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Tinto Talks #71 - 9th of July 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will talk about the Tonal religions! This is a religious group that covers the Mesoamerican religions:

Tonal Religions.jpg

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D Art as WIP.



Nahua Ritualism

Let's start with Nahua Ritualism, which is the religion in the group that has more detailed features:
Nahua Ritualism.jpg

This is the panel of the religion:
Nahua Panel1.jpg

Nahua Panel2.jpg

Let’s start with the core mechanic of the Nahua Ritualism, an old EU4 friend, Doom:
Doom.jpg

Doom2.jpg

Doom3.jpg

As you can see, Doom accumulates over time, and the bigger the country is, the more Doom it accumulates. It can be mitigated either by performing some mechanics, such as killing enemies and looting locations, or by some of the Religious Actions. But there’s only one way of completely escaping from it, which is Reforming the religion. This can be achieved by passing by enough Religious Focuses, the former EU4 ‘Reforms’:
Religion Focuses.jpg

These Focuses are a necessary pain, as they give a debuff to your country while they’re active, but you need to accumulate some of them to be able to reform the religion. Here you have some of them.
Elevate God.jpg

Gods1.jpg

Gods2.jpg


Establish Cihuacoatl.jpg


Institute the Flower Wars.jpg


Raise Sacrifice Rate.jpg

Raise Sacrifice Rate2.jpg

These are the available Religious Actions:
Appease Gods.jpg


Host a Ceremony.jpg


War Path.jpg

Flower Wars.jpg

The last action, Reform Society, allows to Reform the religion when enough Religious Aspects have been enforced, but it has a big con: It triggers a disaster, 'Reform Society', which needs to be resolved to become a 'Reformed Nahuatl Society':
Reform Society.jpg

Reform Society Disaster.jpg

Reformed Nahuatl Society.jpg

Reformed Nahua Ritualism.jpg



Maya Ritualism

Let’s talk now about another of the Tonal religions - Maya Ritualism:
Maya Religion Panel.png

Different from Nahua Ritualism, Maya Ritualism doesn’t have any Doom, but centers instead around the concept of the K’atun.
Katun.png

The mechanic revolves around preparing for the K’atun celebrations every 20 years in the game. The player needs to invest resources using the different actions to raise the country’s preparations for the K’atun, measured with the Religious Influence currency.

The country can choose between three degrees of intensity in their preparations, and that will impact the effects they get while preparing for it.
Katun modifier.png

The K’atun will happen on the actual dates according to the historical Maya calendar, so the first one to encounter once the game starts will be in September 1342, with the following ones occurring every 19.7 years (so they will not always be on the same month). Once the K’atun finishes, the country will get an event with different outcomes depending on how much preparation they have been able to accomplish, as well as resetting the value of preparation back to 0.
Katun event.png

Katun bad option.png

Katun celebrated.png

Katun well celebrated.png

Besides the normal preparations, other additional actions can contribute to the gain of Religious Influence:
Maya Sacrifice.png

Maya Pilgrimage.png

The religion also has other ways to spend the Religious Influence before the end of the K’atun comes, although at the risk of not being fully prepared when it does.
Maya Celebration.png

The modifier granted by the celebration will be different depending on the date on which the ceremony is hosted, varying according to the historical Uinal.

Same as Nahua Ritualism, Maya Ritualism also has gods, some of them are actually the same ones with different names (so we have dynamic naming for gods). For example, Quetzalcōātl and Kukulkan are the same god with dynamic naming.
Mayan Gods.png



Tonal
This mechanics for gods is common to all Tonal religions, as well as many of the Folk Religions. We can now show the religion we have decided to call Tonal, namesake of the Tonal group, gathering under its umbrella beliefs related to those of the Nahua and Maya, but still distinct.
Tonal Panel.png

Tonal Gods.png

The gods of a country of these religions are always present for the countries, but the countries can choose a Religious Aspect to worship a specific god as their patron, doubling the effects of such a god.
Tonal Aspects.png

And that’s all for today! We will come back on Friday, as we will talk in Tinto Flavour about the Aztecs!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 

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I'm not an expert on Aztec religion by any means, but my undersranding was that their sacrifices were not about appeasing the gods because they were angry, but rather about empowering the gods so they could keep staving off the end of the world.
 
