Add Setting to Disable "Unify Culture Group" and "Form New Culture"

[Zerodv]

This new culture replacing the existing ones within their borders, resulting in a homogenous identity with no regional quirks. I would like to understand when this approach would make more sense than simply having the existing culture group accepted with minimal or no cost, as in EU4, or making cultural conversion easier through manual methods.

Make it make sense, please.

Cultures need to have a mechanic effect to exist, arguably in Northern France "Francien" culture should replace most regional ones by 1700-1800, that doesn't mean there are "no regional quirks" but that's a stupid metric to begin with because there is no objective way to measure cultural differences and there is no objective or even subjective metric provided on what counts as enough "regional quirks" to represent as a culture.

There is no reason to have it happen suddendly as you are an empire, government ranks are already arbitrary in of themselves, let alone when you attach mechanics to them.

 

[ero_sk]

While I don't agree with that line of argument OP, I do agree with your request, and giving players choice to disable such things gives more freedom to configure one's experience. To each their own.

 

[Mathematician]

Cultures need to have a mechanic effect to exist, arguably in Northern France "Francien" culture should replace most regional ones by 1700-1800, that doesn't mean there are "no regional quirks" but that's a stupid metric to begin with because there is no objective way to measure cultural differences and there is no objective or even subjective metric provided on what counts as enough "regional quirks" to represent as a culture.

There is no reason to have it happen suddendly as you are an empire, government ranks are already arbitrary in of themselves, let alone when you attach mechanics to them.

That could be easily achievable with an Advance in the Age of Revolutions or Age of Absolutism that gives you a cabinet action to assimilate pops from your culture group, as long as they share the same language, into your primary culture at a very fast rate. I’d be totally fine with that. But an action that just pulls a new culture out of thin air and dumps a bunch of pops into it? That’s fucking stupid.

If I’m playing as The Netherlands and I conquer some Francien provinces, and then France decides to unify some new culture, I’m stuck with Francien pops that no longer even exist in France? How the fuck does that make sense? The entire system is completely idiotic.

The ability to form a new culture is also bullshit. A neighboring country that shares my culture can just create a new one and strip me of a huge chunk of my own pops in 10 years? That’s dumb. Cultural shifts like that should take centuries, not a decade. It shouldn’t be in the game at all.

Honestly, the fact that the team at Tinto looked at this suggestion and unironically decided to develop it makes me question their competence to make this game. Out of everything, this has made me more doubtful about the game's direction than anything else. This system is so absurd it should be treated as a joke feature, just like Jan Mayen's bear invasion, because it is that stupid.

 

[Ukrop(Furrota)]

It's historical. What can I say? There's truly nothing more realistic than merging a wide range of cultures into one single identity and making all nuance simply vanish. Kings and Emperors were masters at this. They would ride in, draw a few lines on a map, declare one culture to rule them all. They would even get to name this new culture.

I have a Russian friend who proudly tells me how beautifully unified Russia is. "We are the largest country on Earth" he says, "but from East to West, North to South, there is absolutely no cultural variation. We are identical in every way. No regional accents, no different traditions, nothing. The Czar did that for us. He unified our culture, erased all the unnecessary complexity, and now we're like one big synchronized swimming team."

Look at France, Germany, Spain, Italy. All known for their complete lack of regional differences. You definitely cannot tell a Breton from a Parisian, or a Bavarian from someone in Berlin. Same music, same food, same everything. It’s like a cultural copy-paste function was applied to the whole continent. It makes sense after all, Kings had centuries to do that and it only takes about 10 years to unify a culture.

And then there's the United States, the ultimate example of perfect unity. Go to Maine, Alabama, Illinois, or Hawaii and you won’t notice a single difference. Everyone eats the same, talks the same, thinks the same. All thanks to Trump. He did it in under ten years. He united Americans. Never call them that again. They’re Trumpians now. That’s what he named the new culture he unified.

Germany-lack of regional differences


And sky is green

 

[AntarcticRanger]

Don’t forget Canada! When it was unified, the French speaking population, métis and autochtone disappeared. They definitely didn’t need to expel the Acadians in order to make room for English speaking people in the Eastern provinces and today, the country boasts its official doctrine of monoculturalism.

We truly live in such enlightened times!

Yeah, if the mechanic works like described, I support OP 1000%. Some people might like playing in a sanitized world, but I want to experience the grim conflicts of diversity.

