A View On EUIV Technology

[lazysunside]

It's not good to give permanent special penalties to any country. The unstable situation should be reflect using other game mechanisms. Chinese people is not rebeling just because being Chinese, it's because some real reasons: e.g. the government efficiency during that time is not enough to manage such a large nation, production rate is barely enough so famine from time to time. Or simply, look, a comet -1 stable.

Lol they are rebelling not because they are being 'Chinese' (Im not racist toward Chinese) But because they are a country formed by many dominant groups of people and hundred more minorities.

Ming back then had like 4 dominant groups. Manchurian came and formed Qing thus became China today, 5 dominant group of people. The Han people (Chinese Ming) really hated the Manchurian (Mongolian Manchurian Qing) and both group often revolted against each other many times. They had spies, rebel official in the court, pretenders, etc and often trade sword at each other every time they find a chance. The Southern really hated the Northern. The South Western doesn't really care. The North West revolted to the point of uncontrollable (They are mostly nomadic Mongolians back from the 11th century)

Majorities of the revolts happens every years due to famine, corruption like you said around the country. But the hottest rebels war would be between North vs South, North vs West.

Later in Qing, North vs South and North East vs South East. The rebellions continued all the way until Communist China took over the entire country. The last well known rebellion was Tienanmen Square and Tibet.

China was full of social strife due to their size, their different cultures, their policies, internal strife, natural disasters etc. Because the court had to deal with these things for such a long time each dynasty can't last long against the growing rebellions. Which is why you see China's dynasties changed every 100-300 years.

While in Europe, you only have French vs English vs German, Poland vs Sweden vs Russia vs Ottoman, Italian states choked each other with pasta, etc Dynasties are pretty much marry to each others, each time a dynasty changes, it's either through marriages or a small scheme, and a little civil war. The only earliest major and shocking rebellion Europe had was the French republic and it already terrified them.

Beside, I only wanted to weaken China because they are historically like that. If not, you would see Chinese invade Poland as early as the 1500s And this time, they have superior technology as well in manpower.

 

[ANO1453]

I don't know how some of you relate China with bad administration or low production efficiency... Chinese bureaucracy would blush European chancelleries, even up to later dates (although in later times we see the Eunuchs gaining the upper hand over Bureaucrats, and those disputes really mess with the country).

 

[lazysunside]

I don't know how some of you relate China with bad administration or low production efficiency... Chinese bureaucracy would blush European chancelleries, even up to later dates (although in later times we see the Eunuchs gaining the upper hand over Bureaucrats, and those disputes really mess with the country).

Chinese administration blushed the European. But there simply too much work to do with a too centralised state. For example if a southern official want to improve a province, he'll have to travel all the way up north to the capital and ask for the Emperor's permission.

Image a day in the court, the Emperor rises at 4am, enter the court at 5am. There he and his officials have a grand meeting until 5. All the meals will be in the hall. All the toilet will be in the hall (terrifying!) The Emperor return to his quarters at 5pm dine at 6pm go to sleep at 8pm.

And China indeed had low production efficiency. Look at how many shortages of food every year in their history. They are not capable of building sea faring ship. Silk trading is so rare it only remains within the court's use. Even their food is a rice bun with nothing inside (peasant's food)

 

[CaptRobau]

They are not capable of building sea faring ship.

15th century Chinese treasure ship. Next to it is Colombus' Santa Maria.

 

[Darkath]

Chinese administration blushed the European. But there simply too much work to do with a too centralised state. For example if a southern official want to improve a province, he'll have to travel all the way up north to the capital and ask for the Emperor's permission.

Image a day in the court, the Emperor rises at 4am, enter the court at 5am. There he and his officials have a grand meeting until 5. All the meals will be in the hall. All the toilet will be in the hall (terrifying!) The Emperor return to his quarters at 5pm dine at 6pm go to sleep at 8pm.

And China indeed had low production efficiency. Look at how many shortages of food every year in their history. They are not capable of building sea faring ship. Silk trading is so rare it only remains within the court's use. Even their food is a rice bun with nothing inside (peasant's food)

Please read the story of the great admiral Zheng He.

Chinese mariners reached Swahili and somalia before europeans knew it existed ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

 

[ANO1453]

And China indeed had low production efficiency. Look at how many shortages of food every year in their history.

