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I do think that some of the benefits of this system might be superfluous due to the fact that this game distinguishes vegetation from climate, and these systems are all very much specifically trying to use climate as a proxy for vegetation.

So I think the climate system the game uses should only take into account aspects of climate useful to humans. So it doesn't really matter that this system is better at predicting rainforest distributions than Köppen, and meanwhile I want the game to have a bunch of zones for different types of winter harshness and length (an aspect that is incomplete at best in both these climate systems).
 
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I do think that some of the benefits of this system might be superfluous due to the fact that this game distinguishes vegetation from climate, and these systems are all very much specifically trying to use climate as a proxy for vegetation.

So I think the climate system the game uses should only take into account aspects of climate useful to humans. So it doesn't really matter that this system is better at predicting rainforest distributions than Köppen, and meanwhile I want the game to have a bunch of zones for different types of winter harshness and length (an aspect that is incomplete at best in both these climate systems).
Ideally vegetation is variable and can wane if human activity itself wanes. I would be interested in a climate system which is also based on which crops can grow there, not sure if there is any. GDD or GDDz could be good proxies, but I would need to see how crops behave compared to trees.

Currently both this system and koppen have an average temperature of the coldest month threshold of 0C and the new system also has a -30C coldest month threshold and the 18C all-year tropical threshold, do you really need anything else? Like to me the minutia between the coldest month being -10, -20 C doesn't seem super useful?
 
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Ideally vegetation is variable and can wane if human activity itself wanes. I would be interested in a climate system which is also based on which crops can grow there, not sure if there is any. GDD or GDDz could be good proxies, but I would need to see how crops behave compared to trees.

Currently both this system and koppen have an average temperature of the coldest month threshold of 0C and the new system also has a -30C coldest month threshold and the 18C all-year tropical threshold, do you really need anything else? Like to me the minutia between the coldest month being -10, -20 C doesn't seem super useful?
People say all the time that Russian winters being more harsh than those in Central Europe should be important, why not encode that into the game explicitly? I could also point to how northern manchuria was extremely undeveloped until the second half of the 19th century. Right now in the game, all of that is just exactly the same brand of continental.
 
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People say all the time that Russian winters being more harsh than those in Central Europe should be important, why not encode that into the game explicitly? I could also point to how northern manchuria was extremely undeveloped until the second half of the 19th century. Right now in the game, all of that is just exactly the same brand of continental.
I tested a bit, you need a coldest month threshold of -5C to split continental in 2 sizeable regions in Europe. Frankly continental exists because the climate of Poland and most of Central Russia are in fact very close.

To me it seems less an issue of winter severity and more one of winter length in terms of snow on the ground and snow depth.

Trying to put a line between cold continental and very cold continental in a way that it both represents the difference between Central Europe and Russia and Northern China and Manchuria is quite hard, a -5C threshold actually doesn't distinguish between Northernmost China+Liaoning and most of Manchuria while a -10C threshold basically puts most of European Russia and Central Europe in the same bucket.
 
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The game is already not very good at applying the köppen system itself. But yes, I will probably make a mod when the game comes out that implements better climates, likely based on this system.
Dont forget soil fertility! Because that farmland terrain is arbitrary and used to boost predetermined population centres.
 
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Dont forget soil fertility! Because that farmland terrain is arbitrary and used to boost predetermined population centres.
Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot. I think it could make sense to fold it into vegetation, since vegetation has a strong correlation with soil.
 
I tested a bit, you need a coldest month threshold of -5C to split continental in 2 sizeable regions in Europe. Frankly continental exists because the climate of Poland and most of Central Russia are in fact very close.

To me it seems less an issue of winter severity and more one of winter length in terms of snow on the ground and snow depth.

Trying to put a line between cold continental and very cold continental in a way that it both represents the difference between Central Europe and Russia and Northern China and Manchuria is quite hard, a -5C threshold actually doesn't distinguish between Northernmost China+Liaoning and most of Manchuria while a -10C threshold basically puts most of European Russia and Central Europe in the same bucket.
Personally I think an -8 C threshold would make a lot of sense. But yes, winter length might be better. Perhaps it could be something like at least 5 or 4 months below zero?

A zone for a mud season (like the Rasputitsa) would also be useful.
 
Personally I think an -8 C threshold would make a lot of sense. But yes, winter length might be better. Perhaps it could be something like at least 5 or 4 months below zero?