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there are more than 2 million Nahuas in Mexico and some thousands in Central America today, and more than a million speakers of the language. Sure most are not descendants of the Mexica lineage themselves, but that's a super narrow definition considering 'Maya' encompasses a family of ~30 distinct ethnolinguistic groups. There are plenty of other native cultures in Mexico as well

All of them have been fundamentally Christian for centuries but still preserve their culture and traditions too
I stand corrected, my bad. I'll address that in my post.
 
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It makes sense (to me, a heathen) that a religion where you need a continuous stream of human sacrifice would try to get out of this cycle, even if it's by just sacrificing animals instead or whatever. But even then, the current setup feels a bit... baseless. Like, look at the Religious Focuses.

1752074605526.png


What here even tells you that they're getting out of this cyclical madness?

"Elevate our Patron God" why is making yourself henotheistic necessary?
"Establish the Cihuacoatl position" why is establishing a vizier necessary for religious reform?
"Institute the Flower Wars" why are ritual wars of sacrifice necessary?
"Raise Sacrifice Rate" dawg.

Seriously, the more I look at it, the less sense it makes. What are we reforming here, and why? And how do these even contribute to reform?


(I can feel my autism tingling at this, and I didn't even finish my Islam suggestion yet...)
 
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Do I read the tooltip for Doom correctly?
High Doom decreases Stabilty decay. So with higher Doom you stay at an increased stabilty value longer?
 
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I'm not an expert on Aztec religion by any means, but my undersranding was that their sacrifices were not about appeasing the gods because they were angry, but rather about empowering the gods so they could keep staving off the end of the world.
I believe specifically for the aztecs it was the moon and the starts were trying to murder the Sun, and that human blood was necessary to keep the sun going so it wouldn't be murdered. Would that happen the world would end and the Gods would have to pick a new sun god for a new world.
 
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Will the Maya also have a reforming system or is it exclusive to the Nahua? If the Maya do have a reforming system, how does it work without Doom?

It seems to me they don't and tbh it makes sense. The Nahua have this memey Doom mechanic but IRL they still had eschatological views that justified human sacrifice. The Maya religions also had sacrifice but from what I know it wasn't as... necessary...? to keep the world turning.

I believe specifically for the aztecs it was the moon and the starts were trying to murder the Sun, and that human blood was necessary to keep the sun going so it wouldn't be murdered. Would that happen the world would end and the Gods would have to pick a new sun god for a new world.

Ah, so that's why 100 Doom kills our ruler/dynasty. It's a metaphor.
 
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Really not happy to see Doom come back. I'm also kinda confused by the nature of having the religion need to be reformed. What about the existing history of Aztec religion implies the necessity of reformation?

Also, there's are typo here, 10 yeas should be 10 years
1752077938687.png
 
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Oh great one of the worst most ahistorical systems is back, I don't know as much about Mesoamerican history as I'd like to, but I know enough to know that this is... really bad. Like Lord Thanatos said the Doom system absolutely butchers the actual beliefs of the Mexica and other Nahuan peoples.

Also the idea of "reforming" your religion and society as a whole feels a bit racist, it very much plays into the narrative of the Nahua being "primitive" or "savage". Currently it feels like the game exoticises Nahua beliefs instead of accurately representing them, making it seem like it's all just focused around blood and brutality, when it just wasn't. So please make a 180 on the design for the Nahua, It doesn't have to be amazing or in-depth, it just needs to be a representation of the Nahua, not a characterisation of them.
Yea, afaik we haven't seen this with other religious traditions. even though christianity thought that Hinduism and Buddhism were primitive and savage(just read the british views on Indians). Yet there isn't anything about Hinduism or Buddhism being primitive and needing to be reformed. No religion is more primitive or advance then others. Religious traditions can be different but neither is better or worse.
 
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Yea, afaik we haven't seen this with other religious traditions. even though christianity thought that Hinduism and Buddhism were primitive and savage(just read the british views on Indians). Yet there isn't anything about Hinduism or Buddhism being primitive and needing to be reformed. No religion is more primitive or advance then others. Religious traditions can be different but neither is better or worse.
I think there's an argument that a lot of religions need alt-history scenarios that represent the changes they would undergo over time. Buddhism and Hinduism both have a complicated priesthood with them with a canon of holy texts that they draw from, which has helped make them more enduring.

Now I think the aztecs had that to an extent. However arguably the mass conversion to christianity was that religious transformation, but if you want to play the 'classic' version there should be some sort of alternate fork there.

I think though this doesn't necessarilly need to be like a 'complete' reformation, more a series of changes that would codify a few things, but lumping that under a single 'reform/reformed nahautl' makes sense. But I think it needs a different name, cause that doesn't feel very immersive.
 
