After Dharma, China should be buffed with 2k dev to keep parity

[Dutchman251]

Well, the point is fairly simple... India gets some extra 1k dev in the next patch, of which it is clear that it was longer overdue since India was very rich. However, China is in a comparable situation: it's also an Asian country, it's huge, and got neglected in map updates and development additions. So I really feel that China should get a 100 new provinces and 2k dev to remain on equal footing with the Indian superregion.

And maybe it is then also time to add some real empire mechanics, that make holding an empire together costly and more difficult? Instead of some pitiful extra corruption?

 

[Trin Tragula]

I would not claim to be an expert on demographics but usually the Indian subcontinent is estimated slightly above chinas population. This is even true today (remember the subcontinent and the in game region includes modern Bangladesh, Nepal and most of Pakistan).

Regardless, what I really came to say was to repeat above where I say the Indian total is still below 2000 (no I don’t remember the exact number, but I do know the OP must have come up with it himself) so your guess of 2200 (which I’m not sure what you based on?) is quite wrong.
I also think you’ll find vanilla will always apply balance considerations on top of any such estimates. The way this game works it would not work as a game if Ming alone had more development than all of Europe combined, even if it would mirror reality as far as we know.

I am however sure that a map of provinces to consider and why they are important is something that would be useful if the eu4 team revisits China. The same goes for arguing Chinese development in relation to nearby regions rather than in relation to France

 

[Dutchman251]

India has not gained "1k" development in the patch. It was increased by about 20% - 25%.
According to most estimates (though we should note population estimation is no exact science) Chinese population has been about the same (most of the time slightly smaller) compared to India's throughout the centuries.
GDP estimates (which are obviously even more speculative) also usually place both regions on par.

Now it is true we do artificially reduce both regions development for gameplay purposes. If we had not they should both individually have bigger economies than all of Europe combined, however that is not the case after Dharma, just as it was not the case before it

Well, my number was just there to show that development should be significantly increased; it is not so much about adding exactly 2.000,00 dev.

And to the last point: Just this. I think the game would immensely benefit from adding this development, and then limiting it's effective use by some M&T-like mechanics (not so much the mechanics, but the things that make huge empires less stable and very hard to govern). That's what the game needs to limit blobbing, IMHO. Not some corruption increases.

 

[NaiveCarto]

Hello Mr Trin
I hope to see any papers on population estimation on Indian subcontinent before Mughul's come, after I refer to wikipedia page: Demographics of India, I could give a table to compare the totally Indian subcontinent and Ming/Qing Dynasty:

Year India Year China Dynasty China data by Maddison
1391 70.6M
1500 110M 1500 103M
1600 135M 1630 186.7M 1600 160M
1650 150M 1644 150.1M
1700 165M 1679 160M 1700 138M
1750 182M 1776 311.5M
1820 209M 1820 383.1M 1820 381M
* India Data is from Maddison(2001), his estimation is rather very high.
*Chinese Data comes from "The population history of China" Volume5 and Volume6, the pop data is the most authoratitive and is in most common used in China today, while for no good data of Ming population after 1391, the population increase ratio is set as very low....

I never want to figure out what development should represent, it is up to EU4 group, though I hope it could be hooked up with something history indeed.

As for my overhaul project, I have reduced the province number yet otherwise you could find a Ming with 434 provinces in 1444 scanerio. I think this 326-province overhaul plan has enough provinces which hard to be removed, otherwise the shape of many provinces could be strange and many important provinces would be merged.
While, I would try my best to do a version with less provinces if it is needed.

#It seems that Forum need a table feature:

 

[Mingmung]

Hello Mr Trin
I hope to see any papers on population estimation on Indian subcontinent before Mughul's come, after I refer to wikipedia page: Demographics of India, I could give a table to compare the totally Indian subcontinent and Ming/Qing Dynasty:

Year India Year China Dynasty China data by Maddison
1391 70.6M
1500 110M 1500 103M
1600 135M 1630 186.7M 1600 160M
1650 150M 1644 150.1M
1700 165M 1679 160M 1700 138M
1750 182M 1776 311.5M
1820 209M 1820 383.1M 1820 381M
* India Data is from Maddison(2001), his estimation is rather very high.
*Chinese Data comes from "The population history of China" Volume5 and Volume6, the pop data is the most authoratitive and is in most common used in China today, while for no good data of Ming population after 1391, the population increase ratio is set as very low....

