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Asking for lower speed and pausing?

And leaving USSR is not an option - it takes a skilled player to resist Germany. If the ai is to screw them up before barbarossa - which might happen from early 1940 - it takes a genius.
 
Originally posted by Vissarion
And leaving USSR is not an option - it takes a skilled player to resist Germany. If the ai is to screw them up before barbarossa - which might happen from early 1940 - it takes a genius.
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How would the AI screw them up? Could a skilled player not slow the Germans down in France and so buy Russia more time? In the game we played yesterday, the Germans installed Vichy in about 2 months. What was the Soviet player doing with those two months that was so important? Arguing about Kars?

As for the game speed, maybe I'm slow or doing something wrong but here's an example. The UK starts with its home fleet as one fleet. Because the stupid overstacking rule is so lethal, I had to spend considerable time reorganising it and, in this case, made it into three separate balanced fleets of 12 units, each with CA,BB,CV and DD. This took quite a bit of shuffling, promotion, debarking/embarking planes, etc. I even try to balance the speed of the ships so that all the fast battleships are together (though the 39 scenario doesn't seem to have the right stats for battlecruisers like the Hood). The process then has to be repeated with the Med fleet in Alex.

I don't like to pause the game for all this because I'm aware that there are players sitting around doing little but research and idle chatter (e.g. USA). Taking endless pains to make the perfect plan seems rude and impractical. But perhaps I should take my time and let the isolationists suffer. Then maybe they will be more keen to play a country that is fighting.

In the game yesterday, I took military control of France and spent a bit of time reorganising their units too (the AI really has no clue - it tries to put everything into the Maginot line). I then went off to do something else like redeploying units in India and then when I came back I found that the Germans were already in Paris. Grr.

Andrew
 
Originally posted by redawn
I tried playing a solo game as USSR using the 39 scenario but didn't experience the same problem. Maybe the cause depends upon the choices made for an event like the Winter War or Moltov-Ribbentrop Pact?
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I think its a problem with multiplayer rather than choices made.

Originally posted by redawn
Anyway, maybe one could play a solo game to Jan 40 and then cut/paste the ministers from a save of that into the relevant place in the save of the 39 game??
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Maybe, but the ministers look fine in the file. Ill try comparing it with an old sp game and then ill come back.

Originally posted by redawn
More generally I didn't like the pace of the game - it seemed to be going far too quickly and there was no way I could keep up with events in France while still making preparations in India and elsewhere. What speed was that session run at?
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Just say you need a longer time, the impatient once can go and do something else if they cant wait. The speed was below normal. I was pretty stressed too.

Originally posted by redawn
The UK has so much to do that it's not sensible for it to try and run France and the CW too. I really think that there ought to be a French player in these games so that Germany gets some serious opposition in the opening campaign. I find it very irritating that we have players just fooling around as the USA and USSR while major powers like France and China are raped by the Axis because they are left to the AI. Given that USA and USSR are very powerful if optimised by power gamers then it would balance the game for them to be left to the AI in the early stages. Or we should try to get 8 players - the number that the game was designed for.
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I agree. Also if players drop then it really doesnt matter because there are enough players to cover the most importent ones.

When I played UK I found it better not to control France and Poland, since there was no time to give any orders anyway.
 
I started a thread on the Soviet minister bug and it now contains a fix. See Soviet minister bug

A couple of us should try playing a test game with the new files to ensure that they fix the problem. We would then need to ensure that all prospective players have the files installed. And then we need to decide what we're doing on Monday:

1. trying to restart a patched version of the saved game
2. starting again with 36
3. starting again with 39
4. starting again with 41 :)

Andrew
 
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Andrew, I suggest you try playing Soviet when the Germans attack, after Soviet has been controlled by the ai from start.

Here are some of the errors the ai will make:

-Not upgrading enough/the right provinces
-Researching completely wrong (this is maybe the major one, ai will research nuclear, nacal and all the things Soviet don't need, neglecting infantry/tanks)
-Army will be much weaker


Do you really mean you think the ai is as good as a human player?