Yet they had automated industries. Waterwheels would feed bellows to sustain the furnace fires, and even flour mills. I saw the example of a single waterwheel sustaining 6 different grinding mechanisms in a mill. And we also have the industrialised pottery and porcelain production.

They are not capable of building sea faring ship.

I wonder how pirates travelled all along the China sea.

Silk trading is so rare it only remains within the court's use.

Silk route anyone?

Even their food is a rice bun with nothing inside (peasant's food)

For peasants, it may be (although I was under the impression they also ate pork and chicken). For the rest, they had pheasant and other expensive meats.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

China had famines because it was overpopulated and also vulnerable to natural disasters.

Though I think the difficulty of governing a huge empire from a single court in Beijing should be represented... but any state that's so large should experience such difficulties.

 

[1alexey]

Yet they had automated industries. Waterwheels would feed bellows to sustain the furnace fires, and even flour mills. I saw the example of a single waterwheel sustaining 6 different grinding mechanisms in a mill. And we also have the industrialised pottery and porcelain production.

Mechanisation!= automation. And Europeans had water weel since the Greek times, so i hardly see your point.

 

[hhyy_best]

Lol they are rebelling not because they are being 'Chinese' (Im not racist toward Chinese) But because they are a country formed by many dominant groups of people and hundred more minorities.

Ming back then had like 4 dominant groups. Manchurian came and formed Qing thus became China today, 5 dominant group of people. The Han people (Chinese Ming) really hated the Manchurian (Mongolian Manchurian Qing) and both group often revolted against each other many times. They had spies, rebel official in the court, pretenders, etc and often trade sword at each other every time they find a chance. The Southern really hated the Northern. The South Western doesn't really care. The North West revolted to the point of uncontrollable (They are mostly nomadic Mongolians back from the 11th century)

Majorities of the revolts happens every years due to famine, corruption like you said around the country. But the hottest rebels war would be between North vs South, North vs West.

Later in Qing, North vs South and North East vs South East. The rebellions continued all the way until Communist China took over the entire country. The last well known rebellion was Tienanmen Square and Tibet.

China was full of social strife due to their size, their different cultures, their policies, internal strife, natural disasters etc. Because the court had to deal with these things for such a long time each dynasty can't last long against the growing rebellions. Which is why you see China's dynasties changed every 100-300 years.

While in Europe, you only have French vs English vs German, Poland vs Sweden vs Russia vs Ottoman, Italian states choked each other with pasta, etc Dynasties are pretty much marry to each others, each time a dynasty changes, it's either through marriages or a small scheme, and a little civil war. The only earliest major and shocking rebellion Europe had was the French republic and it already terrified them.

Beside, I only wanted to weaken China because they are historically like that. If not, you would see Chinese invade Poland as early as the 1500s And this time, they have superior technology as well in manpower.

This is not correct, the Manchu and Northwest Mongols is already other playable ''countries'' in the game, when we say Ming, it means the Ming in Game with the territoy of Ming Proper. And the southwest part is represented by different culture and different religion which do cause some rebel prob.

And where is the source of that Southern Chinese hates Northern Chinese? Most rebels want to rule the china instead of ''take XXX from north'',"reconquest XXX from south".

I also agree that China need nerf, without the nerf i remeber the case when I and my friend give Ming the weastern tech group and leave it as the final boss... It' just about the way to nerf.

 

[hhyy_best]

Chinese administration blushed the European. But there simply too much work to do with a too centralised state. For example if a southern official want to improve a province, he'll have to travel all the way up north to the capital and ask for the Emperor's permission.

First of all, only big project will require the approvement from the emperor. Then the local officials will send a messenger to the capital with a letter (奏摺) and the emperor will reply with red color then let the ministry to do this do that or send back a command say yes. He do not need to go to the capital himself in most cases. Only very important or confidential thing can make the official leave his province.


And for the production, China has farmine in areas due to natural disasters such as flood. China usually do not have farmine over the whole country, so you can not blame the farmine to low production rate.

 

[lazysunside]

15th century Chinese treasure ship. Next to it is Colombus' Santa Maria.

Ah, Zheng He's story. I figured someone would put this in sooner or later.

