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After Dharma, China should be buffed with 2k dev to keep parity

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Dutchman251

Dutchman251

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Apr 20, 2015
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Well, the point is fairly simple... India gets some extra 1k dev in the next patch, of which it is clear that it was longer overdue since India was very rich. However, China is in a comparable situation: it's also an Asian country, it's huge, and got neglected in map updates and development additions. So I really feel that China should get a 100 new provinces and 2k dev to remain on equal footing with the Indian superregion.

And maybe it is then also time to add some real empire mechanics, that make holding an empire together costly and more difficult? Instead of some pitiful extra corruption?
 
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Dutchman251 said:
100 new provinces and 2k dev
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Lol
I don't think you realize that 2k dev spread across 100 provinces is 20 dev a province. Also China = Ming and it definitely doesn't need to be buffed. 1k+ dev at game start becoming 3k? No thanks. If anything, hopefully Dharma stops China from being an uncontested monster of a country till game end.
 
If Ming isn't developing on its own to the point that it keeps up easily with an undeveloped (but unified) India then it needs to be told to stop invading already :p
 
Darth. said:
Lol
I don't think you realize that 2k dev spread across 100 provinces is 20 dev a province. Also China = Ming and it definitely doesn't need to be buffed. 1k+ dev at game start becoming 3k? No thanks. If anything, hopefully Dharma stops China from being an uncontested monster of a country till game end.
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You're right, I should have said 250 provinces to make a good average dev count. But I also want some EMPIRE MECHANICS to keep this Ming-blob in check, and then I don't mean expansion-limiting stuff.
 
More provinces for China? Yes please. Like maybe even 1/3 more? Sure, at least.

2 times more development? Nope.

The map-updates have been very thorough since Cradle of Civilizations, but Mandate for Heaven was quite lacking in provinces in everything outside of Korea/Japan.

Won't be anytime soon that this will happen, though. Time for Europe and other regions is now. I sincerely hope that people will post some good China-suggestions here, preferably based off Chinese sources.
 
More provinces is important; aesthetically, historically and for gameplay.

Development is more a gameplay thing.

And gameplay let us see that Ming doesn't need a development buff.
 
India has not gained "1k" development in the patch. It was increased by about 20% - 25%.
According to most estimates (though we should note population estimation is no exact science) Chinese population has been about the same (most of the time slightly smaller) compared to India's throughout the centuries.
GDP estimates (which are obviously even more speculative) also usually place both regions on par.

Now it is true we do artificially reduce both regions development for gameplay purposes. If we had not they should both individually have bigger economies than all of Europe combined, however that is not the case after Dharma, just as it was not the case before it :)
 
Trin Tragula said:
India has not gained "1k" development in the patch. It was increased by about 20% - 25%.
According to most estimates (though we should note population estimation is no exact science) Chinese population has been about the same (most of the time slightly smaller) compared to India's throughout the centuries.
GDP estimates (which are obviously even more speculative) also usually place both regions on par.

Now it is true we do artificially reduce both regions development for gameplay purposes. If we had not they should both individually have bigger economies than all of Europe combined, however that is not the case after Dharma, just as it was not the case before it :)
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I do wonder what your viewpoint on the amount of Chinese provinces is after Dharma, though.

I get the argument about development, but provinces in China are quite big and unrefined next to India and the Middle East. I also get that we probably won't see a Chinese map-expansion anytime soon, but I'm hopeful it won't be completely ignored after Mandate of Heaven.

Maybe bigger map expansions like Art of War (additions to most of the world) or Common Sense (additions in some key-regions) might satisfy the crowds more? If they're do-able, that is, from a business-perspective mostly.

I remember that most people look back fondly at all of the attention the Rest of the World got in Art of War. You guys also used a few talented modders to change specific regions, which was really cool.
 
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Did not mean to imply that China is perfect :) (and would not want to promise anything for the EU4 team)
Just wanted to point out that adding 2 000 development to it like the OP asks for (which is more than the sum total of India still post Dharma) is not really called for. ;)
 
Trin Tragula said:
Did not mean to imply that China is perfect :) (and would not want to promise anything for the EU4 team)
Just wanted to point out that adding 2 000 development to it like the OP asks for (which is more than the sum total of India still post Dharma) is not really called for. ;)
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Thanks for your answer, by the way. It's always nice to see the devs reply in the suggestions subforum. :)
 
Trin Tragula said:
Did not mean to imply that China is perfect :) (and would not want to promise anything for the EU4 team)
Just wanted to point out that adding 2 000 development to it like the OP asks for (which is more than the sum total of India still post Dharma) is not really called for. ;)
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It would totally suffice to review the province count per area in the China region (now, usually 5 per area), especially given the new balance after Dharma.