When you play USA/Soviet you have to expect many hours without battle, and I am aware of that. I apologize if I bothered you with my 4-5 sentences. Sorry.
 
@redawn: IMHO a mixed fleet is not a good idea.

If you have a mixed fleet and your opponent has only single-type fleets you will lose most of the time. Unless you run into 12 destroyers, but even then your opponent can retreat them quickly.

I normally have surface-to-surface fleet without destroyers, sub-hunter with only destroyers and pure sub-fleets.
 
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Originally posted by Isebrand
I normally have surface-to-surface fleet without destroyers, sub-hunter with only destroyers and pure sub-fleets.
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Me too. I have experienced that a fleet with BB's, CA's and DD's will lose against subs (even if you have 3-4 DD's, any more would make you weaker against CA/BB enemy fleets).
 
Originally posted by Vissarion
Here are some of the errors the ai will make:
-Not upgrading enough/the right provinces
-Researching completely wrong (this is maybe the major one, ai will research nuclear, nacal and all the things Soviet don't need, neglecting infantry/tanks)
-Army will be much weaker
Do you really mean you think the ai is as good as a human player?
When you play USA/Soviet you have to expect many hours without battle, and I am aware of that. I apologize if I bothered you with my 4-5 sentences. Sorry.
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No need for apology (or sarcasm :)). I'm not bitter - just explaining my viewpoint and thoughts in the interest of making things better for everyone.

Of course, the AI is not as good as a human player. But what is the best place for the human player to spend his time? In a peaceful country doing nothing or in an active country, commanding its troops in battle? If there are balance issues then maybe there are workrounds. For example, supposing a single player is responsible for USSR/France. Perhaps they could start as USSR during the initial pause and give orders for all the province upgrades and research projects. Then while the game is still paused, we could rehost and the same player then takes over France for 3 months, say. The same might be done with USA/China. This sounds like more fun to me. And balance-wise there are pros and cons which should even out. The AI won't do a perfect job of being a regent for the USA/USSR but the human player should make a difference to the life-span of the weaker countries (France/China) which might make up for it.

Still this is an expedient because we only have 6 players rather than 8. If we do manage to get 8, I really don't mid being one of the weaker countries for the entire game. I don't have much experience with the big countries. I played USSR for the first time to investigate the minister bug and found it too easy to decide what to research - you just choose most of the available projects in the inf/armour/artillery trees. Whe you play Italy or UK, you have to make choices ...

Andrew
 
I would also like France and/or Nationalist China, and we might be able to get 2 players for Monday.

Your idea is good, but the ai will cancel research and unit production, etc etc. I think a country should be played all the way through. Anyone playing USA or Soviet must expect to do nothing for a long while.
Personally USA suits me very fine next week because I have quite a lot to that can be done while playing a passive nation :)

France and Nat Chi would be very nice.
 
Why 36 is better

I also prefer 36... for the following reasons

1. Less bugs
2. Much less units at start so less lag and less head aches for the players
3. More flexibility in building up your contry the way you like

Regarding France and Natchi, I have issues as follows

1. The more players, the more difficult it is to keep a game going and the higher the probability of lag or CTD

2. China has to be severely restricted otherwise the game is derailed. Restrictions are :

a. Natchi can only join allies and only after the US is at war
b. Natchi can only dow the following : communist china, sinkiang, tibet and Siam AND only if they are not allied with anyone

3. France is also problematic and requires

a. The french player is obligated to accept Vichy f Germany offers it
b. The french may not export all his forces/resources etc .. to UK
c. The french may not use actions to destroy or otherwise prevent his fleet from becoming Vichy

Obviously b and c above are difficult to implement and lead to a lot of discussions...