A zone for a mud season (like the Rasputitsa) would also be useful.
Ok I looked a bit more for the proxies I could use and I think snow cover days is a good metric, it is correlated to coldest month but makes Europe a bit worse than East Asia at the same temperature because East Asia is way drier in winter which results in less snow.

120 days splits Europe and Asia quite well imo. Black = no snow cover, green is up to 120 days of snow cover, yellow is 120-180 days(and the region that would largely be the new continental split) and white is more than 180 days.
1746302809604.png
 
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I would worry about using the length of snow cover as a proxy since how much snow you get and how long it lasts depends on how much precipitation you get in winter. You can get long periods where there is no snow cover but the ground is still frozen solid.

The length of the growing season, which is usually calculated based on the number of days with mean temperatures above about 5 C, is a much better and direct measure for how much you can grow in a given region.

The minimum winter temperature mostly comes into play deciding what perennial plants can grow in a given region and what the attrition will be in winter.

I found this historic (1921 to 1950 climate data) map of the length of the growing season, degree days about the growing season threshold, precipitation during the growing season and precipitation variability from here https://open.canada.ca/data/en/dataset/b1859ca6-96e4-58c0-a78b-82326d9053b8.

1746331508735.jpeg
 
I would worry about using the length of snow cover as a proxy since how much snow you get and how long it lasts depends on how much precipitation you get in winter. You can get long periods where there is no snow cover but the ground is still frozen solid.

The length of the growing season, which is usually calculated based on the number of days with mean temperatures above about 5 C, is a much better and direct measure for how much you can grow in a given region.

The minimum winter temperature mostly comes into play deciding what perennial plants can grow in a given region and what the attrition will be in winter.

I found this historic (1921 to 1950 climate data) map of the length of the growing season, degree days about the growing season threshold, precipitation during the growing season and precipitation variability from here https://open.canada.ca/data/en/dataset/b1859ca6-96e4-58c0-a78b-82326d9053b8.

View attachment 1288973
Well growing season is directly measured with GDD(it's the exact definition you used I think? Although it's measured in degree days and not number of days like in your second map and not your third one, basically it's the number of degrees above 5C multiplied with days, maxed at 25C) and it's the metric used to split continental from boreal in the maps I posted.

I think the idea was to expand the growing season divide with snow which I assume is the main issue humans would face after accounting for the cold, given that minimum monthly temperature varies very little in the continental region in Europe(most is warmer than -10C).

Would a dry mostly snowless -15C Manchurian winter really be worse than a very snowy -5C Belarusian winter?
 
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The length of the growing season is just a count of the number of days warmer than 5 C while GDD takes into account how warm those days get - a day with a mean temperature of 15 C adds 10 C to GDD and one with only 10 C adds 5 C while days with mean temperatures of 10 C and 15 C contribute equally to the length of the growing season.

The -15 C winter would kill off some species of plants that would survive the -5 C winter. Snow can also act to insulate and protect plants from harsh cold.

For an army trying to operate in winter, a colder winter would cause more attrition and drive up demand for food and fuel. Lots of snow would have more of an effect on mobility.

An issue with the Worldbuilding Pasta model is that is trying to predict the vegetation that would naturally grow in a climate, which is usually dominated by perennials. An important consideration for climate in PC is how well can you grow crops for food. Most important food crops are annuals which need to have a certain length of the growing season to complete their life cycles. Whether conifers can grow is not as important a question as can a crop of hardy grains grow.
 
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The length of the growing season is just a count of the number of days warmer than 5 C while GDD takes into account how warm those days get - a day with a mean temperature of 15 C adds 10 C to GDD and one with only 10 C adds 5 C while days with mean temperatures of 10 C and 15 C contribute equally to the length of the growing season.

The -15 C winter would kill off some species of plants that would survive the -5 C winter. Snow can also act to insulate and protect plants from harsh cold.

For an army trying to operate in winter, a colder winter would cause more attrition and drive up demand for food and fuel. Lots of snow would have more of an effect on mobility.

An issue with the Worldbuilding Pasta model is that is trying to predict the vegetation that would naturally grow in a climate, which is usually dominated by perennials. An important consideration for climate in PC is how well can you grow crops for food. Most important food crops are annuals which need to have a certain length of the growing season to complete their life cycles. Whether conifers can grow is not as important a question as can a crop of hardy grains grow.
What growing season thresholds are useful?
 
