical Maya calendar, so the first one to encounter once the game starts will be in September 1342, with the following ones occurring every 19.7 years (so they will not always be on the same month). Once the K’atun finishes, the country will get an event with different outcomes depending on how much preparation they have been able to accomplish, as well as resetting the value of preparation back to 0.
Katun event.png

Katun bad option.png

Katun celebrated.png

Katun well celebrated.png

Besides the normal preparations, other additional actions can contribute to the gain of Religious Influence:
Maya Sacrifice.png

Maya Pilgrimage.png

The religion also has other ways to spend the Religious Influence before the end of the K’atun comes, although at the risk of not being fully prepared when it does.
Maya Celebration.png

The modifier granted by the celebration will be different depending on the date on which the ceremony is hosted, varying according to the historical Uinal.

Same as Nahua Ritualism, Maya Ritualism also has gods, some of them are actually the same ones with different names (so we have dynamic naming for gods). For example, Quetzalcōātl and Kukulkan are the same god with dynamic naming.
Mayan Gods.png



Tonal
This mechanics for gods is common to all Tonal religions, as well as many of the Folk Religions. We can now show the religion we have decided to call Tonal, namesake of the Tonal group, gathering under its umbrella beliefs related to those of the Nahua and Maya, but still distinct.
Tonal Panel.png

Tonal Gods.png

The gods of a country of these religions are always present for the countries, but the countries can choose a Religious Aspect to worship a specific god as their patron, doubling the effects of such a god.
Tonal Aspects.png

And that’s all for today! We will come back on Friday, as we will talk in Tinto Flavour about the Aztecs!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 

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Maya Ritualism

Different from Nahua Ritualism, Maya Ritualism doesn’t have any Doom, but centers instead around the concept of the K’atun.

The mechanic revolves around preparing for the K’atun celebrations every 20 years in the game. The player needs to invest resources using the different actions to raise the country’s preparations for the K’atun, measured with the Religious Influence currency.

The country can choose between three degrees of intensity in their preparations, and that will impact the effects they get while preparing for it.

It feels a bit weird that if I get my RI to 49 then I'd still be getting the full debuff, while if I got it to 50/90 I'd get a much much nicer buff. Wouldn't it be better to scale the rewards of the celebration with the amount of RI a country has?

Also (although Idk how impactful it would be to performance) wouldn't it be better to have a decaying buff, rather then a flat modifier for 10 years? I thought that this time you guys were trying to avoid modifier stacking.
 
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Well done paradox, this post will attract all the hidden and last people doing human sacrifices from mesoamerica as they come out of their lair to comment about what needs to be changed for the religion mecanic to be accurate, this way the church can locate them and root them out for good !
 
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In this case, you need to be 'more to the left' than the -80 positions - which means, as Centralized as possible, as the most Centralized possible position is -100; reporting to our UI to improve clarity.
Wouldn't it be better to just say "have at least 80 Centralization" or "have less then 80 Decentralization", for clarity? Considering how central societal values are, I think after a while players will learn which terms refer to which societal values (and which are mutually exclusive with each other) + they are always there in their own menu for consultation (and if I am learning the game I WILL be switching back and forth between menus anyways), so I think keeping the entire sentence is a bit redundant and obfuscates information a bit.
 
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What's enough resources for a the two pass tiers of a K'atun celebration?
With 50 or more Religious Influence your country will be prepared enough, with 90 or more it will be very well prepared, but with 75 or more it will be able to rush the remaining preparations by paying gold and get to the very well prepared bonus.
 
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I would suggest changing the tolerance values of these religions. They should have very high tolerance of heretics, because they did not sharply distinguish between each other in this Nahua/Maya/Tonal/Chichimeca paradigm. They should have decently high tolerance of heathens, considering how they historically syncretized quite a lot with Christianity (much to the displeasure of the Christian hierarchy). As a trade off however, they should have low tolerance of the true faith - rebellions and conflicts were still common, but based off of ethnicity more than religion itself.
 
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Can you talk about how eagle and jaguar warriors work? Also why doesn't the reformed Nahua faith have them?
On Friday, in the Aztec TF!
 
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With 50 or more Religious Influence your country will be prepared enough, with 90 or more it will be very well prepared, but with 75 or more it will be able to rush the remaining preparations by paying gold and get to the very well prepared bonus.
Very well prepared? How about changing it to something like "more than enough prepared"?
 