I never want to figure out what development should represent, it is up to EU4 group, though I hope it could be hooked up with something history indeed.

As for my overhaul project, I have reduced the province number yet otherwise you could find a Ming with 434 provinces in 1444 scanerio. I think this 326-province overhaul plan has enough provinces which hard to be removed, otherwise the shape of many provinces could be strange and many important provinces would be merged.
While, I would try my best to do a version with less provinces if it is needed.

#It seems that Forum need a table feature:
View attachment 398232

Population figures won't change a thing; whether India had more population than China or not, doesn't matter.

Development is just a gameplay-thing with a slight historical basis, that's all.

It's better to focus on the amount of provinces and make a detailed thread about that instead of further argueing about populations. 300 is still too much, whether you think all of them are equally important or not, it's just unrealistically dense compared to the rest of the region / world.

I'd focus on ~180 provinces, first. Seems quite reasonable for a redraw of the likes of India / Middle East. Province-shapes don't have to be 100% historical, too. There are also a lot of in-game provinces based off cities.

 

[NaiveCarto]

Population figures won't change a thing; whether India had more population than China or not, doesn't matter.

Development is just a gameplay-thing with a slight historical basis, that's all.

It's better to focus on the amount of provinces and make a detailed thread aboit that instead of further argueing about populations. 300 is still too much, whether you think all of them are equally important or not, it's just unrealistically dense compared to the rest of the region / world.

I'd focus on ~180 provinces, first. Seems quite reasonable for a redraw of the likes of India / Middle East.

Yeah, Development dont have hooked up with anything else in reality world, according to EU4 group's strategy, China and India would have the same-level development and province number vaule.
I would fall into mad if trying to decrease province number from 300+ to 180, maybe others could do it, while I will fall into dilemma for months or even years......This should be a disease of me indeed.
In fact I would like to ask how many provinces could you afford, While, it can be dangerous and impossible to find answers....

 

[Canute VII]

I am HERE to get ready for many Respectfully Disagreements to my post there then, I dont mind these opponents any more now.

I guess Dutchman251's post means 2k total devs and 200+ provs for Ming China, this is reasonable, expecially when we consider the ability of Indian states to develop theae provinces, in 1821 I believe India could have over 2200 devs when Ming only has about 1200 devs if Mingplosion never have happened.

However I also think 6K devs with higher debuff for Ming is very good if we never consider game BALANCE. In fact I hate people in forum abuse using GAME BALANCE to avoid talking the actual meaning of Development, Development should be something hooked with actual value in the world history, not a mana value which could be added by points, otherwise we will lose the soul of PDS games to map painting games like what Johan said and did and there would never be Vicky3 any more.
I choose population as the actual meaning of development, in 1444 Ming China should have about 90-100 million population, though I know little about Indian historical demographics( I guess there is no materials to research it before Mughul's coming), I guess there should be 80-90 million people in India subcontinent in 1444AD, if we use the France standard of pop/dev ratio, which is 15K pop=1 DEV, Ming China should have 6000DEV and India should have a little less than it.

While in many ways, the vanila can not afford the horrible rebalance which MT can afford, the Game balance indeed need to be maintained, when India got 1800DEV in 1444AD scanerio, the Ming China need totally 1800-2000 DEVs and enough provinces matched or even surpasses the province number of India.

However someone else need put forward the reasonable project to make PDS could refer it, which can not be found in this forum, otherwise PDS should be hard to do it correctly. I, as a Chinese player, have planned over two years to try to make a proper one overhaul project, while now I find it too hard for me to fill provinces history and something else I need to polish:
View attachment 398215 View attachment 398216 View attachment 398217 View attachment 398218 View attachment 398219 View attachment 398220 View attachment 398221 View attachment 398222 View attachment 398223 View attachment 398224 View attachment 398225

After my research, I found more and more unknown to me: Study has no limit, my knownleage also has no limit.
These tusi in Sichuan, Guizhou, Guangxi, Yunnan and even Huguang need to be added, and also provinces history and provinces terrain. I found Ming China need at least 300 provinces to express most of Prefectures and sub-Prefectures in Ming history, I do not know whether I could complete it before next month, I hope I could complete it soon.

Keep up this work, please, if you enjoy it! The EU dev team needs this kind of input by the chinese (or indeed any other) community, which has probably much better access to certain sources, especially if only available in chinese language.

However, I would advise that you focus on provinces, states, cultures, terrain, trade goods, religion (I'm desperately missing a distinct Dao religion) and overally keep development stale (some development might still be added if very well argued for, but max. 50 imho).