And this is why I think that sticking to a system that's entirely based on data is inferior to adjusting climate manually, based on the desired outcomes for gameplay.
Why bother with data gymnastics to get a model to spit out the result you want, when you can simply paint what you want on the game map because you're the one who is god-damned making the map?
Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot. I think it could make sense to fold it into vegetation, since vegetation has a strong correlation with soil.
My concept for including soil fertility in vegetation would be to remove farmland vegetation and then add fertile grassland and fertile woods vegetation for locations with good soil.

It's possibly easy to do with a mod, you just need to edit the vegetation definitions and then create a file in the history/global folder (or whatever it's gonna be named) which does the following in sequence: add a little bit of development to locations with farmland (as compensation), change all locations with farmland to grassland, then change specified locations to fertile grassland or fertile woods.

Of course, if the 3D map is generated before any of this runs, then you can't do it like that and you have to instead edit a lot of location definitions, which is much worse...
 
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And this is why I think that sticking to a system that's entirely based on data is inferior to adjusting climate manually, based on the desired outcomes for gameplay.
Why bother with data gymnastics to get a model to spit out the result you want, when you can simply paint what you want on the game map because you're the one who is god-damned making the map?

My concept for including soil fertility in vegetation would be to remove farmland vegetation and then add fertile grassland and fertile woods vegetation for locations with good soil.

It's possibly easy to do with a mod, you just need to edit the vegetation definitions and then create a file in the history/global folder (or whatever it's gonna be named) which does the following in sequence: add a little bit of development to locations with farmland (as compensation), change all locations with farmland to grassland, then change specified locations to fertile grassland or fertile woods.

Of course, if the 3D map is generated before any of this runs, then you can't do it like that and you have to instead edit a lot of location definitions, which is much worse...
I am really, really hopeful that the game allows you to automatically generate province terrain directly from a map (as in eu4), indeed.
 
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And this is why I think that sticking to a system that's entirely based on data is inferior to adjusting climate manually, based on the desired outcomes for gameplay.
Why bother with data gymnastics to get a model to spit out the result you want, when you can simply paint what you want on the game map because you're the one who is god-damned making the map?

My concept for including soil fertility in vegetation would be to remove farmland vegetation and then add fertile grassland and fertile woods vegetation for locations with good soil.

It's possibly easy to do with a mod, you just need to edit the vegetation definitions and then create a file in the history/global folder (or whatever it's gonna be named) which does the following in sequence: add a little bit of development to locations with farmland (as compensation), change all locations with farmland to grassland, then change specified locations to fertile grassland or fertile woods.

Of course, if the 3D map is generated before any of this runs, then you can't do it like that and you have to instead edit a lot of location definitions, which is much worse...
I'm not sure what you mean, obviously you don't have to stick 1:1 to a model based on modern data, but why is it bad to be data based?
Just because people "disagree", or rather inform each other of better proxies/climate classifications, doesn't mean using data is bad as a starting point instead of starting by manually deciding what climate each of the 20k locations has...
At the very least doing this let's you decide a good model before you start manually deciding if each location should have a different climate based on peculiar local circumstances or climatic shift since 1337 that is not represented in modern data.

Adding soil classification to vegetation makes sense, on top of fertile there is also soil with very poor water retention which would result in areas be more barren than their climate would suggest.

How would riverfed places work? Like Mesopotamia or Egypt?
 
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I'm not sure what you mean, obviously you don't have to stick 1:1 to a model based on modern data, but why is it bad to be data based?
Just because people "disagree", or rather inform each other of better proxies/climate classifications, doesn't mean using data is bad as a starting point instead of starting by manually deciding what climate each of the 20k locations has...
At the very least doing this let's you decide a good model before you start manually deciding if each location should have a different climate based on peculiar local circumstances or climatic shift since 1337 that is not represented in modern data.
What I'm saying is that it should only be used as a starting point. Sticking to the classification and trying to change the model to get an outcome you want is unnecessary when you can just directly change the climate to whatever you want it to be.
 
What I'm saying is that it should only be used as a starting point. Sticking to the classification and trying to change the model to get an outcome you want is unnecessary when you can just directly change the climate to whatever you want it to be.
I think I have to agree with zerodv here, I'm not sure if this completely makes sense. Data-based climate classification systems are valuable because they are objective. You can look at how they map out onto areas you are familiar with, and are therefore able to make predictions about any area in the world. A "make it up as you go along" system loses that kind of applicability.

