A Paradox 4X Space Game?

[Summercat]

a space game called aurora does this, but its really difficult to figure out how to play

Oh gods, Aurora! I was one of the early early testers for that game! HAH! It's based off of Starfire (the tactical/strategy boardgame).

I totally forgot about it until just now, though. It didn't make too much of a lasting impression at the time, but I guess I should look into it now.

 

[Aszhalinde]

Man, thanks for this thread. I've been craving a great 4x game for awhile and there are a lot of suggestions here I've never heard of. I got Endless Space recently, but like was already posted, I got bored after about 2 games. It was great at first, it just has 0 replayability.

Slightly off-topic, but has anybody ever heard of/played Starflight or Starflight 2? Released in 1986 I think and more a Space RPG. One of the best games series I've ever played, and there's never been anything else like it I've found.

 

[Antiscamp]

Man, thanks for this thread. I've been craving a great 4x game for awhile and there are a lot of suggestions here I've never heard of. I got Endless Space recently, but like was already posted, I got bored after about 2 games. It was great at first, it just has 0 replayability.

Slightly off-topic, but has anybody ever heard of/played Starflight or Starflight 2? Released in 1986 I think and more a Space RPG. One of the best games series I've ever played, and there's never been anything else like it I've found.

I know a guy who's making a game similar to Starflight 1 & 2. Check it out if you're interested in those classic space games. Void of Darkness has a ModDB-page and the homepage is here. The game is also inspired by Distant Worlds, so that's how I found it.

 

[unmerged(739438)]

It is interesting to read that there are two different factions: The supportor of an "ready for occupation"-universe and the supporter of an "developing earth". I personally prefer the last one especially because of the developer: Paradox has "real" szenarios in EU, V und HoI - it's kind of a brand. Therefore I would like to see the typical "historic" beginning just because of the possibility to "develop" the timeline. I think - like allready proposed - 1990 could be a great start because the factions would be simple: "NATO", "CCCP", "People's Republic of China" and "Non-Allgned-Movement". For the near future I would suggest the ("real") USA, EU, Russia and China.

For all intents and purposes, we'll boil down the initial game to a starting six factions on Earth: the United American States, the Soviet Union, Mittleeuropa, Eastasia, and Panafrica. Each faction has its own culture, different tech positions, wealth, political system (ex. UAS = Democracy, Soviet Union = Proletarian Dictatorship, Mittleeuropa = Constitutional Monarchy, Eastasia = Absolute Monarchy, etc.)

I guess we could make it more complex: Concerning to my "Federations" there could also be "companies" and "religious powers". You don't have to rely on a world goverment like in Star Trek to expand to space. There is also the possibility that strong companies will manage it: Like your beloved Weyland Yutani from Aliens. I guess it would be great if a player would have the choice to use a company or a state as source of a new galactic empire. As a company you would be able to use ressources from other federations who don't rely on protectionism and you just have to supply your worker and not a society (Poor, workless etc.). Later you can lead a government in a hidden (corruption) or open way (dictatorship). And you can do both: Create a facility on Mars, make it an independant state and stay as a company on earth.

It would be a great opportunity to give the player the power to develop the society of his fed in a certain way: In Victoria you just had the possibility to delay the transition into a democracy. A real choice would be great: Good or evil company like in Robocop which replace the state. A (grim) monarchy or military government (Dune, Starship Troopers) or democratic government. Or an religious power (Empire - Warhammer 40k).

Then, say about 200 years into the game, someone a new engine back on Earth, and the universe suddenly gets a whole lot smaller...

I just don't now what would be the most reliable technology for light speed. Maybe the "Einstein Mechanism" (=EM)) to bend the space similar to Star Trek (Or Dune?) or an Hyperspace like in StarWars/Babylon V? And should it be invented on earth or can you find the blueprints in an abandoned xenon complex on Mars?

By the way: A "developing earth" and a "ready for occupation"-universe don't have to be mutually exclusive. Like in StarTrek there could the possibility that the major factions will not contact the minor ones till they develop warp-drive. I guess the real problem is that it would be implausible when the earth - just grown up - could face the older factions. That is also the reason why I don't want to see (living) aliens in the game. They are supposed to be supreme species.

