15th Scots Phase A Avre

[King Of Heroes]

Does it really have any place in phase A? having been on both the receiving and delivering end bringing it almost guarantees a victory in any region that it goes to, and its just even deadlier in narrow regions because you can't even flank it then.

And lets be honest with ourselves here, no player that didn't turn their brain off will get hit by a panzershreck in Phase A.

 

[Apolyon]

Avre has its place in Phase A with 15th Scots. Yes it deliver death easily but only at very short range and in very specific situation. Every german decks have enough assets to kill it, even from front, with or whithout Panzershreck.

 

[IS-2]

flavour

 

[roirraw]

Everything can be panicked and everything can surrender, except planes. All you have to do is figure out how to quickly close the distance before your opponent can react.

 

[King Of Heroes]

Every german decks have enough assets to kill it, even from front, with or whithout Panzershreck.

For example?

The PaK 40? doesn't penetrate reliably until at ranges where they're trading shots and won't be preventing the Avre from demolishing things out of its sight.
The Duck-3? Limited to luftlande and countered just as easily by the Phase A Fighters scots get, And the Avre can just be hidden out of sight until its gone.
The S307(f)? Same thing as the PaK 40 except you're now vulnerable to the veteran AT guns
The StuG 3F? Will have to close to 800-700 range to have a reasonable shot at penetrating but the same thing as the S307(f) applies where you can just get baited into AT guns.

Any sort of urban combat against the scots will mean you will have to get through a wall of Rifles before reaching the Avre and that very easily means getting shot and routed by the Avre instead.

Everything can be panicked and everything can surrender, except planes. All you have to do is figure out how to quickly close the distance before your opponent can react.

Of course?

 

[Hidden Gunman]

Bring on something to drop rounds on it and stun it, and go in and kill it. That's a gameplay/tactical solution.

 

[King Of Heroes]

Bring on something to drop rounds on it and stun it, and go in and kill it. That's a gameplay/tactical solution.

Can't say it works well enough from experience.

A few days ago I tried 17. SS 170mm off-map FFE and Barrage and it just shrugged them off without going over 50% panic without a leader nearby, I don't see how a 81mm mortar would work any better although the Luftlande 210mm Off-map might work somewhat.

 

[Herr_Robert]

If it's close to a road, you can stun it and try to move up with an inexpensive light vehicle to force its surrender. I don't think it's a good idea to drop off-map artillery on it unless there are other targets nearby. As the 17th SS you could for example use either a rocket plane or a Nebelwerfer to stun it and then move up with the BMW motorcycle or SPW 223. Even if you fail you have stunned it and rendered it useless for a while, and probably not lost more than $30 in the attempt.

 

[Fussel]

You can also use smoke shells to disrupt it's vision and reduce the damage it can do in A. Once you are in B you have everything you need to kill it with all divisions.

 

[Mr Hyena]

I can't really think how the 15th Scottish Infantry would really compete without it in Phase A. For some reason, they are super stingy with Vet for British stuff.

 

[King Of Heroes]

You can also use smoke shells to disrupt it's vision and reduce the damage it can do in A. Once you are in B you have everything you need to kill it with all divisions.

Smoke works I suppose but it depends on the kind of city so I don't see it being reliable specially with the way I've seen and used the Avre lately consists of using attack ground on suspected enemy buildings not exactly requiring direct line of sight as much as firing "close enough"

I also have no issues with the Avre later on, its just its sheer power in phase A urban combat feels uncounterable without a Duck.

I can't really think how the 15th Scottish Infantry would really compete without it in Phase A. For some reason, they are super stingy with Vet for British stuff.

I see the 2x Churchill V card as more than enough to keep them competitive honestly. the divisions that get the A PaK 40 can still attempt to keep that one away because of its smaller armor but at the same time the ChV can keep attacking the ground at slightly above 1200 range to panic the PaK safely.

and the Scots Rifles 2x SMGs has been working great for me lately since the Avre threat usually keeps the stuff that would keep them away hidden.