I believe if your changes would push Ming beyond the state-territory threshold and it incurs some non-negligible corruption (like it should, on a historically accurate basis), then development may not be the primary balance concern anymore.

edit: in particular I would slso love to sea more island provinces along the chinese coast.

 

[NaiveCarto]

Keep up this work, please, if you enjoy it! The EU dev team needs this kind of input by the chinese (or indeed any other) community, which has probably much better access to certain sources, especially if only available in chinese language.

However, I would advise that you focus on provinces, states, cultures, terrain, trade goods, religion (I'm desperately missing a distinct Dao religion) and overally keep development stale (some development might still be added if very well argued for, but max. 50 imho).

I believe if your changes would push Ming beyond the state-territory threshold and it incurs some non-negligible corruption (like it should, on a historically accurate basis), then development may not be the primary balance concern anymore.

edit: in particular I would slso love to sea more island provinces along the chinese coast.

I have used Dao道 as the main foundation of areas, while Dao is never a government division rank before Later Qing after Tang dynasty.

I would not persuade PDS to give Ming China too many development compared to India, it can not be accepted by PDS and most players in forum , I believe it.

I have researched a lot on provinces,cultures, trade goods and states, while I feel difficult to research religion and these things in depth level, I also have an idea to nerf Ming indeed and match history....Island provinces should be added to react Zheng Chenggong's power while they are too small, I would like to refer to prefecture setting in history and not split them, so I would not add many island provinces except they are heavily in need.

 

[gronak]

I am HERE to get ready for many Respectfully Disagreements to my post there then, I dont mind these opponents any more now.

I guess Dutchman251's post means 2k total devs and 200+ provs for Ming China, this is reasonable, expecially when we consider the ability of Indian states to develop theae provinces, in 1821 I believe India could have over 2200 devs when Ming only has about 1200 devs if Mingplosion never have happened.

However I also think 6K devs with higher debuff for Ming is very good if we never consider game BALANCE. In fact I hate people in forum abuse using GAME BALANCE to avoid talking the actual meaning of Development, Development should be something hooked with actual value in the world history, not a mana value which could be added by points, otherwise we will lose the soul of PDS games to map painting games like what Johan said and did and there would never be Vicky3 any more.
I choose population as the actual meaning of development, in 1444 Ming China should have about 90-100 million population, though I know little about Indian historical demographics( I guess there is no materials to research it before Mughul's coming), I guess there should be 80-90 million people in India subcontinent in 1444AD, if we use the France standard of pop/dev ratio, which is 15K pop=1 DEV, Ming China should have 6000DEV and India should have a little less than it.

While in many ways, the vanila can not afford the horrible rebalance which MT can afford, the Game balance indeed need to be maintained, when India got 1800DEV in 1444AD scanerio, the Ming China need totally 1800-2000 DEVs and enough provinces matched or even surpasses the province number of India.

However someone else need put forward the reasonable project to make PDS could refer it, which can not be found in this forum, otherwise PDS should be hard to do it correctly. I, as a Chinese player, have planned over two years to try to make a proper one overhaul project, while now I find it too hard for me to fill provinces history and something else I need to polish:
View attachment 398215 View attachment 398216 View attachment 398217 View attachment 398218 View attachment 398219 View attachment 398220 View attachment 398221 View attachment 398222 View attachment 398223 View attachment 398224 View attachment 398225

After my research, I found more and more unknown to me: Study has no limit, my knownleage also has no limit.
These tusi in Sichuan, Guizhou, Guangxi, Yunnan and even Huguang need to be added, and also provinces history and provinces terrain. I found Ming China need at least 300 provinces to express most of Prefectures and sub-Prefectures in Ming history, I do not know whether I could complete it before next month, I hope I could complete it soon.

What's the reasoning for turning beijing into an end node?

I strongly disagree with china having so much development, how do you expect countries such as Russia or a manchu tribe to possibly invade it? It's important to remember that population =/= development, AS THE DEVS HAVE EVEN SAID, IT'S NOT JUST "people in forum" SAYING THIS. China's development in game is currently higher than India's. After the update, India will have slightly more. The development of India and China should be similar to each other, so nothing is too off here. China having 2k extra is simply ridiculous. 6k development for Ming (not even the whole of china?!) is surely a troll?! If for some reason they were given obscene amounts of development, I would expect China to never get past tech 21, as is realistic. Ming is already stupidly OP.

