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An Immodest Proposal

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So, to sum it up:

Halve trade values of all provinces, except the European ones (this will make European CoTs wealthier), increase the tax value of key colonial areas (like the historical spice area) significantly, so that Portugal, England and Holland can become rich by controlling these territories, instead of just trading and finally: decrease the manpower of all nations in Europe.
Perhaps also increase tax values of European provinces to stimulate war for them.

Would that do it?
 
And now Fal has summed that up, let's derail this thread. :)

Another problem is ship support. The big chunk of it is derived from number of ports, especially european ports with high taxes. However the way it's calculated is that England and Sweden get so much more support than other naval nations (even most Spains can't match them), thanks to shear number of ok european ports.

I think this is one of the largest problems facing naval competition, since it makes certain nations completely unable to compete in an environment where numbers mean a lot. I used to think that getting rid of the ship support altogether would be the best option, but I've come to realise that small support may be the way to go, for a few reasons:

1. Small navies mean cheaper wars = more likely to have wars
2. Small navies mean they are easier to rebuild = Less time needed to repair after wars, less need for multiple shipyards, easier for non-naval nations to make appearances into the scene
3. Small support limits would mean naval mnfs would become more useful
4. Small navies would make logistics for transporting armies better, as they are ridiculously easy (In some games, I would hide my entire army on my fleet, where I could strike anywhere in the world in a matter of months).

Ship support averages of 100 or so would bring a lot more strategy and competition. If a nation was really in need of a better navy, and had a good economy, going over the limit would become an effective option too. Question is, how could it be done without major modding? :confused:
 
I agree with you Bocaj,

I just think it can't be done without major modding that violates the other ideas. One could remove ports, one could lower the tax value of port provinces significantly, but that's it.
 
FAL said:
I agree with you Bocaj,

I just think it can't be done without major modding that violates the other ideas. One could remove ports, one could lower the tax value of port provinces significantly, but that's it.
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Or go beg to Johan. :) Less ports might not be such a bad idea actually, but overall it'd be a pain to try and do.
 
Bocaj said:
Ship support averages of 100 or so would bring a lot more strategy and competition. If a nation was really in need of a better navy, and had a good economy, going over the limit would become an effective option too. Question is, how could it be done without major modding? :confused:
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all of the above yeah. IIRC, ship support limits were raised in a beta patch. the older limits were much more reasonable, and you would have naval nations reaching their support ceiling, which really doesn't seem to happen now.

reinstituting the old support limits would go a long way to correcting naval imbalance in MP.
 
saskganesh said:
all of the above yeah. IIRC, ship support limits were raised in a beta patch. the older limits were much more reasonable, and you would have naval nations reaching their support ceiling, which really doesn't seem to happen now.

reinstituting the old support limits would go a long way to correcting naval imbalance in MP.
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Believe me, they still get reached. I just think that the amount you can support should mainly depend on how much you've invested into infrastucture, especialy naval mnfs. If it were to come back down, shipyards should only give +5 support instead of +10 too.
 
The idea of cutting down European ports sounds like a good idea, and a nice way of balancing out the naval powers (eg the Ottomans could have a serious cut in ports whereas Portugal would probably only need one cut at most).

Ideally, the number of colonists needed to get a colony needs to be cut down as well. It may not be very historic to have the map covered in colonies so early, but it means that naval powers can then spend their time actually fighting each other, rather than sending colonists.

A more radical idea is to do away with colonists altogether, and have several 'aborigin' countries that cover all the empty colonial areas. Instead of sending settlers, you would be fighting them, and then taking their provinces. Perhaps a half way house would be to keep the 'aborigin' countries but have most of their provinces as colonial cities. That way you still have to fight them to get their provinces, but there would still be some colonisation to do.
 
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What if instead of limiting the support, we gave everyone unlimitted support? All we would have to do is pick eight provs somewhere on the fringes of Europe and give them 1000 tax base, with a house rule that all would be off limits in wars and deals. The main question would be, would it be possible to prevent someone making any income from these provs? And I think it would indeed be possible, simply by editting control of the prov to rebels(and make sure the province isn't able to defect or revolt of course). Provs under rebel control still give the same support bonus I believe.

Most problematic would be finding the provs to actually use for this. They'd have to be fringe provs, maybe Iceland, the Azores, Malta, Rhodes, Corsica, some obscure Russian province, Gotland, and the Baleares? They'd mostly need to be islands to make them undefectable, unless you modded the revolt files.
 
King John said:
What if instead of limiting the support, we gave everyone unlimitted support? All we would have to do is pick eight provs somewhere on the fringes of Europe and give them 1000 tax base, with a house rule that all would be off limits in wars and deals. The main question would be, would it be possible to prevent someone making any income from these provs? And I think it would indeed be possible, simply by editting control of the prov to rebels(and make sure the province isn't able to defect or revolt of course). Provs under rebel control still give the same support bonus I believe.

Most problematic would be finding the provs to actually use for this. They'd have to be fringe provs, maybe Iceland, the Azores, Malta, Rhodes, Corsica, some obscure Russian province, Gotland, and the Baleares? They'd mostly need to be islands to make them undefectable, unless you modded the revolt files.
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I like this idea with respect to naval support, but would this affect support for the army as well?
 
The tax base shouldn't contribute to the economic bonus for support if the prov isn't controlled, so no.
 
I touched on the subject of large navies, I'll go over why I don't like the idea again:

-Large navies: Naval wars are way too expensive, leading to a new era of pacifism.
-Shipyards and Naval mnfs are more or less useless for ship support, which should be one of their best points.
-Large navies make transporting armies too easy
-Large navies make it much harder to get into the naval scene for non-naval nations

Also, shipyards are important, but their function is mainly to build ships. IMO naval mnfs should be more important to ship support since the capital needed to build them is quite substantial, and they are the most undervalued type of mnf.
 
FAL said:
One should not underestimate the power of the FAA when you have a high stab nation.

Were there not refineries, I would build FAA's with nations like Spain.
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Bah, it seems that whenever I start building FAA's, devastating fires occur every decade.

I think the EU2 RNG (Random Number God) just doesn't like art.

His wishes should be respected.
 
In order of importance, I think mnfs from best to worst go: Refineries, Weapons, FAAs/Goods, Naval. Even as a very naval nation I would build refineries not waste money on naval mnfs.

Eitherway, they are undervalued, and refineries are overvalued. I can always find a nation that needs refineries, or land mnfs, FAAs, or even goods, but the only nation I could think of that would benefit from naval mnfs would be OE, and how much do you see them building them anyway?
 
Damocles said:
I dont know about Fine Arts manus. Anything more then 10 manus seem to be prohibitively expensive, and each FA only lowers stab cost by 1%. So if you have a 1000d stab cost, a FA will only save you...10 ducats.
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bah, if your stabcost is only 1000d, you probably don't need more than 2 or 3 FAA. But for some country, I think they are worthwile. Ottomans of course. But also Austria benefit from it (my objective is 4-5 FAA with them). This means that Austria will often have good stab without investing much in this area.

60*4=240d invested in stab each year. It's maybe 50-60% of the usual stabcost of Austria.

Anyway, I think that FAA are very good. :)
 
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