A View On EUIV Technology

[mudcrabmerchant]

I just want tech to be freed from the wealth/province size average. V2 and CKII's tech systems both represented historical processes much better.

I think CKII's, at least in principle, is the best we've had so far, though. You should be able to emphasize development in certain areas, (slider positions and the new ruler system add interesting ways to do this), but V2 and EU3 both seemed to model systems where all technological advancement was done by centralized government think tanks.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

Well, European nations were also smaller, more menagable, and more eager to get an edge.

It's about finding a middle ground. If every European nation was reduced to dozens of OPM's only concerned with conquering their neighbor over the hill and expanding their territory, technology would have stagnated. Likewise, it would have stagnated if Rome or Charlemagne or whoever formed a lasting, monolithic, pan-European superstate akin to China.

Speaking of China, I really hope the tech rates of Asia (including India) aren't as abysmal as before. In EU3, turning their speeds up to 70-80% that of Western Europe modeled history quite well, with the Asians not falling seriously behind the Europeans until the 18th century.

 

[lazysunside]

In your Q&A part, you imply that conflict and war prevented or slowed down technological progress... while quite the opposite is true. Competition drove technology forward, and is probably one of the reason why Europe surged ahead, as there were many competing nations.

It slowed down the over all technological progress for countries that relies on trade and other ways instead of spending money and resources into making it themselves. With war raging around the borders, only the big, strong countries will have the power to make new killing machines. The smaller countries will have to fend for themselves as they are already poor and out sourced.

 

[Spurius]

This is a really interesting idea.

EU: Rome had both technology levels and inventions, which might work well for EU4.

The inventions would reflect major developments during the time period, for example a national bank, the flintlock musket or the two decker ship of the line. Most countries would have some inventions at the beginning of the game and there would be a small chance of discovery once the appropriate technology level was reached, but the most common way to acquire an invention would be through trade links or in the case of military inventions from fighting a war against somebody with the invention. Gaining an invention by trade obviously requires active trade links with a country that has the invention in question. The chance should be significantly affected by the % of national wealth coming from trade.

The technology level would have comparatively small but cumulative benefits, but would affect the chance (if any) of developing or acquiring an invention.

So how would this system help deal with some of the issues?

Trade becomes the main method by which the major advances spread. I am thinking of things like Japan fielding musket-armed troops that were as advanced as any in the world within a few years of first seeing muskets brought by Portuguese traders. It also means that countries like China who earn a very low % of their wealth from trade have a low chance of acquiring discoveries that way.

Native countries in areas like South America and Sub-Saharan Africa could need to acquire "gateway" inventions before they could discover any other in a particular category through sustained contact with countries that had made these discoveries, for example needing large shipbuilding before any other naval inventions can be discovered. Most European and Asian countries would start with these inventions already. This means that the Incas can become a modern nation, but only if they can trade for a sustained period of time with cultures that have the relevant knowledge (whilst avoiding being conquered by one of them).

China can be given inventions such as professional bureaucracy and public examinations from the beginning of the game to reflect that country's unique institutions. Other countries would either have to have sustained trade links and good relations with China to acquire the invention from them or could potentially invent them towards the end of the game with a high government technology level. The latter could be a national idea or institution that has to be developed over time and in the face of opposition.

 

[George LeS]

I'll just throw this out. Remember that what I say assumes a basis of the existing tech investment system.

I'd change one feature of the way it works, in that I'd link the 1st 5 sliders, independent of the last 2. That is, the 5 tech sliders would represent the relative emphasis on each tech, rather than being (directly) the $ invested. For a given level of tech investment, how much is going to Government, how much to Trade, etc. They wouldn't move just because the AMOUNT invested changes because of Stab or minting. Rather, moving them would mean only that you are taking a share from Production and moving to Naval, to catch up with a rival.

Stab would function as is. That means that the treasury slider would, in itself, determine how much you are investing, overall.