 

[NaiveCarto]

What's the reasoning for turning beijing into an end node?

I strongly disagree with china having so much development, how do you expect countries such as Russia or a manchu tribe to possibly invade it? It's important to remember that population =/= development, AS THE DEVS HAVE EVEN SAID, IT'S NOT JUST "people in forum" SAYING THIS. China's development in game is currently higher than India's. After the update, India will have slightly more. The development of India and China should be similar to each other, so nothing is too off here. China having 2k extra is simply ridiculous. 6k development for Ming (not even the whole of china?!) is surely a troll?! If for some reason they were given obscene amounts of development, I would expect China to never get past tech 21, as is realistic. Ming is already stupidly OP.

China's development in game is currently higher than India's-----Please open the EU4 vanlla please.
China having 2k extra is simply ridiculous.----I never said that.TOTAL please.
After the update, India will have slightly more.-----Slight more, over about 700 DEVs and even more over years is right.
6k development for Ming (not even the whole of china---This is my opinion for my mod not for my overhaul project.
Ming is already stupidly OP.----Please blame on EU4 which has no passiable supply system and is a Rolling snowball game.
countries such as Russia or a manchu tribe to possibly invade it----Please blame on EU4's war system.

Bye, My foreign friend....

 

[Darth.]

India was politically divided, so it warrants more provinces, like the HRE.

Let's be honest though. India was far more politically divided than any game has a hope of depicting. During the British era India was far more centralized with many princes and kings deposed and their lands incorporated into the British Raj. There were other princes who weren't deposed however, who were instead made subordinates to the British Raj as vassal princes....all 532 of them

CK2 style game set solely in India would be amazing. Clearly this must be PDX's next project.

[/jk]​

 

[NaiveCarto]

What's the reasoning for turning beijing into an end node?

I strongly disagree with china having so much development, how do you expect countries such as Russia or a manchu tribe to possibly invade it? It's important to remember that population =/= development, AS THE DEVS HAVE EVEN SAID, IT'S NOT JUST "people in forum" SAYING THIS. China's development in game is currently higher than India's. After the update, India will have slightly more. The development of India and China should be similar to each other, so nothing is too off here. China having 2k extra is simply ridiculous. 6k development for Ming (not even the whole of china?!) is surely a troll?! If for some reason they were given obscene amounts of development, I would expect China to never get past tech 21, as is realistic. Ming is already stupidly OP.

Let me give you the data , if you never want to open EU4 vanila:
1, India subcontinent, which is said to be "India" which Trin have referenced before, has 1497 developments and 151 provinces in 1.25 Vanila in 1444 scanerio.
2,Ming in 1444 scanerio, has 1113 developments and only 113 provinces in 1.25 Vanila, and 4 provinces are not of "China proper" which counts 26 developments.
3, After the Dharma update, India would have 1497*125%-130%=1872-1946 developments and 151+106=257 provinces.

I hope I could never mind my friend you, otherwise my overhaul project would be never completed this year....

 

[NaiveCarto]

Something discovered in this post:
Mr Trin before said add 25%-30% development of India in development diary.
Now he says add 20%-25% development instead.
It sounds interesting...

 

[gronak]

China's development in game is currently higher than India's-----Please open the EU4 vanlla please.
China having 2k extra is simply ridiculous.----I never said that.TOTAL please.
After the update, India will have slightly more.-----Slight more, over about 700 DEVs and even more over years is right.
6k development for Ming (not even the whole of china---This is my opinion for my mod not for my overhaul project.
Ming is already stupidly OP.----Please blame on EU4 which has no passiable supply system and is a Rolling snowball game.
countries such as Russia or a manchu tribe to possibly invade it----Please blame on EU4's war system.

Bye, My foreign friend....

China has slightly more. I did not say Ming. Ming alone shouldn't be more powerful than the entire continent of India imo. So 20% more dev in india would mean around 300 more development.

I misread you on the 2k development part, so I apologise.

I think it's pretty balanced right now, and don't think the extra dev in India will make too much of a difference gameplaywise unless India is often fully united.


As for your comments on blaming the war system, I can agree to an extent with it. This doesn't mean however that you should just shrug your shoulders and boost development anyway. The game should be balanced for how it is now. If later the war system is changed so it isn't always just the richest country wins, then it'd be fine to rework development across the world.