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I would suggest changing the tolerance values of these religions. They should have very high tolerance of heretics, because they did not sharply distinguish between each other in this Nahua/Maya/Tonal/Chichimeca paradigm. They should have decently high tolerance of heathens, considering how they historically syncretized quite a lot with Christianity (much to the displeasure of the Christian hierarchy). As a trade off however, they should have low tolerance of the true faith - rebellions and conflicts were still common, but based off of ethnicity more than religion itself.
Wasn't that the case for every religion beside the Abrahamic ones?
 
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Okay, seriously, Doom is back?

Why, when it has no links to real Nahua religion do you insist on bringing back the most inaccurate aspect of EU4's mechanics? Where do you get the idea that people rose and sacrificed their rulers? Most sacrifices were prisoners of war, and were not to placate angry gods, but to return the divine energy in a person's heart - their Tyolia - to the sun and keep it - the god Tōnatiuh - shining. This is because the Nahua believed that the world has ended four previous times and is now in the fifth age. The day the world could end was marked as being every 52 years, at the intersections of their solar and ritual calendars, this is the day of the largest ritual observance, the New Fire ceremony.

I can see a mechanic for mass unrest if you don't contribute enough for the New Fire ceremony, but that sacrifice is not only composed of captured prisoners, but also food, drink, and goods. There might also be goods given to the rain or harvest gods or to ancestors for favour.

Where is all the stuff that actually feels like authentic Mesoamerican religion? Where is the practice of stealing defeated group's gods for your pantheon or the effigies of gods brought for rituals and to war - where they might be captured? Where are the god impersonation rituals? Where is the new fire festival that you're actually adulterating with the doom mechanic? The human sacrifice is also far more fascinating than you're making it out to be. Sure, some sacrifices were nobodies, but others were dressed as, and treated as gods for a year before sacrifice - and I don't mean that as a metaphor - they were actually seen as being a living god.

Hopefully that stuff just wasn't talked about, because this is by far the least accurate religious setup so far - and I don't even think it looks nearly as fun as it could be. This is a fascinating religious group and you're just representing the pop-religious aspects. Armies literally stealing the gods of their defeated foes and putting them in their own temples is metal and entirely real, but you focus instead on Apocalypse-Now type representations instead.

(P.S The religion practiced by the Maya should be called 'Maya ritualism', not 'Mayan ritualism'. Mayan is just the name of the language, Maya is the adjective and demonym)

Ok I knew the Doom mechanic wasn't entirely accurate but now I feel robbed lmao. This is much cooler than what we got.
 
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With 50 or more Religious Influence your country will be prepared enough, with 90 or more it will be very well prepared, but with 75 or more it will be able to rush the remaining preparations by paying gold and get to the very well prepared bonus.
Or we can call it achieving "Sufficient Preparation" and "Abundant Preparation" - This makes the options look more official.
 
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Wasn't that the case for every religion beside the Abrahamic ones?
Hmm, I would say this is true for most "animist", "shamanist" and folk religions around the world. I would definitely support generalizing these values to the entire folk religions group.

IMO most Indian and East Asian traditions seem to have had self-identities as distinct phenomena, separate from others (although in the case of Hinduism historically it was several religions, not one), even though they constantly syncretized with one another. Whereas with folk religions around the world, I really see very little discrete religious identity per se, and the main distinction drawn is ethnicity. My personal viewpoint.
 
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Well done paradox, this post will attract all the hidden and last people doing human sacrifices from mesoamerica as they come out of their lair to comment about what needs to be changed for the religion mecanic to be accurate, this way the church can locate them and root them out for good !
You just earned yourself the glorious reward of feeding the gods
1752070494778.png
 
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Besides DOOM, the different effects, the fact that you don't have to pass any religious reform, and the government reform, is there any other difference between a country that has the unreformed Nahua Ritualism and one with the reformed religion?

If I understand correctly, the other religions don't need to be reformed, right?

Could you show us the two government reforms (Altepetl and Reformed Nahua Society)? (NOT Nahuatl, that's a language)

How bad is the disaster?

Edit:
Do you need to have met the Europeans to reform your religion?

Can the AI pass the religious focuses and reform the religion?
 
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