Of course, there would be a few other things to consider. The Monarch's ADM and MIL values' contribution would then be split as described above. Only the neighbor bonus, and advisors', would remain linked to a certain tech.

IMO, it'd be simpler.

I also think it shouldn't be the case that tech speed differences have to scale, from tech group to tech group, evenly across all techs. Is this valid? My own reading (far from expert) is that the Land tech should be far more even than Naval. Frankly, at sea, every non-European nation lagged behind Europe until the Japanese in Victorian times. (Counting the American countries as European, of course). Yes, the Western Moslem countries started even or a bit ahead, but it was a waning tide, and it waned faster at sea than on land, for many reasons.

I'd be inclined to say the Gov and Nav were the big Euro edges, the others rather smaller. But the main point is, why should they be all set at the same level? (Granted, triggered modifiers can change this.)

 

[lazysunside]

Quotes from Spurius

"The inventions would reflect major developments during the time period, for example a national bank, the flintlock musket or the two decker ship of the line. Most countries would have some inventions at the beginning of the game and there would be a small chance of discovery once the appropriate technology level was reached, but the most common way to acquire an invention would be through trade links or in the case of military inventions from fighting a war against somebody with the invention. Gaining an invention by trade obviously requires active trade links with a country that has the invention in question. The chance should be significantly affected by the % of national wealth coming from trade."

Comment: Correct, but instead of having a trade link for each countries, I would like to do it in the trade center. This because to all the warlords in Asia, if they dont trade much, they'll be the one behind the tech tree.


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"The technology level would have comparatively small but cumulative benefits, but would affect the chance (if any) of developing or acquiring an invention."

Comment: This is also a nice feature. Even though I would like to make it like Vicky 2, each time you gain a new tech, there are possible tech you can gain per month.Each time you gain a new tech level, the undiscovered tech increases their percentage of being found. This will surely eliminate the unlucky countries that do poorly with tech discovering.

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"Trade becomes the main method by which the major advances spread. I am thinking of things like Japan fielding musket-armed troops that were as advanced as any in the world within a few years of first seeing muskets brought by Portuguese traders. It also means that countries like China who earn a very low % of their wealth from trade have a low chance of acquiring discoveries that way."


Comment: Exactly, you understood the system now. This also clarify us about Ming's wish for trade by making giant Treasure Ships and sailed around Asia. Someone in China wanted to break the Middle Kingdom stand. But Ming emperor later on display great disinterest in the trades and aborted the mission. China continued to be a backward country until...Pu Yi, 1910.


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"Native countries in areas like South America and Sub-Saharan Africa could need to acquire "gateway" inventions before they could discover any other in a particular category through sustained contact with countries that had made these discoveries, for example needing large shipbuilding before any other naval inventions can be discovered. Most European and Asian countries would start with these inventions already. This means that the Incas can become a modern nation, but only if they can trade for a sustained period of time with cultures that have the relevant knowledge (whilst avoiding being conquered by one of them)."


Comment: I also think this is a good idea. Someone in the reply section also said something about trading with Asia. Natives can have ships and may establish trade links with Asia. It just impossible since they have to cross the Pacific. But hey, some disputed history states that Ming's treasure ships did find America before Columbus. So there might be hope.


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"China can be given inventions such as professional bureaucracy and public examinations from the beginning of the game to reflect that country's unique institutions. Other countries would either have to have sustained trade links and good relations with China to acquire the invention from them or could potentially invent them towards the end of the game with a high government technology level. The latter could be a national idea or institution that has to be developed over time and in the face of opposition."


Comment: In my opinion, China does not need any unique government or system of factions at all. And yes, I agreed on giving them boost on Government and Land tech early on as they are very good at those things. What China need to go well with their history is the "Middle Kingdom" and "Chinese's over extension" modifier.

The Middle kingdom policy reduce trade abilities as China thought they are the best of the best, they have no need to do major trade with barbarians. This can be remove by having higher Free Trade and Innovation Sliders.