On the other site an empty galaxy without enemies isn't a real challenge. So it would be solution if the other frac's (fed's and com's) will create they own future empires similiar to the player. The possibility for one frac to gain control over the whole earth could be limited: Because of the population - scared by a possible nuclear war - you will not be able to get the earth before the majority of your population is living on other planets. So they don't care anymore^^.

edit:

Btw: Like in "Hearts Of Iron" - provinding the early 1936er and the later "Götterdämmerung"-scenario as start - paradox could offer the possibility to start in - maybe 1985 or 2050 - by scratch or in something like 2150 with an developed galaxy (except of the outer rim) ruled by human Empires, Federations, Companies etc. with the Earth as Center.

 

[Donau]

It is interesting to read that there are two different factions: The supportor of an "ready for occupation"-universe and the supporter of an "developing earth". I personally prefer the last one especially because of the developer: Paradox has "real" szenarios in EU, V und HoI - it's kind of a brand. Therefore I would like to see the typical "historic" beginning just because of the possibility to "develop" the timeline. I think - like allready proposed - 1990 could be a great start because the factions would be simple: "NATO", "CCCP", "People's Republic of China" and "Non-Allgned-Movement". For the near future I would suggest the ("real") USA, EU, Russia and China.

A third option could be for creating a handful of developer designed solar systems (like our own Sol and the home systems of alien species) and the space in between procedurally generated. Maybe even design the several closest star systems to important locations and the regions inbetween randomly generated. So when you start a game, you always will know species X star system will be so far from Sol every game but you also know that after you pass Luyten 726-8 (our seventh closest star) the contents of a star system will be random. Minor races could be seeded randomly while major races have static locations throughout the galaxy.

There are already accurately designed, public 3D star maps available, building a game world out of them is a conquerable hurdle.

 

[unmerged(739438)]

A third option could be for creating a handful of developer designed solar systems (like our own Sol and the home systems of alien species) and the space in between procedurally generated. Maybe even design the several closest star systems to important locations and the regions inbetween randomly generated. So when you start a game, you always will know species X star system will be so far from Sol every game but you also know that after you pass Luyten 726-8 (our seventh closest star) the contents of a star system will be random. Minor races could be seeded randomly while major races have static locations throughout the galaxy.

Like I mentioned: This are two different questions. First: Do we want an ready for occupation or a developing galaxy? Second: Only human factions or also other species? Because of the other species there is the problem in a developing universe that it would be hard to explain why the humans should be able to catch up with the others. Your idea with a "mixed" universe has the same problem with (developed) aliens: They humans would be underdeveloped and it would be really hard to explain how they could have a possibility to catch up. But on the other side: We don't want an easy game^^.

There are already accurately designed, public 3D star maps available, building a game world out of them is a conquerable hurdle.

3D would be realistic but I guess that it would the "map" would be managable if it is "flat". Also - if we use the whole mily way - there are more than 100 billion stars. In "HoI 3" there are 15.000 regions. If there are 5 planets/moons per star (average) the engine could calculate sth about 3.000 stars. An easy explanation for this limit could be that the other stars have no planets.

2 examples:

 

[Cybvep]

Your idea with a "mixed" universe has the same problem with (developed) aliens: They humans would be underdeveloped and it would be really hard to explain how they could have a possibility to catch up.

Why the aliens have to be vastly superior to the humans technologically-wise? Also, what stops you from adding some other disadvantages to them? They are aliens, you can use your creativity here. They can have a low population growth due to their physiology and/or social structure... or they can be in a middle of a brutal civil war... or they can be recovering form a major natural disaster... or whatever.

Also, you don't have to make things even, you know. You can make the aliens unplayable and actually OP vs humans. The humanity would be space Aztecs, while the aliens would be space conquistadors. Why not?

Oh, and if the game covers centuries (which would be ok in a space game), then catching up is not far fetched at all.

Another interesting possibility is a game WITHOUT FTL travel and without alien species. Generation ships could be used to colonise the galaxy and inter-human rivalry could spice things up. This could be fun, I think.