Unify culture only works on cultures that share both a culture group and a language, you can't integrate Quebec that way.

 

[Arizal]

Unify culture only works on cultures that share both a culture group and a language, you can't integrate Quebec that way.

That's what I understood later.

Still, a bonus in converting other cultures make a certain amount of sense, but it shouldn't be instantaneous.

 

[tempanon]

yes, every individual culture was dropped from heaven or created by your god or random sth nobody knows but absolutely cannot made by human

 

[Mathematician]

yes, every individual culture was dropped from heaven or created by your god or random sth nobody knows but absolutely cannot made by human

Culture is not the product of any single individual, no matter how powerful. It emerges organically through generations of shared experiences, language, traditions, values, customs, and beliefs. It is shaped by the daily interactions of people within communities, not by proclamations from thrones or decisions made in council chambers.

A king or cabinet member does not possess the ability to create culture or unify distinct cultural groups by decree. At best, a ruler can acknowledge the existence of multiple cultures within a realm and govern in a way that respects and treats them equally.

In earlier periods of history, rulers lacked the tools required for large-scale social engineering. There were no mass media systems, educational institutions with wide reach, or effective bureaucratic mechanisms to standardize beliefs and practices across vast populations. Culture simply moved beyond the grasp of centralized control. Even where influence was possible, it was limited, indirect, and often co-opted by the very communities it aimed to change.

 

[tempanon]

Culture is not the product of any single individual, no matter how powerful. It emerges organically through generations of shared experiences, language, traditions, values, customs, and beliefs. It is shaped by the daily interactions of people within communities, not by proclamations from thrones or decisions made in council chambers.

A king or cabinet member does not possess the ability to create culture or unify distinct cultural groups by decree. At best, a ruler can acknowledge the existence of multiple cultures within a realm and govern in a way that respects and treats them equally.

In earlier periods of history, rulers lacked the tools required for large-scale social engineering. There were no mass media systems, educational institutions with wide reach, or effective bureaucratic mechanisms to standardize beliefs and practices across vast populations. Culture simply moved beyond the grasp of centralized control. Even where influence was possible, it was limited, indirect, and often co-opted by the very communities it aimed to change.

so how would you create new cultures in the game?

 

[tempanon]

Culture is not the product of any single individual, no matter how powerful. It emerges organically through generations of shared experiences, language, traditions, values, customs, and beliefs. It is shaped by the daily interactions of people within communities, not by proclamations from thrones or decisions made in council chambers.

A king or cabinet member does not possess the ability to create culture or unify distinct cultural groups by decree. At best, a ruler can acknowledge the existence of multiple cultures within a realm and govern in a way that respects and treats them equally.

In earlier periods of history, rulers lacked the tools required for large-scale social engineering. There were no mass media systems, educational institutions with wide reach, or effective bureaucratic mechanisms to standardize beliefs and practices across vast populations. Culture simply moved beyond the grasp of centralized control. Even where influence was possible, it was limited, indirect, and often co-opted by the very communities it aimed to change.

btw, i disagree with you simply for in the game there is no an unified japan culture and it would delay my conquer

 

[Mathematician]

so how would you create new cultures in the game?

You wouldn’t need to. Just like in EU4, you would either accept the entire culture group for free, or assimilate everything to your primary culture over time. In the late game, you could unlock an advance that gives you a new cabinet action that applies to the entire country that assimilates pops of your culture group at a faster rate . Nations like Poland, France, and Japan could potentially gain earlier access to this cabinet action through unique advances, though that may not be necessary. Also, accepting cultures within your culture group could be made cheaper by default for everyone.

There are many ways to deal with this that are more immersive and realistic.

btw, i disagree with you simply for in the game there is no an unified japan culture and it would delay my conquer

I know. So far, no one who has disagreed with my point has presented a strong argument against it. Most seem more focused on convenience and achieving things with less effort than on historical accuracy or whether the mechanic actually makes sense. One of the reasons why you can start as an OPM and achieve world conquests while also converting every province to your faith and culture in EU4 is that Paradox actually listens to this kind of feedback. The end result are ridiculous mechanics that make no sense at all. Like this one that magically converts all pops in a culture group to a new culture in 10 years. Terrible both in terms of realism and gameplay.

 

[Sindai]

Unify culture group is just the EU4 cultural union mechanic phrased slightly differently.

 

[Knarraldin]

so how would you create new cultures in the game?