Ok this is what you called a sea faring vessel. Now for the sake of argument, since this is a myth of how large the ship would be, I say this is the factual ship at the time. How can this be a sea faring vessel, if not a Yangtze faring vessel. According to my understanding of Chinese history, the Emperor often have these ships under they command when they traveled through the Yangtze river while having the entire court with them.

Why is this not a sea faring vessel? Look at the size man. This vessel is broad, heavy. Can it really stable with the extreme waves of the sea? The answer is no. There are many ships that was built to match the record size. And all of them turned out to be incapable of sea faring (note that these vessel are built hundred of years later by naval super powers). All it takes is a strong wave, and it would be enough to founder or even flip this ship. Even though I would like to add, this ship is cool and it is a fitting display of Chinese power.

Later on when Zheng He died. No one really care about getting his fleet and travel around. Thus the fleet was left to die in the port. Later on the knowledge was lost by 1600s.

Please read the story of the great admiral Zheng He.

Chinese mariners reached Swahili and somalia before europeans knew it existed ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

Zheng He and his exploits. This is not new. Also Europe known about China two hundred years before China even know of Europe. However like China at the time, the European thought Marco Polo invented his stories. Zheng also had trouble convincing the Emperor to continue his journey. The journey was unpopular in the court and after Zheng died, no such similar actions were taken.

Yet they had automated industries. Waterwheels would feed bellows to sustain the furnace fires, and even flour mills. I saw the example of a single waterwheel sustaining 6 different grinding mechanisms in a mill. And we also have the industrialised pottery and porcelain production.


I wonder how pirates travelled all along the China sea.


Silk route anyone?


For peasants, it may be (although I was under the impression they also ate pork and chicken). For the rest, they had pheasant and other expensive meats.

Europe had waterwheels for furnace, flour mill and even extensive mechanic that we don't even know they had until recently. I don't see your point in greater production potential.

Chinese Pirate like every other Asian pirate traveled along the coastal area at night. And their main vessel were rafts and junks. Why Junks? these pirate are mostly Southern Chinese.

Silk Route were used by Western Chinese, Mongol, Indian, groups around India. China at the time was heavily influenced in the Eastern part. If they do any trading at all, it would be along the Eastern Coast.

It is true they had access to other luxuries such as meat and wine. But this can be only seen in the capital or other rich cities. (I would like to try that plain piece of wheat bun they eat though. I wanted to know how they can survives on these things since the three kingdoms.)

This is not correct, the Manchu and Northwest Mongols is already other playable ''countries'' in the game, when we say Ming, it means the Ming in Game with the territoy of Ming Proper. And the southwest part is represented by different culture and different religion which do cause some rebel prob.

And where is the source of that Southern Chinese hates Northern Chinese? Most rebels want to rule the china instead of ''take XXX from north'',"reconquest XXX from south".

I also agree that China need nerf, without the nerf i remeber the case when I and my friend give Ming the weastern tech group and leave it as the final boss... It' just about the way to nerf.

Ming had territories that used to belong to the Mongol's rule in the North West. Territories that belong to Mongol Manchurian in the North East. Territories belong to Southern Barbarian in the South West. The rest are Ancient Chinese kingdoms that had a different race of people. They are willing to rebel if the chance see fit.

And this is a view about why the Southern Chinese hate the Northern Chinese. I won't type all the important fact out but reading is always fun. I recommend it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_and_southern_China

I don't agree on a nerf on China, even if there is, it would be a minor set back. The Faction system that we had on EUIII is stupid it is a big fat stupid nerf. What I want is to cope with history, China is a melting pot and that is how it keeps them from expanding. Same thing happened to the Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire, etc.

First of all, only big project will require the approvement from the emperor. Then the local officials will send a messenger to the capital with a letter (奏摺) and the emperor will reply with red color then let the ministry to do this do that or send back a command say yes. He do not need to go to the capital himself in most cases. Only very important or confidential thing can make the official leave his province.

Agreed. I love it when the Emperor's order comes and everyone bow down and 'kiss' their face on the dirty to a piece of paper.

 

[ANO1453]

How can this be a sea faring vessel, if not a Yangtze faring vessel.

I don't know much about ships, but aren't junks sea faring ships? Why would a channel vessel have such big sails?