 

[Donau]

Why the aliens have to be vastly superior to the humans technologically-wise? Also, what stops you from adding some other disadvantages to them? They are aliens, you can use your creativity here. They can have a low population growth due to their physiology and/or social structure... or they can be in a middle of a brutal civil war... or they can be recovering form a major natural disaster... or whatever.

Also, you don't have to make things even, you know. You can make the aliens unplayable and actually OP vs humans. The humanity would be space Aztecs, while the aliens would be space conquistadors. Why not?

Oh, and if the game covers centuries (which would be ok in a space game), then catching up is not far fetched at all.

Another interesting possibility is a game WITHOUT FTL travel and without alien species. Generation ships could be used to colonise the galaxy and inter-human rivalry could spice things up. This could be fun, I think.

Humanity may be undeveloped vs some aliens but not all, if a game played out over centuries as Cybvep says, then it could contain already spacefaring species as well as species that had not yet emerged into their space faring age. What happens when you encounter a race that is still in its industrial age? That sort of stuff would make for exciting gameplay in my opinion.

Humans could also steal, extort, and assimilate to catch up...

 

[Variton]

Why the aliens have to be vastly superior to the humans technologically-wise?

Just plain probabilities. If humanity (the only real life example of intelligent life we have to rely on) reached stars would we cease to improve technology? When stars have billions years difference in age, the probabilities of encountering species of same tech level is quite non-existing. How would the aztecs have fared against an armored division? And thats only some 1000 years difference.

Also, what stops you from adding some other disadvantages to them? They are aliens, you can use your creativity here. They can have a low population growth due to their physiology and/or social structure... or they can be in a middle of a brutal civil war... or they can be recovering form a major natural disaster... or whatever.

That would make a hard game to make? The civs would all play differently. And also there would most likely be the same sense of unrealism; things have been balanced in different ways just to make it even between the races.

Also, you don't have to make things even, you know. You can make the aliens unplayable and actually OP vs humans. The humanity would be space Aztecs, while the aliens would be space conquistadors. Why not? Oh, and if the game covers centuries (which would be ok in a space game), then catching up is not far fetched at all.

But is it material for a strategy game? A game of the underdog just waiting for time (and some espionage etc) to balance the odds.

Space 4x genre is stuffed with alien races fighting it out. IMO there could be room for a more realistic approach of human factions with alien LIFE as a immersion and minor gameplay (biotech, trade goods) factor.

 

[superskierpat]

I would prefer ck style mechanics but IN SPACE. Something like Foundation would be nice, all humans, but plenty of different cultures.

Or start the game on this date and make you control a company within a mix of political and commercial factions. You would control the ceo of your company and you could play on different levels (all international). The goal would be to keep your company in the run and adapt to the changing environment. The end date would be like 10000 years after. The term of company could change, becoming a kingdom, a colony or something else.

 

[TheAtreides84]

I rather dislike the common space 4x games as they feel like "all species are the same with a few bonuses". kinda like star trek universe.

absolutely true. I would very much like a game with 3 species at most, but really different. Or a game with only human cultures, like in the aftermath of the fall of a asimovian galactic empire.

 

[FOARP]

absolutely true. I would very much like a game with 3 species at most, but really different. Or a game with only human cultures, like in the aftermath of the fall of a asimovian galactic empire.

I'm cool with a universe in which only the human race is playable, but where aliens are either the horrific Sci-Fi equivalent of a Mongol invasion or are mysterious and unfathomable beings who drop in occasionally to weird the players out.

Imagine: you go through a couple of hundred years of slow colonisation and infra-species warfare during which the 'others' occasionally drop in to trade and give you spooky messages of impending doom and warnings not to develop certain technologies less you draw attention from 'them', which you proceed to ignore (because basically the game motivates you or an AI player to develop that technology) and then an alien invasion fleet bent on doing horrible things to the human race comes out of nowhere and starts kicking your arse five ways from Sunday with super-advanced weaponary. Wouldn't it be epic?

There needn't be a choice between and already-populated universe and developing an unpopulated one - clearly, if the scenario is one of e.g., recovering from the aftermath of a collapsed gallactic empire, spaces between groupings can be left unpopulated, as well as an unconquered galactic fringe.

