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Announcing Clio : A new map for Victoria : Revolutions

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I'm happy to help, it's not much trouble.

Just to clarify things, the four Districts along the East Coast of the North Island are meant to have grey squares, different to the 9 black squares for the districts that should be Wellington. I was loosely basing things on the real provincial colours, and it was easier to tell the difference when I made it than it was after saving it to jpeg.

The unmarked area between what should be Christchurch province and Dunedin province is actually part of the coastal District on the Dunedin side of the blue regional boundary line, it's one of those places where the Region boundary intersects a District. I don't know the area well, but from maps it looks like it does that to follow a small mountain range that cuts the area into two water catchments. Personally I'd just use the blue regional boundaries everywhere, they make more sense on the ground.
 
Northern Ontario

Hi Guys, absolutely fantastic job so far! Sorry I'm late to the discussion but I was away from Vicky for a couple years and only discovered your much-welcomed project yesterday. Just finished reading the entire thread (in one sitting I might add) and have just now put together some info on Northern Ontario for you. Specifically the six provinces Dryden, Fort Severn, Thunder Bay, Fort Albany, Sault Sainte Marie and Sudbury. As far as credentials all I can really say is that I've been a longtime resident of Thunder Bay (born in Port Arthur; lived in Fort William) and know the area very well and have travelled by car through the region both east and west of the city (to Southern Ontario and Manitoba respectively) many times.

Anyway, on to it (in two posts):

1. Strongly suggest renaming Thunder Bay to Fort William. Paradox had it correct with Fort William. Thunder Bay didn't exist until 1970. It was created by amalgamating the former 50k towns of Fort William and Port Arthur (in 1970) into the single city of 100k called Thunder Bay. The name Thunder Bay was chosen by referendum. Of course using Port Arthur in Vicky (instead of Fort William) would be confusing with the more famous Port Arthur in the Far East.

2. I like the smaller number of provinces you've made -- this area is still sparsely populated especially outside Thunder Bay, Sault Ste. Marie, Sudbury, Kenora and Dryden. The provinces freed up are certainly better used elsewhere. However, the borders could be straightened out a bit. I don't care for small borders between provinces. By that I mean, for example, the connection between Sault Sainte Marie with Temiscaming (see bottom NE Ontario map), and the border between Temiscaming and Fort Albany. Similarly the border between Fort William and Fort Severn (NW Ontario top map).

To illustrate: if through some war the U.S. obtained Dryden and France obtained Fort Albany with Gr. Britain retaining Fort William and Fort Severn then the little land connection between Fort William and Fort Severn would look artificial. Similarly the connection between Sault Sainte Marie and Temiscaming or between Temiscaming and Fort Albany would also look unnecessarily "wimpy" given possible peace treaty outcomes.

This is why I smoothed out some bulges and made the connections between certain provinces more substantial. Fort William grows a bit around Lake Nipigon as that basin drains into Lake Superior. Logs cut from the Lake Nipigon basin end up in Fort William (Nipigon river flows south). Grow Fort Severn eastward to widen the border with Fort William. Increase Sault Sainte Marie westwards since these lands are much closer to Sault Ste. Marie urban centre than they are to current Thunder Bay urban centre. Also a few changes on both sides of Quebec/Ontario border to make Temiscaming's borders with Sault Sainte Marie and Fort Albany more substantial.

Frankly I feel we can take liberty with these borders in this way since we are departing from the present-day Districts already.

NWOntario.jpg


NEOntario.jpg
 
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Northern Ontario (continued)

3. Resources. Frankly, I don't know how Paradox came up with cattle for some of the provinces. Or the fishing up north. Northern Ontario lies within the precambrian Canadian Shield geologic region. Very little agriculture: some dairy farms immediately around the larger urban centers; subsistence hunting and fishing by natives everywhere else -- that's about it. Definitely nothing that would show up on a WM. Forest products and mining exclusively I should say. Although there is also gold here, to try to work in a gold resource would also ahistorically cause pops to flood here. So rightly no gold.

Dryden, Fort Severn, Fort William, Fort Albany and Sault Sainte Marie should all be timber provinces. Vicky/Ricky has Fish for the provinces bordering Hudson/James Bay. Again, there is only subsistance activity in these two provinces. If any economically substantial activity were to take place up there it would have to be timber.