The Chinese's over extension is a unique modifier that will give 1 percent rebellion in China each month. Each time a big rebellion appeared and squashed, the percentage will reset at 0% This will surely give China something to care about as in real life, their country are already a melting pot for hundred of years. Every 100-300 years, China change their dynasty with a big revolution. Every years, famine, rebels, etc revolt against the Chinese government. Thus this modifier is a need.

 

[AlHasanAlbaghdadi]

In general I really like the idea that tech should be linked to trade. Also it would really be nice if they did like you say and make it so that different countries require different approaches to tech advancement.

However I hate the idea that the state should have a "research budget". It's such a terrible meme, something they invented for the Civ games and that stuck ever since. A simulationist game like EU should not have this.

I mean, what is this supposed to represent? Kings and princes did not finance research academies in any of those times. They financed all kinds of stuff - administration, clerics, the military, some welfare, occasionally also business ventures proposed by private individuals - but not research academies. Research happened "on the side", it was something to which people devoted their time when there was a need for it and when circumstances were right.

I don't like the idea that there should be a "research slider" which you push as far to the right as possible, to reach an arbitrary threshold of arbitrarily defined research points. I much prefer the CK2 system where advanced still happen in small steps, but based on random chances, not on sliders and research point counts. You still have a sort of idea how far you are from a breakthrough, but you cannot really time it. You can tell if you are stagnating, you can tell if you are in the lead, but you can't say "this is my current rate of progress, and we will discover this tech seven years, five months and ten days from now, at half past six in the morning". I always hated this about EU3, it's a fun game in many ways, but in so many other ways it degenerates into bean counting.

Playing a game like EU is, to me, about putting you into the position of a statesman - about immersion. If you play the Incas and you want gunpowder, well, think for a second about how the Inca High King would go about this, and then do that! Tell the scribes and priests to go out of their way to record everything there is to know about the foreigners and their way of doing things. Think about how you can get a closer view at their stuff. Without letting them know how backwards and weak you really are. Make a choice about whether it's better to pull their traders into your country, and try to learn from them, or to close yourself off, keep the Spanish out and try to find out about their stuff in other ways (Equip expeditions to find their settlements, and those of other Europeans before they find yours... raid them... or turn your realm into a hermit kingdom, and limit their trade to specific places, like Deshima...) And then hope that this brings you success, as soon as possible. It should not be about shoving some sliders to the right, and then twiddling your thumbs while you watch the progress bar creep up slowly.

I mean, COME ON! In Eu3 tech research is less interesting and less immersive than watching your computer burn a DVD. Do something about it, Paradox!

Me like

 

[1alexey]

It's about finding a middle ground. If every European nation was reduced to dozens of OPM's only concerned with conquering their neighbor over the hill and expanding their territory, technology would have stagnated. Likewise, it would have stagnated if Rome or Charlemagne or whoever formed a lasting, monolithic, pan-European superstate akin to China.

Exept, Europe was in fact a bunch of warmongers, that could not live without a huge war for a few decades, pretty much the entire time period of EU.

Not to mention, the crusade era, when Europe made a huge jump in development, it was largely still a bunch of warring kingdoms, and that didn`t quite hold it back.

The European states, were smaller than China, and more managable, that doesn`t mean they were OMPs, or that the country needs to be OPM to be menagable.

 

[lazysunside]

Exept, Europe was in fact a bunch of warmongers, that could not live without a huge war for a few decades, pretty much the entire time period of EU.

Not to mention, the crusade era, when Europe made a huge jump in development, it was largely still a bunch of warring kingdoms, and that didn`t quite hold it back.

The European states, were smaller than China, and more managable, that doesn`t mean they were OMPs, or that the country needs to be OPM to be menagable.

The thing is Europe have a place for innovation. And because they are smaller countries, If one country went stupid, others can go smart. Other places are dominant by one major power and every countries around it have to follow its custom and paid tribute. So if that big country went stupid, the rest of land went stupid as well.