The great thing about a Sci-Fi space-based scenario is that it leaves the game developers free to implement plot twists to keep the game interesting. So you've managed to reunify the Galactic Empire? Fine - here's a random planet the colonisation of which will cause homicidal shape-shifting Xenomorphs to spread out across the galaxy. Beaten that? Here's a rebellion that's tired of your imperial rule and has set up a string of bases in the outer rim and which you're going to have to stamp out. Beaten them? OK - here's a single star-devouring super monster that's going to take your entire fleet to defeat. Finally beat that? Well here's Satan himself coming out of a sub-space portal. And so on.

The above idea would also have some other, very obvious benefits under Paradox's basic business model. For historical games the DLCs that can be created will always be limited by what actually happened - attempts to go a-historical risk the kind of ridiculous backlash seen with Sunset Invasions. For a Sci-Fi scenario, though, DLCs can steadily add new races, technologies, star-systems, large-scale challenges etc. in an open-ended fashion, without the developers having to resort to Horse Armour-style 'Klingon Faces', 'Martian Music' DLCs.

 

[unmerged(739438)]

Why the aliens have to be vastly superior to the humans technologically-wise? Also, what stops you from adding some other disadvantages to them? They are aliens, you can use your creativity here. They can have a low population growth due to their physiology and/or social structure... or they can be in a middle of a brutal civil war... or they can be recovering form a major natural disaster... or whatever.

I would assume that it is not very likely that two species would develop simultaneously. Because it woldn't be enternaining to deal with aliens who are still monads I would chose the option that they are superior.

Also, you don't have to make things even, you know. You can make the aliens unplayable and actually OP vs humans. The humanity would be space Aztecs, while the aliens would be space conquistadors. Why not?

You have a point. But the humans have to develop first to bacame "aztecs": One planet against an Empire can't deal with losses. Maybe it would be possible to avoid/deny contact: Spott and destroy approching space probes of aliens in a silent way. Jamm and detroy scouts. "Cloak" the planet etc.

Oh, and if the game covers centuries (which would be ok in a space game), then catching up is not far fetched at all.

Granted.

Another interesting possibility is a game WITHOUT FTL travel and without alien species. Generation ships could be used to colonise the galaxy and inter-human rivalry could spice things up. This could be fun, I think.

They could be a first step even with FTL. Before its developed or discovered - maybe by a generation ship.

Humans could also steal, extort, and assimilate to catch up...

Great idea - if there is an all knowing supreme species which could erase mankind easily you dare to annoy them by tring to steal technology. Ok, it could work but I wouldn't recommend it^^.

By the way: There could also be species without a homeworld. For example nomads like in "Independance Day". They have a small number so that the atzec thing could work.

I would very much like a game with 3 species at most, but really different. Or a game with only human cultures, like in the aftermath of the fall of a asimovian galactic empire.

What I don't like is the idea to connect a certain culture with (stereotypical) attributes. For example that like in "Rise of Nations" the German have a strong industry, Japan has honour etc. I would like if there is the same basic set for all (human) factions. Die difference should caused by the different political system/the influence of the population. In "Victoria 2" there was imho no way to determine changes: You just had the possibility to delay pluralism. I would suggest to add "media control" to the game. In a democracry the player could chose to "give" the population the need for steadiness provided by the government or the desire for freedom. Because of this influence you can affect the distribution of the votes and get an other ruling party. And if you get a communist party there will be no more elections.

 

[towerbooks3192]

I really loved Pdox games and the details that they include in their game but I am not sure how they are in non-historical games. As of the moment Distant Worlds is the most complicated one I am aware of compared to the usual gal civ and sword of the stars. Its one of my dreams to see Paradox enter this theatre of war and produce something as detailed as Victoria or hearts of iron 3 space game.

 

[Raph]

I would prefer ck style mechanics but IN SPACE. Something like Foundation would be nice, all humans, but plenty of different cultures.

Sounds a lot like the Dune universe to me as well. Wonder if that license is possible to get? The first Dune book at least has a lot of CK in it: vendettas, plots, espionage, marital politics, lieges and vassals, levies and mercenaries.

 

[KingPedro]

A Paradox GS space game with the tech and military system of HoI3 and the economy and pop system of vicky2. My bank account, take it.