Here's a specific example. In the Köppen system, southern Tunisia is hot desert, yet in real life, this region was inhabited and had cities in it. There are two ways to reconcile this, we could either conclude that the population here was entirely sustained by imports or oases, or we could adjust the definition of desert we're using to be more strict. It pretty much has to be one of those things, either there's a factor we aren't thinking about, or the categories are flawed.

In the WBP system, a new semidesert category is added for regions such as this which are dry but not so dry that they are barren. Adding in this zone allows us to make predictions about human settlement patterns in the rest of the world too, and indeed I would argue that WBP's system also predicts human habitation in Central Asia better as well.

Another example is the North China Plain, there is a region is western Hebei that is marked by many classification systems as steppe, but in real life it seems not to have been naturally vegetated as steppe, nor is it less populated than nearby regions. We could either conclude that it was sustained by irrigation, or something about our semi-arid classification is wrong, or we are using data that's inaccurate for the history we are concerned with. A "just paint that area specifically as continental" approach is tempting, but inelegant.
The length of the growing season is just a count of the number of days warmer than 5 C while GDD takes into account how warm those days get - a day with a mean temperature of 15 C adds 10 C to GDD and one with only 10 C adds 5 C while days with mean temperatures of 10 C and 15 C contribute equally to the length of the growing season.

The -15 C winter would kill off some species of plants that would survive the -5 C winter. Snow can also act to insulate and protect plants from harsh cold.

For an army trying to operate in winter, a colder winter would cause more attrition and drive up demand for food and fuel. Lots of snow would have more of an effect on mobility.

An issue with the Worldbuilding Pasta model is that is trying to predict the vegetation that would naturally grow in a climate, which is usually dominated by perennials. An important consideration for climate in PC is how well can you grow crops for food. Most important food crops are annuals which need to have a certain length of the growing season to complete their life cycles. Whether conifers can grow is not as important a question as can a crop of hardy grains grow.
Yeah, this is an excellent observation. For instance, WBP's distinction between subtropical and temperate forests, which is meant to replicate the broadleaf evergreen to deciduous transition, is based on conditions outside the growing season, and is therefore of little relevance to human agriculture.

Personally, it seems to me that we should use a classification system based mostly on conditions during the growing season, its length and temperature, which WBP did invent his own system for. However, there are still other factors we should take into account. For example, as humans are concerned, tropical diseases (which are to some extent determined by minimum temperatures) are extremely important. The same goes for winters, as I've argued.
 
I think I have to agree with zerodv here, I'm not sure if this completely makes sense. Data-based climate classification systems are valuable because they are objective. You can look at how they map out onto areas you are familiar with, and are therefore able to make predictions about any area in the world. A "make it up as you go along" system loses that kind of applicability.
There is no value in data being objective when you're designing a game. This isn't a database for scientific research, its purpose is to be balanced for gameplay. If you want some regions to have a more or less favorable climate in order to portray their historical population/development, just change their climate. You don't need to try and manipulate the underlying classifications to get the result you want, when you can just directly change it in the game.
The academic value of creating models that can better represent historical population patterns is obvious, but when it comes to developing a game, it's just a waste of time.
 
There is no value in data being objective when you're designing a game. This isn't a database for scientific research, its purpose is to be balanced for gameplay. If you want some regions to have a more or less favorable climate in order to portray their historical population/development, just change their climate. You don't need to try and manipulate the underlying classifications to get the result you want, when you can just directly change it in the game.
The academic value of creating models that can better represent historical population patterns is obvious, but when it comes to developing a game, it's just a waste of time.
The game itself is a model of the real world. It's not supposed to be perfect, but what's important is that anytime we have a question about why the game isn't replicating reality properly, we should always be able to answer that question by understanding the real world better.
 
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The game itself is a model of the real world. It's not supposed to be perfect, but what's important is that anytime we have a question about why the game isn't replicating reality properly, we should always be able to answer that question by understanding the real world better.
The game doesn't accurately portray historical reality because of the model it adheres to. I have nothing against trying to come up with a better model, but that's an academic exercise. It's much easier to fix things in the game by just... fixing them in the game.