And when the Crusade era happened, the reason Europe made a huge jump is that they stole the technologies back from the Middle eastern kingdoms. They stole knowledge of medicine, architectures, books, philosophies from greeks, spices, etc. The crusade also bought an important foot hold in the control of the silk road to Europe.

In 1453, when the Ottoman Empire became a dominant power that control the silk road, European monarch wanted to find a new way to India. They wanted to trade, they wanted those rare resources and knowledge of the east thus they sailed west to find India. They found something though that will help them so much more.

 

[Sir Tornado]

I never really understood the "bigger the country, bigger the research" logic. It makes sense on gameplay level as bigger countries invariably have bigger incomes, but it doesn't make much sense logically. Instead, what I would like to see is as follows:

Different technology levels for different provinces (like CKII). This technology level would depend on several factors, some of them at provincial level, some of them at national level. For example:

Provincial level:
- Trade routes passing through the province
- Prosperity of the province and the population levels
- Technology of neighbouring province. I think the effect due to neighbouring owned provinces, neighbouring friendly provinces and neighbouring hostice provinces should be different
- Infrastructure in that province
- War or Peace. Civil technologies should suffer during war but, military technology should receive some boost as long as the province is not completely devastated
- Trade goods. For example, a country producing naval supplies, that province should get a boost on naval tech tree... this is can be a good way to give a boost to Europe.
- Capital/National Focus/Border province status. For example, Capital province has increased diplomatic and administration activity leading to greater focus on Government tech tree. National Focus has increased focus on economy leading to greater progress on Trade tech tree. Border provinces have an increased military focus, etc...
- Technological progress in rest of the nation: If you have a backward province in your nation, then that province should not instantaneously come to your technology level, but there should be a steady bonus on that province to bring it to the level of other provinces (based on population/wealth). The bonus would increased based on how many provinces have a better technology... for example, if you have 40 provinces and 1 of them has higher tech than 39 of them, then the bonus would not be so big, but if 39 out of 40 provinces have better technology then the one lagging behind should get a bigger bonus. I think distance needs to matter here too. A remote Siberian province is not likely to get benefits from technological advances in St. Petersburg, but Moscow certainly would.

National modifiers:
- Leaders and Advisors
- Certain buildings.
- Competition. If your neighbouring country has x military tech or y trade tech and is a threatening you/driving your merchents out of trade, then your nation would try to out do them in technology to regain competitiveness (at some cost to treasury). This furthers the lead of Europe due to the increased competition and superior wealth compared to rest of the world and automatically handicaps China (no competition).

Province based technology makes sense. If England has captured a province in India, it doesn't make sense for the Indian province to enjoy the benefits of the current technological levels in Europe.

 

[lazysunside]

I never really understood the "bigger the country, bigger the research" logic. It makes sense on gameplay level as bigger countries invariably have bigger incomes, but it doesn't make much sense logically. Instead, what I would like to see is as follows:

Different technology levels for different provinces (like CKII). This technology level would depend on several factors, some of them at provincial level, some of them at national level.

National modifiers:
- Leaders and Advisors
- Certain buildings.
- Competition. If your neighbouring country has x military tech or y trade tech and is a threatening you/driving your merchents out of trade, then your nation would try to out do them in technology to regain competitiveness (at some cost to treasury). This furthers the lead of Europe due to the increased competition and superior wealth compared to rest of the world and automatically handicaps China (no competition).

Province based technology makes sense. If England has captured a province in India, it doesn't make sense for the Indian province to enjoy the benefits of the current technological levels in Europe.

You're beginning to understanding the system.

The bigger country bigger the research logic applies to those provinces that have hard time accepting the new technologies. Bigger Empire means bigger to rules. It cost a lot more to apply the technology to the entire region and it is not as simple as ordering them to go so. There will be opposition sides. Thus the bigger the country bigger the research applies.