 

[IronHat]

Smoke works I suppose but it depends on the kind of city so I don't see it being reliable specially with the way I've seen and used the Avre lately consists of using attack ground on suspected enemy buildings not exactly requiring direct line of sight as much as firing "close enough"

I also have no issues with the Avre later on, its just its sheer power in phase A urban combat feels uncounterable without a Duck.


I see the 2x Churchill V card as more than enough to keep them competitive honestly. the divisions that get the A PaK 40 can still attempt to keep that one away because of its smaller armor but at the same time the ChV can keep attacking the ground at slightly above 1200 range to panic the PaK safely.

and the Scots Rifles 2x SMGs has been working great for me lately since the Avre threat usually keeps the stuff that would keep them away hidden.

I can't really think how the 15th Scottish Infantry would really compete without it in Phase A. For some reason, they are super stingy with Vet for British stuff.

the scots basically have the worst phase A arty in the game with their overpriced 2inch mortar. (3FJ being second worst due to 1000m mortar) It's why they have strong churchill support.

If you want to nerf their AVRE and howitzer churchill you need to be giving them the 3inch mortar in phase A.

 

[bkn]

Everything can be panicked and everything can surrender, except planes. All you have to do is figure out how to quickly close the distance before your opponent can react.

exactly, always think this way. try to panic and surrender units. you dont have to destroy them instantly.

but there is still one big problem with avres and churchills (in combination) in general. Sometimes you simply cant flank them or push around. On some maps its enough to park them somwhere and win the game. These support units combined with the interceptors are like i said in the balancing thread "op". The problem is in combination (support + interceptor) has no real counter, because paks are usless and tanks can be reatreat easily by this comination. The heavy Inf spam will do the rest...

 

[Hidden Gunman]

There's always been a bit too much 'dumping' of inf into urban and simply attriting things out...that doesn't work sometimes, then it's down to smoke, fire support and tactics.

 

[o0970o]

Let's see how many ways to kill this piece in phase A.
12ss : firefly
17ss : stug + pak40, ju87
21pz : 20mm train, s307, pak43
116pz: 20mm train, marder 3
3Fj: hs129, pupchen
91ld: hs129, pak40
716th: 88, pak40

So, the only problem is panzer lehr and 352th do not have a reliable way to kill it, otherwise no problem.

The way to use pak40 is simply cover it with another AT gun from the flank. Hide your pak40 in tree line, keep firing and draw it back when Avre get close to 630m if it's not killed. Then push another AT at the flank, wait until the Avre turns and re-aim, push the pak40 up again, GG.

 

[Crotou]

I am not a fan of those behemoth units in phase A. We were told phase A was about light/recon units. That's not true.

 

[LegioX]

AVRE is not hard to kill. It's range is only 600m....you want to talk about OP phase A units, lets talk about 91st 129 instant tank wipe unit.

 

[bkn]

AVRE is not hard to kill. It's range is only 600m....you want to talk about OP phase A units, lets talk about 91st 129 instant tank wipe unit.

the 129 is pretty much usless vs a good scot player... yea u can call it in and destroy 1 tank before it getrs shot down... not worth it.

forgot to say im considering 1vs1

 

[o0970o]

the 129 is pretty much usless vs a good scot player... yea u can call it in and destroy 1 tank before it getrs shot down... not worth it.

forgot to say im considering 1vs1

There is not any balance for 1v1, and it's meanless to debate about it.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

the 129 is pretty much usless vs a good scot player... yea u can call it in and destroy 1 tank before it getrs shot down... not worth it.

forgot to say im considering 1vs1

That's irrelevant to the theme of the phase system...the exceptions define the problem: AVRE, '129, Beute Firefly, etc. I'd go so far as to say that even those Cromwell CS can be 'phase dominating' when well played in phase A.