Europe had waterwheels for furnace, flour mill and even extensive mechanic that we don't even know they had until recently. I don't see your point in greater production potential.

Not saying they had greater potential; just saying they had similar potential.

And their main vessel were rafts and junks. Why Junks?

And they are capable of long sea journeys.

Silk Route were used by Western Chinese, Mongol, Indian, groups around India. China at the time was heavily influenced in the Eastern part. If they do any trading at all, it would be along the Eastern Coast.

The Silk travelled all the way to Europe. Because China produced it and traded it.

It is true they had access to other luxuries such as meat and wine. But this can be only seen in the capital or other rich cities.

You mean you only see luxury goods in rich cities? No surprise there, it happened in Europe too.

 

[lazysunside]

I don't know much about ships, but aren't junks sea faring ships? Why would a channel vessel have such big sails?


Not saying they had greater potential; just saying they had similar potential.


And they are capable of long sea journeys.


The Silk travelled all the way to Europe. Because China produced it and traded it.


You mean you only see luxury goods in rich cities? No surprise there, it happened in Europe too.

LOL Junks had big sails cuz no one want to row. Those chinese Junks does have potential to go coast to coast but not crossing a sea. For example they would last if they go from Mainland China to Taiwan, then sail along the coast to Kyushu, to a small island (forgot the name) near Korea, then to Korean and Japan. But they can't go from China to Philippine. They do have similar potential, but it is very limited. Also Europe does not have sea faring vessel until they invented the Caravel.

Silk found its way to Europe because China produced it, yes but the Silk Road is often misunderstood as a strong trade link between East and West as it is very fragile and often failed to deliver the goods because of war, bandits, and the long road. The Silk road appears to be not very reliable even though it bring great riches.

Yep it happened in Europe too. Did you know European peasants lives are the same like Chinese until they discovered the potatoes in America? Europe and their production advances happened just because they found good crop to grow and can make money off it. Such things are Tobacco, Cocoa, Sugar, Cotton that can be grow for a lot of money. It is true the Spices and Tea from Asia does render a good trade, but for some reason they can grow it in America rather than buy it from the Silk Road.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

Those chinese Junks does have potential to go coast to coast but not crossing a sea. For example they would last if they go from Mainland China to Taiwan, then sail along the coast to Kyushu, to a small island (forgot the name) near Korea, then to Korean and Japan. But they can't go from China to Philippine.

Nonsense.

The Chinese regularly sent ships back and forth between the Philippines. The whole reason the Spanish took the Philippines was to use as a trading post where they could bring Peruvian silver and the Chinese would come with Tea, Silk, Porcelain and more to trade for the silver. The Spanish traded so much silver with the Chinese they badly damaged the Chinese economy through inflation without ever sending their own ships further than the Philippines. The Chinese had their own enclaves in Manila, Puebla, Acapulco and Mexico City. They probably got to Mexico on Spanish ships but the Spanish didn't want them in Manila and kept trying to destroy their enclave, but the trade was so profitable the Chinese always returned to rebuild it.

 

[lazysunside]

Nonsense.

The Chinese regularly sent ships back and forth between the Philippines. The whole reason the Spanish took the Philippines was to use as a trading post where they could bring Peruvian silver and the Chinese would come with Tea, Silk, Porcelain and more to trade for the silver. The Spanish traded so much silver with the Chinese they badly damaged the Chinese economy through inflation without ever sending their own ships further than the Philippines. The Chinese had their own enclaves in Manila, Puebla, Acapulco and Mexico City. They probably got to Mexico on Spanish ships but the Spanish didn't want them in Manila and kept trying to destroy their enclave, but the trade was so profitable the Chinese always returned to rebuild it.

Hm, I did some research about Chinese's presence in the Phillippines. They'd been there as far as the 1000s!! But then, I doubt the ability of the Chinese junks.

Why are we talking about Chinese Junks again??

 

[ANO1453]

LOL Junks had big sails cuz no one want to row. Those chinese Junks does have potential to go coast to coast but not crossing a sea. For example they would last if they go from Mainland China to Taiwan, then sail along the coast to Kyushu, to a small island (forgot the name) near Korea, then to Korean and Japan. But they can't go from China to Philippine. They do have similar potential, but it is very limited. Also Europe does not have sea faring vessel until they invented the Caravel.