In any case it is near impossible for the french to prevent the germans getting to Paris so the life span of the french player is very limited... If the intent is to help UK then better give the extra player Canada.

The question also remains of what happens to the chinese player once china is conquered by Japan.
 
I don't see why NatChi shouldn't be allowed to join the allies. If UK and France bring most of their european forces to asia to battle Japan they're taking a big chance. I don't think Japan will have any problems with being at war against the Allies as well. At least I wouldn't have any problems with it.

I agree that the frenchie shouldn't be allowed to ship all his forces out of France before german invasion. As for forced Vichy, I am not so sure. I think refusing it causes a big dissent hit, but that would only matter if the player continued.
what do the others think?
 
Re: Why 36 is better

Originally posted by Tomar
The question also remains of what happens to the chinese player once china is conquered by Japan.
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I think playing France until it has fallen and then switching to Canada is the best.


I still prefer 39, and now that there is a fix I see no reason not to play it (at least you will get a change).
 
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I don't see why NatChi shouldn't be allowed to join the allies
*******************************************

They should NOT be allowed to join the allies UNTIL the US is at war...

Otherwise guess what ,

1 . China can dow on behalf of the allies.....

2. Japan is suddenly at war not only with China but with France and UK as well


Not good
 
China can not dow on behalf of the allies, because we don't play with players that use such cheesy tricks. And as I said, Allies is not much of a problem for Japan is 37 as Japan is to the Allies.

Anyway Dag should have the last word at this if he's playing Japan. I'm sure he could handle both China and Allies though.
 
'36 sux.
And if you don't believe me - I would be willing to play '36, but only as Germany. After that game you would agree that '36 is stupid, or we at least need a few dozends extra house rules about where, when and what to attack.
 
2 of us does a test to see if the minister fix is working, and if it does, we play 39. If the 36 boys really don't want to play it, they don't have to (although it is appreciated if they do). :)

After all we're 4 against 2, and besides it would make a good change.
 
Originally posted by Isebrand
'36 sux.
And if you don't believe me - I would be willing to play '36, but only as Germany. After that game you would agree that '36 is stupid, or we at least need a few dozen extra house rules about where, when and what to attack.
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I'd take USSR in that case and you'd never get a chance to attack anything. I'd DoW Rumania to get France and Allies to DoW Germany and then swamp Germany from all directions. Game over in 36.

Andrew
 
Originally posted by redawn
I'd take USSR in that case and you'd never get a chance to attack anything. I'd DoW Rumania to get France and Allies to DoW Germany and then swamp Germany from all directions. Game over in 36.

Andrew
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Does the AI still do that? I thought it is patched, so that the Allies would actually DoW SU instead. :(

Anyway, the problem in '36 is - the Allies and SU have no clue what Germany is up to. I understand that most German players tend to happily build up force and then attack in '38 / '39. IMHO not a very good idea if you have the US in the game.

A good, but risky, strategy is to spend all IC on tanks in the first months. The Allies + SU would happily research and build industry, because they have no clue what's going on. Then Germany goes for a puppeting tour on the Balkan, thereby gathering over 70 infantry division that are a match for the SU ones. France can meanwhile be hold back, and later conquered, with the tanks.
In the next step the attack on SU follows (around late Summer '36). SU faces by now > 70 inf divisions of poor quality, + 40 German tanks divisions. Once the attack on the US starts, all IC are spend on German subs, so in the next step UK and US can be attacked.

Against the AI this is no problem at all to do, never tried it against a human. But I would love to. Of course I could also just not do it and thereby screwing up the SU + Allies economy because they busily prepare for war while I research all the higher techs. :D

BTW - I read somewhere that germany gets a lot of techs by events? Is that true? If yes, which ones are that?
 
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Germany starts out with a lot less doctrines than earlier, and now gets several docs in Spanish civil war and the treaty of München. So you'd have to wait a while for those. I'm not sure which they are, but about all the land docs you started with in earlier patches, but don't have now.
 
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