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1. Estate Satisfaction is also impacted, which is important. But we're open to suggestions for further rebalancing.
2. No, they don't need to be passed in any specific order. When you select a Religious Aspect to implement, it takes some time, which is dynamic and different for each aspect. When the implementation is completed, you can select a different one. So no hard cooldown, just the time each aspect needs to be completed.
3. Naoma.
4. Heretics, correct. And, that will be in the NA and SA map feedback review.
I think action such as pilgrimage and sacrifice should at least have a cooldown.
Edit: not sure for sacrifice though if it cost pop. Do noble blood cost pop?
 
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Also the idea of "reforming" your religion and society as a whole feels a bit racist, it very much plays into the narrative of the Nahua being "primitive" or "savage".
This type of stuff is always only said about non European and Asian societies, you call Germanic, Hun, Mongolic tribes barbaric and everyone agrees (because you can only really agree) but the second someone dares to suggest that maybe having a constant influx of human sacrifices (not to mention the material ones) MAYBE needs to be reformed people start to bring up the racist card
What about reforming to not sacrifice kids to the God of Rain is racist?
In I:R if you play as an illitterate germanic tribe in the middle of nowhere you have to reform into a higher level of governance to progress, is that racist?
No religion is more primitive or advance then others. Religious traditions can be different but neither is better or worse.
Really? So there's no difference between a Buddhist monk and an aztec priest. they do the same job, one isn't worse than the other
Edit because i just thought about this, but putting all religious traditions in the same moral axis is way more racist than calling for a reformation of the mesoamerican religions, what about all the scientific and philosophical progress that Buddhist monks or Catholic priests brought because of their religion, are they on the same moral level as an aztec priest?
 
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I think though this doesn't necessarilly need to be like a 'complete' reformation, more a series of changes that would codify a few things, but lumping that under a single 'reform/reformed nahautl' makes sense. But I think it needs a different name, cause that doesn't feel very immersive.
While I agree that things could change and that could be fun, but what's the argument against having the reforms be inside the religion? It makes a lot more sense to me to have any 'reforms' be just an internal mechanic, like what's done in the rest of the world. I don't see any point in having a separate reformed religion to convert to when it's supposed to be the natural progression of the existing religion.
 
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This type of stuff is always only said about non European and Asian societies, you call Germanic, Hun, Mongolic tribes barbaric and everyone agrees (because you can only really agree) but the second someone dares to suggest that maybe having a constant influx of human sacrifices (not to mention the material ones) MAYBE needs to be reformed people start to bring up the racist card
What about reforming to not sacrifice kids to the God of Rain is racist?
In I:R if you play as an illitterate germanic tribe in the middle of nowhere you have to reform into a higher level of governance to progress, is that racist?

Really? So there's no difference between a Buddhist monk and an aztec priest. they do the same job, one isn't worse than the other
So something I'd like to bring up- human sacrifice isn't unique to the Aztecs and Native-Americans. Christianity has had lots of human-sacrifice. We just identify them as Witch Burnings.

They have the same broad societal purpose, cleansing the community, avoiding the wrath of the gods.

Now someone is going to tell me that the church didn't officially support the witch trials, and I'll rebutt: What does it matter? People on the ground were doing it for religious reasons. When they said God wanted them to burn the Witches, were they lying when they did it?

I'll also note it seems that Paradox has given the Catholics the ability to confirm or deny the existance of witchcraft (with it off in the 1300's as is historical), so it seems that aspect for europeans will be included.
 
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I'm all in for a more accurate representation of the Nahuatl religion. But I don't think it's fair to think a more accurate representation should get rid of human sacrifice (at start), or use the "anti racist" prism of "all religions should be equal under the sun". All religions should be as accurately described as possible, but I think it IS true to history that the Nahuatl DID have a flux of human sacrifices, and as such, weren't "sustainable" on the long term.

So I'd say Lord Thanatos comments are a VERY good feedback (tbh as is most of his religious feedback that I saw) that can (at least partially, or maybe totally) be implemented without resorting to misrepresentations. So the "doom" mechanics could be renamed, and more accurately described in the localization text. And require for proper handling not only human hearts but also food and other materials, but the reformation needed does seem accurate. (maybe however it could be as laws and offer various paths of reform available ? Or maybe it is more fitted for a dlc to give laws and options, no idea)
 
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