As for providence based technology, the core is there for a reason.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

I'd say certain technologies should be local, and some national. Most military technologies should be national, most economic technologies should be local. For instance, if one port could build Caravels, it was quite simple for that knowledge to be transferred. Better milling processes were a bit harder to transfer, as it was not of immediate interest to monarchs the way caravels were.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

I'd say certain technologies should be local, and some national. Most military technologies should be national, most economic technologies should be local. For instance, if one port could build Caravels, it was quite simple for that knowledge to be transferred. Better milling processes were a bit harder to transfer, as it was not of immediate interest to monarchs the way caravels were.

I would go one step further and say that caravel building should also be a local tech. If you as a ruler were interested in having caravels available in specific ports, before the tech spreads there on its own (f.ex. you're Russia, your Baltic coast can build caravels, but your newly won Black Sea Coast can't) you should invite / forcibly move some craftsmen there.

This would give you a bit to do and make the game be more about the important questions of a ruler. Attracting capable craftsmen was very much a ruler's job back in those days. It would also demand that you have a bit of money on the side and whatever else they want to use as a "limited resource" (magistrates?).

Inviting craftsmen / traders from abroad should generally be something you ought to WANT to do. If tech progress is largely a local thing, then (as a player on the relative fringe of Europe or the world) you would have a strong incentive to check, where are the places where this or that tech is already reached, and you'd try to bring those guys over to your country for some time so you can reap their benefits.

As an Ottoman Sultan you would go and invite Jews from all over the world into your cities, because you want those juicy trade and production benefits to your cities. You would also invite / resettle Turkish warriors into your European provinces, to be able to recruit better troops there.

As a Spanish king you would have your reasons to evict the Jews (you might want Spain to be all-Christian for better stability and prestige), even if it costs you tech and production abilities. Rather than being after Jewish traders, you'd be after Genoese traders, Venetian shipwrights, Dutch craftsmen, and German musket makers.

If you didn't do your best to attract those guys, you would basically only be able to use the "local" tech in all places, which might or might not be good for you. As a Spaniard, you'd be a laggard unless you manage to transform your country into a place where innovation is encouraged and actually happens.

You can play CK2 without ever paying attention to the tech system. It would be kind of nice if EU4 also let you do that, if you decide you want to focus your energies on other things, even if it means you won't ever be ahead of your neighbours in anything. (EU3 did, in a way... if you never moved a slider... but there "minting" was so connected to the tech system that you invariably would tinker with it.)

 

[ANO1453]

I'll just throw this out. Remember that what I say assumes a basis of the existing tech investment system.

I'd change one feature of the way it works, in that I'd link the 1st 5 sliders, independent of the last 2. That is, the 5 tech sliders would represent the relative emphasis on each tech, rather than being (directly) the $ invested. For a given level of tech investment, how much is going to Government, how much to Trade, etc. They wouldn't move just because the AMOUNT invested changes because of Stab or minting. Rather, moving them would mean only that you are taking a share from Production and moving to Naval, to catch up with a rival.

That is how I always imagined the sliders. Not about actual money invested, but about focus.

 

[lazysunside]

I'd say certain technologies should be local, and some national. Most military technologies should be national, most economic technologies should be local. For instance, if one port could build Caravels, it was quite simple for that knowledge to be transferred. Better milling processes were a bit harder to transfer, as it was not of immediate interest to monarchs the way caravels were.

Image if 2000-3000 provinces running on local technology at once, while the country has its own set of technology. Two different kind of tech will be developed by chance every month, not only to mention EUIV technology span for a long time. This means there will be hundred of undiscovered tech.

It's heavy, it's large, it's a coder's hell. As I stated before, I wanted to make the system easy to achieve. If we all wanted to make it ultra realistic then best if go play a stimulation or mod the game to a higher level. Don't force the producer to create a game that require much more micromanagement than EUIII.

Unless you want EUIV to be release in 2014-2015 as writing code, create diversity for every single provinces and for making a whole new system of locally technology takes a long time.