Calicut:

According to Ibn Battuta, who visited China in 1347:

…We stopped in the port of Calicut, in which there were at the time thirteen Chinese vessels, and disembarked.

US and UK

Large, ocean-going junks played a key role in Asian trade until the 19th century. One of these junks, Keying, sailed from China around the Cape of Good Hope to the United States and England between 1846 and 1848.

Across the Pacific

In 1938, E. Allen Petersen escaped the advancing Japanese armies by sailing a 36-foot (11 m) junk, Hummel Hummel, from Shanghai to California with his wife Tani and two White Russians (Czar loyalists).[15] In 1939, Richard Halliburton was lost at sea with his crew while sailing a specially constructed junk, Sea Dragon, from Hong Kong to the World Exposition in San Francisco.

In 1955, six young men sailed a Ming Dynasty-style junk from Taiwan to San Francisco.

Wikipedia

Why are we talking about Chinese Junks again??

Because supposedly the Chinese had no sea-faring capabilities.

 

[luitzen]

I think it would be cool if countries like China and Japan would be no longer so easy to steamroll since when you arrive there you are that many tech levels ahead. Diversification of technology would be a good idea. Maybe a combination of EUIII, CK and Civilization.

 

[hhyy_best]

The north and south division is usually caused by nomand invasion and the court flee to south than the nomand setup the northern government. Or it is caused be independence of province warlords whose goal is conquer the whole China and the division is because no body can conquer each other. There rarely been a time that some province just stand up and call for independence. (exception is Vietnam and Manchu which is already independent in the game). To model the province warlords, the game already have Qin, Wu, Xie etc.

In fact the bset way to model china problem is not give a strange debuff that increase rebel rate every month. Instead, just add some more small nation cores and have some event to let them randomly independent if China lost the mandate of heaven for a while. plus some events such as floods! to cause some unstable to remove the mandate of heaven. And China should have few casus belles. Declear war without casus belle? unstable! lost the mandate of heaven! civil war! Spend too many money on army so that do not have money to pacify the refugees from the flood? unstable! lost the mandate of heaven! civil war! (which is the case of the fall of Ming, constantly waring with Manchu, no enough money to pacify the refugees and no enough money to fight the rebelling refugees.).


In addition, it would be nice that the troops can rebel as the vic. currently the rebel is not a real threat to human player as you can always send armys to eliminate the rebels...

 

[lazysunside]

Calicut:

According to Ibn Battuta, who visited China in 1347:

…We stopped in the port of Calicut, in which there were at the time thirteen Chinese vessels, and disembarked.


US and UK

Large, ocean-going junks played a key role in Asian trade until the 19th century. One of these junks, Keying, sailed from China around the Cape of Good Hope to the United States and England between 1846 and 1848.


Across the Pacific

In 1938, E. Allen Petersen escaped the advancing Japanese armies by sailing a 36-foot (11 m) junk, Hummel Hummel, from Shanghai to California with his wife Tani and two White Russians (Czar loyalists).[15] In 1939, Richard Halliburton was lost at sea with his crew while sailing a specially constructed junk, Sea Dragon, from Hong Kong to the World Exposition in San Francisco.

In 1955, six young men sailed a Ming Dynasty-style junk from Taiwan to San Francisco.


Wikipedia

By sailing around the coast, it is possible to reach Calicut with just a draft. not counting the Junks

US and UK: Wonder why they can only did it in 1846 where naval going experiences was strong.

Across the pacific, in the 1938, you have enough technologies and naval understanding to sail a small boat across the pacific. People today still do that easily with enough experiences and equipment.

So far all of your recorded documents are from the 19th-20th century. Well I can conclude that the Chinese may have great sea faring abilities in near modern time. I would prefer to see them have that in Vicky 2 and HOI3, sailing junks around the world.

 

[lazysunside]

In addition, it would be nice that the troops can rebel as the vic. currently the rebel is not a real threat to human player as you can always send armys to eliminate the rebels...

This is the only thing that would make every Empire suck to play Image the British Empire had 20k of men recruited in America. All of them are American revolutionaries <3 Great success. Same would work for China to go with their rebellious nature of an Empire.