Why would you need to? Why should you be able to?

btw, i disagree with you simply for in the game there is no an unified japan culture and it would delay my conquer

"It would make my game easier" is not a reason to implement a mechanic. Your conquest should be delayed until you can deal with the problems that you encounter during your conquest.

 

[P.Quirinius]

I agree that the current system isn't great, but remember this feature fixes a problem that to my knowledge was not fixed otherwise: As far as I remember the game does not allow pops of an accepted culture to convert to your primary culture. Now, if you are England you would most likely accept Mercian culture (it starts as accepted actually) and as France you would maybe accept Champenois or something. England would than conquer Scotland and Ireland and in the long run would turn the Highlanders and Irish into English speaking Englishmen while Mercians would keep their culture, because they would be accepted. France would assimilate Bretons, Basques and Occitans into French speaking Frenchmen while the Champenois would keep their culture. Ι would argue this was even worse than the culture unification. I think that it went wrong when they decided that accepted pops would not assimilate similarly to how you don't need to culture convert provinces of your culture group when you are an empire in EU IV which has the same effects. This is probably good for nations like Switzerland where it prevents the primary culture (probably the germanic one) from assimilating the others, but does not work for most other nations. I think it would be better if accepted pops assimilated, but nations like Switzerland had a (semi-)unique government reform that would allow them to have multiple primary cultures.

 

[Mathematician]

I agree that the current system isn't great, but remember this feature fixes a problem that to my knowledge was not fixed otherwise: As far as I remember the game does not allow pops of an accepted culture to convert to your primary culture.

Yeah, but why would they convert if they are already accepted? Did the Catalans convert to Castilian? Did the Bavarians convert to Prussian/Brandenburgish? I do not see any reason for accepted cultures to convert. Once they are fully accepted you do not lose anything by keeping them. Primary Culture is only for mechanics like language power, cultural tradition, and cultural influence. These are not affected by whether your population belongs to the Primary Culture or to an Accepted Culture afaik.

Now, if you are England you would most likely accept Mercian culture (it starts as accepted actually) and as France you would maybe accept Champenois or something. England would than conquer Scotland and Ireland and in the long run would turn the Highlanders and Irish into English speaking Englishmen while Mercians would keep their culture, because they would be accepted. France would assimilate Bretons, Basques and Occitans into French speaking Frenchmen while the Champenois would keep their culture. Ι would argue this was even worse than the culture unification.

I do not see a Mercian culture in the English Tinto Maps, but in any case, what is the problem with that? This is not worse than culture unification, because creating a new culture brings bizarre gameplay issues, as I already mentioned in this thread, and it is completely unrealistic. The only real issue someone might have with the situation you described is "culture border gore" which is purely aesthetic. That is why when I convert border cultures I convert them to an accepted culture that is geographically adjacent. I would turn Highlanders into Scots instead of Englishmen. I would not convert the Dutch to Francien when playing France in EU4, I would convert them to Wallonian because it makes more sense for roleplaying and aesthetics, and I would still get full benefits from the Wallonian culture.

I think it would be better if accepted pops assimilated, but nations like Switzerland had a (semi-)unique government reform that would allow them to have multiple primary cultures.

Not everyone wants to erase cultures. Many players prefer to preserve cultural diversity when playing the game. For example, if I were playing as Prussia with the goal of forming Germany, I wouldn’t want the other German cultures to gradually vanish.

 

[NarcomancerPL]

I think it is good system creating new culture is probably mean to represent 2 things: renaissance and colonial nations merging cultures of the same heritage, language etc is meant to represent birth of nation. "Nation", not "Nationalism". The birth of modern concept of patriotism in 18th century so it's still within the timeframe of the game.

There is historical example that is pretty much perfect for both. Prussian culture: you could argue it was created by Teutonic Knights, but in my opinion that culture was different and it was monastic. The real Prussian distinct cultural identity born in the founded in 1466 Duchy of Prussia back then vassal of Commonwealth. After the Thirty Years War they got independence. From 1701 they were a kingdom. Their position and influence were increasing.
Prussian identity was really much different of most other German nation with their beaurocracy and military.

With Napoleon emerged an idea of German nationalism, but neither Prussia nor Austria didn't really endorse it at that time. After Napoleon, Prussia overcome Austria and in 1871 they united Germany in their own image. Today's Germans were so affected by Prussians, that the stereotypical German has the traits of stereotypical Prussians back then.

So that's the historical example.