For me, I would certainly wanted an EUIV that releases early, that easy to learn and play and user friendly. Not dwelling too much into real life. Everyone know real life is hard. Let's not make the game hard. :3

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Image if 2000-3000 provinces running on local technology at once, while the country has its own set of technology. Two different kind of tech will be developed by chance every month, not only to mention EUIV technology span for a long time. This means there will be hundred of undiscovered tech.

It's heavy, it's large, it's a coder's hell. As I stated before, I wanted to make the system easy to achieve. If we all wanted to make it ultra realistic then best if go play a stimulation or mod the game to a higher level. Don't force the producer to create a game that require much more micromanagement than EUIII.

Unless you want EUIV to be release in 2014-2015 as writing code, create diversity for every single provinces and for making a whole new system of locally technology takes a long time.

For me, I would certainly wanted an EUIV that releases early, that easy to learn and play and user friendly. Not dwelling too much into real life. Everyone know real life is hard. Let's not make the game hard. :3

You are exaggerating. :glare: CK2 has hundreds of provinces, each with its own tech levels in ~40 different techs, but no one ever called that system complex. It's very easy and simple to understand, because you never actually care about the tech levels of more than your own 3-5 provinces. You can look at the tech map and see at a glance where all of Europe is, in any particular field of technology, if you care about that. Most of the time you don't. The same would go in EU3.

 

[hhyy_best]

Quotes from Spurius

The Chinese's over extension is a unique modifier that will give 1 percent rebellion in China each month. Each time a big rebellion appeared and squashed, the percentage will reset at 0% This will surely give China something to care about as in real life, their country are already a melting pot for hundred of years. Every 100-300 years, China change their dynasty with a big revolution. Every years, famine, rebels, etc revolt against the Chinese government. Thus this modifier is a need.[/COLOR]

It's not good to give permanent special penalties to any country. The unstable situation should be reflect using other game mechanisms. Chinese people is not rebeling just because being Chinese, it's because some real reasons: e.g. the government efficiency during that time is not enough to manage such a large nation, production rate is barely enough so famine from time to time. Or simply, look, a comet -1 stable.

 

[1alexey]

The thing is Europe have a place for innovation. And because they are smaller countries, If one country went stupid, others can go smart. Other places are dominant by one major power and every countries around it have to follow its custom and paid tribute. So if that big country went stupid, the rest of land went stupid as well.

And when the Crusade era happened, the reason Europe made a huge jump is that they stole the technologies back from the Middle eastern kingdoms. They stole knowledge of medicine, architectures, books, philosophies from greeks, spices, etc. The crusade also bought an important foot hold in the control of the silk road to Europe.

In 1453, when the Ottoman Empire became a dominant power that control the silk road, European monarch wanted to find a new way to India. They wanted to trade, they wanted those rare resources and knowledge of the east thus they sailed west to find India. They found something though that will help them so much more.

As i said, the facts that Europans were a bunch of warmongers didn`t quite prevent them from stealing, reserching, and in other ways aquiring and implementing the things they got on their hands.

My point was, that wars do not cripple technology, anyhow. If anything, they greatly help it develop.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

Exept, Europe was in fact a bunch of warmongers, that could not live without a huge war for a few decades, pretty much the entire time period of EU.

Not to mention, the crusade era, when Europe made a huge jump in development, it was largely still a bunch of warring kingdoms, and that didn`t quite hold it back.

The European states, were smaller than China, and more managable, that doesn`t mean they were OMPs, or that the country needs to be OPM to be menagable.

I guess I wasn't clear. I agree with you wholeheartedly. My point was that a bunch of OPM's always at each other's throats would lead to too much instability, at a much more fundamental level than "regional powers kill a couple of tens of thousands of peasants every few years".

 

[AlphaNarwhal]

I don't think this is a perfect tech system, but definitely many steps forward from EU3, and all other Paradox games. I like how trade is involved, and how much more real this system is.