 

[Orko80]

I dream for quite some time now about a game where you colonize the solarsystem/univers. And that not from a united earth. But several nation's/civ's that now spread into space.

Also with not claiming whole planets but 'provinces' on the planet's/moon's.
I always found it weird that a whole planet couldn't be colonized by several civilisations in any 4x game.

Well if it was a whole galaxy univers deal it would get to complex too fast but if we stick to the solar system it would be fesable.


And with savegame conversters we could play our viking kingdom up to dominate our Solar system

 

[FOARP]

I dream for quite some time now about a game where you colonize the solarsystem/univers. And that not from a united earth. But several nation's/civ's that now spread into space.

Also with not claiming whole planets but 'provinces' on the planet's/moon's.
I always found it weird that a whole planet couldn't be colonized by several civilisations in any 4x game.

Well if it was a whole galaxy univers deal it would get to complex too fast but if we stick to the solar system it would be fesable.


And with savegame conversters we could play our viking kingdom up to dominate our Solar system

Hmmm . . . a two-level map (e.g., space and planetary surface) does have some good points, but in a real-time game there's always the problem of having things happening in one map whilst you're looking at the other. Notifications can only do so much.

 

[Cybvep]

I would assume that it is not very likely that two species would develop simultaneously. Because it woldn't be enternaining to deal with aliens who are still monads I would chose the option that they are superior.

Sure, but they can be somewhat superior, vastly superior or they can be almost godlike. The last option would be pointless from a gameplay perspective, because the humanity would stand no chance. Other options can be considered.

You have a point. But the humans have to develop first to bacame "aztecs": One planet against an Empire can't deal with losses. Maybe it would be possible to avoid/deny contact: Spott and destroy approching space probes of aliens in a silent way. Jamm and detroy scouts. "Cloak" the planet etc.

Maybe. We are talking about mind-boggling distances here, so logistical problems could be severe even for more advanced aliens. Without extremely fast FTL drives or devices like mass relays from Mass Effect, power projection would be limited. I'm sure that sending probes wouldn't be a big problem, but big fleets would be a challenge. This would give poor humans a chance, because the humanity would have much greater force concentration. Of course, I assume that the humanity would have military ships or other weapon platforms that would be able to do some damage. If the aliens appear tomorrow, we are f*cked, but then, we won't be colonising the galaxy tomorrow, either, so this s-f game needs to take place in the future in order to be believable.

They could be a first step even with FTL. Before its developed or discovered - maybe by a generation ship.

Yes, but this creates a multitude of balance problems. Pre-FTL age gameplay would be completely different from FTL age gameplay.

 

[unmerged(739438)]

Also with not claiming whole planets but 'provinces' on the planet's/moon's.
I always found it weird that a whole planet couldn't be colonized by several civilisations in any 4x game.

Inside the solar system it would be a good idea: If you start with different factions on our planet the earth will be the first planet where you are not alone. Also the Moon or Mars could be colonized simultaneously by USA, EU etc. You could also claim that basically all humans are the same faction but honestly: If you want the possibility to force a unification I guess you really need an planet-map. But general I guess it would be pointless because the "war" should be decided by the battle in space. And the faction with air superiority can start an orbital bombardement. On the other side: If there are planetary batteries the invader could try to avoid losses of spaceships and land on the other side of the planet to approch the batteries on ground.
And how you want to display a planet map: In HoI is alwys the problem, that you cant cross north or south pole. I would suggest a "real" globe which you can rotate.

Yes, but this creates a multitude of balance problems. Pre-FTL age gameplay would be completely different from FTL age gameplay.

I don't think that this is a huge problem. At the beginning you should be busy colonizing the solar system. And to the next stars (alpha centaury 4 light years) can be colonized by subsace/impulse egnines. With fusion reactors and an ion-engine spaceships can make it. 1 lightyear = 40.000.000.000.000 km. Lightspeed is 1.080.000.000 km/h. 8.544,6. With 1/10 lightspeed you will make it in 40 years. Some scientists think that you can travel with 4/10 lightspeed so 10 Years would be possible. That is not much more as you need to get an army without fuel and supplies trough russia^^. So you don't even need generationships for close stars like Alpha Centauri, Sirius, etc.