 

[P.Quirinius]

Yeah, but why would they convert if they are already accepted? Did the Catalans convert to Castilian? Did the Bavarians convert to Prussian/Brandenburgish? I do not see any reason for accepted cultures to convert. Once they are fully accepted you do not lose anything by keeping them. Primary Culture is only for mechanics like language power, cultural tradition, and cultural influence. These are not affected by whether your population belongs to the Primary Culture or to an Accepted Culture afaik.

The big issue is the size of your primary culture matters a lot for your culture acceptance cost as you can see here under Cultural cost of Andalusi and Cultural cost of Aragonese. That means that unless France assimilates more pops to Francien, they will not be able to accept most cultures in their kingdom or only do it much later (if later advances increase culture capacity a lot). Them not having these cultures as accepted means they will not be able to core these territories which will making them weaker. So you pretty much want to increase your primary culture unless you are playing so tall you don't have many cultures to accept. Even Prussia uniting Germany would likely struggle to core Germany if they don't assimilate enough pops to their primary culture.

I do not see a Mercian culture in the English Tinto Maps

Sorry I actually meant Northumbrian. Adding Northumbrian culture is a nerf to England by the way before English culture was huge so it would have huge discounts to culture acceptance cost. It will be quite strong even now.

The point is you want to increase your primary culture as I explained, but if you are to do this, without culture unification you would only be assimilating pops that are not accepted. The problem is the cultures that it would make most sense to assimilate are the same as the cultures that it makes most sense to accept. Castilians did not assimilate the Catalans and we could argue whether they assimilated the people in Mexico more than the Catalans, I don't know honestly, I've never been there, but in general the rule that more similar cultures should assimilate more is valid, isn't it? Catalan could be preserved by keeping Spain only as a personal union for a long time, wikipedia says that Kingdom of Aragon existed until 1707, but I doubt this will happen, people probably want to see Spain on the map with Aragon included.

Edit: corrected Mercian to Northumbrian.

 

[Mathematician]

The big issue is the size of your primary culture matters a lot for your culture acceptance cost as you can see here under Cultural cost of Andalusi and Cultural cost of Aragonese. That means that unless France assimilates more pops to Francien, they will not be able to accept most cultures in their kingdom or only do it much later (if later advances increase culture capacity a lot). Them not having these cultures as accepted means they will not be able to core these territories which will making them weaker. So you pretty much want to increase your primary culture unless you are playing so tall you don't have many cultures to accept. Even Prussia uniting Germany would likely struggle to core Germany if they don't assimilate enough pops to their primary culture.

I was assuming we were comparing it to the EU4 system that makes all cultures in your culture group accepted for free when you become an Empire. That's what the system in EU5 should've been. Of course I don't expect France, Germany, Italy and other states like that to use Cultural Capacity to maintain those accepted cultures. Ideally, when you have Empire rank your cultural capacity should be used only to accept cultures outside your cultural group.

 

[P.Quirinius]

I was assuming we were comparing it to the EU4 system that makes all cultures in your culture group accepted for free when you become an Empire. That's what the system in EU5 should've been. Of course I don't expect France, Germany, Italy and other states like that to use Cultural Capacity to maintain those accepted cultures. Ideally, when you have Empire rank your cultural capacity should be used only to accept cultures outside your cultural group.

The comparison was just showing that in EU4 different causes produce the same effect and that there is a problem with accepted cultures there as well. In EU4 if you only plan a limited expansion you can role play with the culture you choose to convert people to quite reasonably, but from optimisation perspective it is usually better to convert them to your primary culture, isn't it? This allows you to accept a more profitable culture later on, while not losing the acceptance for the provinces you converted, although this obviously works well with cultures that are accepted automatically. Btw. I like your style, but I wonder if you are not getting a lot of disagrees, because people fail to understand you because of it.

 

[Raftz]

Don’t forget Canada! When it was unified, the French speaking population, métis and autochtone disappeared. They definitely didn’t need to expel the Acadians in order to make room for English speaking people in the Eastern provinces and today, the country boasts its official doctrine of monoculturalism.

We truly live in such enlightened times!

Yeah, if the mechanic works like described, I support OP 1000%. Some people might like playing in a sanitized world, but I want to experience the grim conflicts of diversity.

Cultures with a different language are not integrated into the new unified one. For instance, even if Welsh has 'British' as a cultural trait, it will not become part of a British cultural unification because it speak Brythonic.