Fortunately for you, you'll not have to bother about this anymore, given there is no Ming in "Imperator Rome" ;)
But who knows: empire mechanics IP -> EUIV??? :D
 
Canute VII said:
Fortunately for you, you'll not have to bother about this anymore, given there is no Ming in "Imperator Rome" ;)
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There is. It's called the Mauryan Empire. And it's in India :p
 
This is such a troll post. LOL.
 
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I am HERE to get ready for many Respectfully Disagreements to my post there then, I dont mind these opponents any more now.

I guess Dutchman251's post means 2k total devs and 200+ provs for Ming China, this is reasonable, expecially when we consider the ability of Indian states to develop theae provinces, in 1821 I believe India could have over 2200 devs when Ming only has about 1200 devs if Mingplosion never have happened.

However I also think 6K devs with higher debuff for Ming is very good if we never consider game BALANCE. In fact I hate people in forum abuse using GAME BALANCE to avoid talking the actual meaning of Development, Development should be something hooked with actual value in the world history, not a mana value which could be added by points, otherwise we will lose the soul of PDS games to map painting games like what Johan said and did and there would never be Vicky3 any more.
I choose population as the actual meaning of development, in 1444 Ming China should have about 90-100 million population, though I know little about Indian historical demographics( I guess there is no materials to research it before Mughul's coming), I guess there should be 80-90 million people in India subcontinent in 1444AD, if we use the France standard of pop/dev ratio, which is 15K pop=1 DEV, Ming China should have 6000DEV and India should have a little less than it.

While in many ways, the vanila can not afford the horrible rebalance which MT can afford, the Game balance indeed need to be maintained, when India got 1800DEV in 1444AD scanerio, the Ming China need totally 1800-2000 DEVs and enough provinces matched or even surpasses the province number of India.

However someone else need put forward the reasonable project to make PDS could refer it, which can not be found in this forum, otherwise PDS should be hard to do it correctly. I, as a Chinese player, have planned over two years to try to make a proper one overhaul project, while now I find it too hard for me to fill provinces history and something else I need to polish:
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After my research, I found more and more unknown to me: Study has no limit, my knownleage also has no limit.
These tusi in Sichuan, Guizhou, Guangxi, Yunnan and even Huguang need to be added, and also provinces history and provinces terrain. I found Ming China need at least 300 provinces to express most of Prefectures and sub-Prefectures in Ming history, I do not know whether I could complete it before next month, I hope I could complete it soon.
 
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Trin Tragula said:
Did not mean to imply that China is perfect :) (and would not want to promise anything for the EU4 team)
Just wanted to point out that adding 2 000 development to it like the OP asks for (which is more than the sum total of India still post Dharma) is not really called for. ;)
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Hello, Trin
My Chinese province overhaul has planned 326 provinces for Ming and its firmly tusi in 1444AD, which tusi have at least 25 provinces. And I also have drawn a map for Dai Viet in 1444AD with 27 provinces and 177 developments.
Hope for your respond soon.

NaiveCarto
 
@NaiveCarto I really like what you've done to China, but it's just too big to get included. Paradox never includes all of the administrative subdivisions of a tag in the game.

Development has also been discussed here, and the developers clearly don't want massive buffs. Whether its historical or not; that's just gameplay for you. A 2k/3k dev China is just not going to happen, whether you disagree with that notion or not; Ming doesn't need it gameplay-wise.

I like your suggestion, as it can be a basis of a good and well-explained overhaul. But a whole lot of provinces need to be merged together to make it feasible for the current base-game. Ming controls around 110 provinces at the moment (~4 of them unjustly; Yumen and the Ordos should be under control of Sarig Yogir and Mongol tribes, respectfully), so I guess you can aim for 40-50% more. 200+ provinces is overkill-area, I'm sure of that.

So, if you're able to make a more realistic setup AND explain your decisions with sources and other information, then it's more likely that they'll listen to you. 160-170 provinces might be a nice sweet spot to properly portray the wealth and density of China.

Just don't be 'naive', as your username implies, and listen to constructive criticism and the developer's philosophy for the game, too.

India was politically divided, so it warrants more provinces, like the HRE. Development also doesn't mean population; it's quite arbitrary, really. India also doesn't have close to 2000 development in the upcoming patch.
 
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