132) BUG: We have claims to the title Count of Paradox, Count of Paradox, etc...

[Duuk]

We have claims to the title Count of Paradox, Count of Paradox, Count of Paradox

Multiple instances of the same claim can be had and don't self-filter.

 

[kurtbrian]

would that be because you get each claims because if different circumstances?

I'm not sure it is a bug, but please convince me.

 

[Solmyr]

Well, nearly every circumstance when you get a claim is "different". Still annoying, when you have 50 claims and most of those are duplicates. Hard to read them on your char screen, too.

 

[Duuk]

Well, technically they are probably for different reasons.

But When the Duchess of Apulia dies (my sister), and I already have a claim on the Duchy of Campania (my brother that died 2 years ago), do I really need her claim to it as well?

In game terms, a claim is a claim. I don't get less BB for having 19 claims to the province than I do if I only have 1 claim, which means the extra claims are extraneous. Therefore, they are just more things for the game to track and use RAM/diskspace on that aren't needed.

 

[kurtbrian]

Yes its more data for the game to track.

But can't you loose some claims because of other things interferring?

then you could mayb loose one of the claims but keep the others.
If the game only tracked the first claim, you would end up with no claim if that one was lost

 

[Duuk]

So pretend you lose a war to Bob the WannaBe-Duke. He forces you to give up your claim to the Duchy of Apulia as part of the peace deal.

But you're laughing the whole time you're signing because "ha ha ha, I'll give up my DAD's claim to it, but not my SISTER's claim to it! MUAHAHAHAHAH".

From a game balance/mechanics viewpoint, you should only be allowed 1 claim at a time to the same title.

 

[Derek Pullem]

So pretend you lose a war to Bob the WannaBe-Duke. He forces you to give up your claim to the Duchy of Apulia as part of the peace deal.

But you're laughing the whole time you're signing because "ha ha ha, I'll give up my DAD's claim to it, but not my SISTER's claim to it! MUAHAHAHAHAH".

From a game balance/mechanics viewpoint, you should only be allowed 1 claim at a time to the same title.

Don't think this is right - so if you lose one war / campaign you could be forced to drop every claim your dynasty has to the title. If this was true it would have made the Wars of the Roses much shorter.

 

[Duuk]

Well the peace option says, "Force Bob to surrender his claims to the title <whatever>".

And it's a pretty huge warscore to give up big titles.

Unless, of course, the game is modified so I can demand they surrender X instances of the claim ("Force William to renounce his claim to Duchy of York 14 times"), in which case it would be idiotic.

My view is "fix it".

 

[Duuk]

Also, keep in mind that a normal loss gives up the actual land of a county but you still keep the claim on it. Forcing someone to surrender their claim is a BIG warscore. As in EU2 100% warscore. Total Victory.

For the War of the Roses, it would be like the Duke of York conquering all of England, smashing every vassal of Lancaster, and being able to impose his will.

Even then, I'd bet he couldn't get Lancaster to give up *all* their claims, just a few duchy claims.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Also, keep in mind that a normal loss gives up the actual land of a county but you still keep the claim on it. Forcing someone to surrender their claim is a BIG warscore. As in EU2 100% warscore. Total Victory.

For the War of the Roses, it would be like the Duke of York conquering all of England, smashing every vassal of Lancaster, and being able to impose his will.

Even then, I'd bet he couldn't get Lancaster to give up *all* their claims, just a few duchy claims.

You mean like Richard III failed to do with Henry Tudor? He had beaten everyone claimed the Kingdom and still Henry Tudor came back with an obscure claim.

 

[Duuk]

So Henry got the event "Obscure Claim Found" after he got beat?

The game already has a mechanic for that. Also, Henry probably used the last of his stored up Prestige to grab the claim *after* he got beaten once.

I didn't say you should never be able to re-claim the title. Just that you should only be allowed to have one instance *at a time*.

 

[Ernst]

You mean like Richard III failed to do with Henry Tudor? He had beaten everyone claimed the Kingdom and still Henry Tudor came back with an obscure claim.

In fact Richard III did *not* beat Henry Tudor, because he was in Wales, did he ? So Henry was able to keep his old claim.

Shall we vote ?

 

[Derek Pullem]

In fact Richard III did *not* beat Henry Tudor, because he was in Wales, did he ? So Henry was able to keep his old claim.

Shall we vote ?

Well, Owen Tudor was defeated and killed at Mortimer's Cross in 1461 so presumably he would have lost all claims to the throne due to this defeat by these rules. But his son Henry Tudor was hidden IRL in Wales and later in Brittany and retained enough of a claim to come back in 1485 and beat Richard III at Bosworth.

Now all this is OT I admit as it is technically outside the game period but I don't see why a relative shouldn't retain a claim if his father / brother is forced to give up his. Claims = conflict = more fun.

 

[Duuk]

*I SEE WHERE you're confused!*

The relatives aren't being forced to give up their claim if it exists! We have a misunderstanding.

I am Duke of Apulia with a claim to the title Duke of Campania.

When I die, my 3 kids will each get claims to both of those duchies.

If the 2nd kid dies without an heir, all his claims go back to the oldest son (Assumed to have inherited). Hence, he will have 2 claims to Duke of Campania.

If he loses a war and is forced to surrender his claim, he should be forced to give up both the claims since they both derive from the same idea.

He's not giving up the claim that the 3rd son (who is still alive) has, he's only giving up the 2 duplicate claims that he has.

In the case above from the WoR, Henry was in Wales and was not *personally* defeated, hence his claim was still valid. He never agreed for it not to be!

It's spammy as heck for your claims window to have 25 claims on 2 provinces, and it should be fixed.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Is this a function of some odd inheritance law? Why do all your sons get a claim? Surely only the oldest will????

 

[Duuk]

From what I see, pretty much everyone in the succession box gets claims when the guy dies. Works great when you're 3rd in line for your brother's duchy and his darn son inherits.

Very historically correct. Just spammy when you get 3-6 of the same claim.

 

[unmerged(11982)]

It would be nice in game terms to have this displayed as claim(number of claims) rather than list each one. Would save on the clutter.

Myros

 

[Ancient Warrior]

Okay, I see where this is annoying, but I also see the good point of claims coming from more than one source. I think the main annoyance is that it looks stupid to read "xxx has claim on county of poo, county of poo, county of poo....." How about just changing the way it's displayed. Instead of saying it over and over, if someone has more than one claim on a county or duchy just show the one icon for it with a tool tip that says "3 seperate claims" when you hover the mouse pointer over it. And in the instances where your claims are all listed and not shown by icons like in some screens then just have it read "6 claims on county of poo".

Opinions on this solution??

 

[Duuk]

But does it really matter from a game mechanic point of view? No.

A claim is a claim is a claim. And the only way to lose a claim is to be defeated badly in a war.

So why allow multiple instances of the same claim?

I think it's a bug, and no one has been able to give any game-related reasons why it shouldn't be considered one.

 

[Demetrios]

Well, Owen Tudor was defeated and killed at Mortimer's Cross in 1461 so presumably he would have lost all claims to the throne due to this defeat by these rules. But his son Henry Tudor was hidden IRL in Wales and later in Brittany and retained enough of a claim to come back in 1485 and beat Richard III at Bosworth.

Now all this is OT I admit as it is technically outside the game period but I don't see why a relative shouldn't retain a claim if his father / brother is forced to give up his. Claims = conflict = more fun.

Henry Tudor didn't get his claim from his grandfather Owen; all that handsome Welshman did was to, um, "go digging for coal" with the Queen Mum. Henry's claim derived through is mother Margaret Beaufort...