Let me give you the data , if you never want to open EU4 vanila:
1, India subcontinent, which is said to be "India" which Trin have referenced before, has 1497 developments and 151 provinces in 1.25 Vanila in 1444 scanerio.
2,Ming in 1444 scanerio, has 1113 developments and only 113 provinces in 1.25 Vanila, and 4 provinces are not of "China proper" which counts 26 developments.
3, After the Dharma update, India would have 1497*125%-130%=1872-1946 developments and 151+106=257 provinces.

I hope I could never mind my friend you, otherwise my overhaul project would be never completed this year....

I don't know where you thought up these numbers. It has been said the development is increasing by 20-25%. Not 25-30% to find out how much dev this is, we do this:
1497 x 1.2 = 1796.4 (which is about 250 dev more than China)
1497 x 1.25 = 1871.25 (which is a little over 300 dev more than China)
If you take the value between this, you get about 275 more dev than china.

 

[NaiveCarto]

China has slightly more. I did not say Ming. Ming alone shouldn't be more powerful than the entire continent of India imo. So 20% more dev in india would mean around 300 more development.

I misread you on the 2k development part, so I apologise.

I think it's pretty balanced right now, and don't think the extra dev in India will make too much of a difference gameplaywise unless India is often fully united.


As for your comments on blaming the war system, I can agree to an extent with it. This doesn't mean however that you should just shrug your shoulders and boost development anyway. The game should be balanced for how it is now. If later the war system is changed so it isn't always just the richest country wins, then it'd be fine to rework development across the world.



I don't know where you thought up these numbers. It has been said the development is increasing by 20-25%. Not 25-30% to find out how much dev this is, we do this:
1497 x 1.2 = 1796.4 (which is about 250 dev more than China)
1497 x 1.25 = 1871.25 (which is a little over 300 dev more than China)
If you take the value between this, you get about 275 more dev than china.

Even I have not counted the whole PRC's development in EU4 from EU4 released almost five years ago, sorry I even discover I am not a Chinese after my birth in Hunan twenty years ago...and I overlook the too high development of these provinces....

In history, Sinkiang, Jurchen, Tibet and Mongol are all of very very low population density, I guess population of them together never surpass 5 million in 1444.

In fact, PDS could give a decision of tag switch to hindustan/bharat/mughal to give the forever claim of whole India, while never give this kind decision to send the forever claim of all PRC, or you said China.so, I as a player of China, have no feel of PRC's map....

what I listed before to Trin has said, even the China proper shall be of the same value to the whole India, and consider the population comparation of Qing/India, China proper should have even more developments than India.

 

[gronak]

Even I have not counted the whole PRC's development in EU4 from EU4 released almost five years ago, sorry I even discover I am not a Chinese after my birth in Hunan twenty years ago...and I overview the development of these provinces....

In history, Sinkiang, Jurchen, Tibet and Mongol are all of very very low population density, I guess population of them together never surpass 5 million in 1444.

In fact, PDS could give a decision of tag switch to hindustan/bharat to give the forever claim, while never give this kind decision to send the forever claim of all PRC, or you said China.so, I as a player of China, have no feel of PRC's map....

what I listed before to Trin has said, even the China proper shall be of the same value to the whole India.

Would you rather I chose the Yuan or Qing empire borders? That's only going to add even more dev for the comparison...

 

[Mingmung]

I guess it's better to stop comparing dev and look to how China can be better presented, province-wise.

As it seems we all kind of agree with each other, except for the OP.

 

[cub298]

Huh, so the development is actually at those levels, interesting. Thank you Gronak for taking the time. I didn't know of that, my mistake.

 

[gronak]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more provinces! I just think it's important not to make already OP nations more OP. So too add more provinces to OP nations, you need to be careful when adjusting the development.

Europeans dominated in the game's timeline, it should be this way in game too.

 

[NaiveCarto]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more provinces! I just think it's important not to make already OP nations more OP. So too add more provinces to OP nations, you need to be careful when adjusting the development.

Europeans dominated in the game's timeline, it should be this way in game too.

In fact I know these diseases of Ming empire, you should not be so worried about Ming could be more OP except you are the map painter. And even you are reality map painter, I would try to make quick method to paint map....

 

[NaiveCarto]

Would you rather I chose the Yuan or Qing empire borders? That's only going to add even more dev for the comparison...

PDS’s Qing never include Tibet any more, its development should be quite less than PRC.
As for Yuan, it doesnt have Sinkiang and the tibet might not be drawn as land of Yuan, but it has more land in Siberia and Mongolia.
In breif, I am going to sleep now, bye....