Now a big ommission is that Sudbury DEFINITELY should be an iron resource. 30% of the world's nickel (not to mention other minerals) comes out of there. Analogous to Chilean copper mines being iron resource provinces. Just a couple of quotes from Wikipedia articles (links at end of my post): "As a result of these metal deposits, the Greater Sudbury area is one of the world's major mining communities. The region is one of the world's largest suppliers of nickel and copper ores." And: "The (Canadian) Shield is one of the world's richest areas in terms of mineral ores. It is filled with substantial deposits of nickel, gold, silver, and copper. Throughout the Shield there are many mining towns extracting these minerals. The largest, and one of the best known, is Sudbury, Ontario."

Besides correcting a big ommission it would also allow a Canadian player to support the steel industry of Sault Ste Marie and Hamilton (ie. steel industry for the state of Ontario) that exists even up to today. One could argue to make both Sault Sainte Marie and Sudbury iron provinces to better balance the logging/mining duality in the six provinces but certainly Sudbury as a minimum should be one.

A bit OT but a strong case could be made to make Fort William an iron resource for the HOI period. During WWII the Steep Rock Lake mine was developed and eventually it produced 78 million tonnes of iron ore over 35 years (1943 to 1979). It was "the largest undeveloped and the richest deposit of hematite iron ore on the North American continent" and "the mining project at the time was the largest mega project undertaken in Canada". (Link below). Ie: Canada's Manhattan Project! The ore was railed to a terminal in Fort William for shipment to Sault Ste. Marie and other steel mills.

I only record this here in case Clio gets "future ported" to HOI at some point. Resources don't appear on HOI maps -- only in the ledger panels on the upper-left on the HOI interface. Conversely, if Clio is "pre ported" to earlier period then one has to consider the fur industry (ie. the Northwest and Hudson Bay Company, etc) instead.

Anyway, very, very strongly suggest Sudbury getting an Iron. It would be criminal to continue keeping it as a cattle resource. Sudbury to Canadians is synonymous with mining and nickel (just like Chilean copper mines become iron in Vicky/Ricky. The situation is the same for Sudbury).

4. Terrain. The terrain should be Broken/Forest for Dryden, Fort William, Sault Sainte Marie and Sudbury. Fort Severn and Fort Albany should be Marshes/Forest. The Canadian Shield has some of the most formidable terrain in Canada -- an unremitting expanse of rock outcroppings, dense forest, lakes and bogs. The TransCanada highway even today is still a two-way highway through this region. The railways I believe are also still single tracked. If they've been doubled then it would have been a relatively recent development.

5. Pops. I don't know enough about the populations in 1836. My own gut feeling is it should be even lower than what Vicky/Ricky has.

To sum up the change suggestions: rename Thunder Bay to Fort William; straighten/widen the borders; iron for Sudbury timber for the rest (maybe iron for Sault Sainte Marie as well); broken/forest terrain for four and marshes/forests for the two Hudson/James Bay provinces. Finally, smaller/fewer pops throughout.

Regards,

Puddler

Some links:

General:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ontario
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunder_Bay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sault_Ste._Marie,_Ontario
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryden,_Ontario
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_Bay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Severn,_Ontario
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Albany_67,_Ontario

Historical interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_William,_Ontario
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur,_Ontario

Regarding resources/terrain:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_Basin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Shield

Regarding Steep Rock Lake iron (OT):
http://www.v-g-s.ca/PastMonthly/03_01_22Talk.html
 
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Palisadoes said:
Plus straight borders look rubbish.
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Yeah, agreed. Finalized borders would get some local indentations and such to give it "texture". I may even fix those sketches of mine if I get some time. Perhaps locate a river or two to use as boundaries.
 
Fair enough.
 
Hello. First of all, congratulations on the rather excellent looking map. I'm quite excited to see a more geographically correct Patagonia.

Secondly, could I ask how close you are to a finished product? I ask because our CK to HoI grand conversion game (ARoW, see here for the Paradox AAR thread) is about 6 to 8 weeks from starting our Victoria leg, and we're considering using this map. King of Men is writing a converter to do this for us. So I'm particularly interested to know if you have assigned ids to all the land provinces, and if it would be possible to get a list of province names & ids to go with your map so we could get the EU3->Clio province mappings done.

Thanks for all the hard work!

fasquardon
 
fasquardon said:
Hello. First of all, congratulations on the rather excellent looking map. I'm quite excited to see a more geographically correct Patagonia.

Secondly, could I ask how close you are to a finished product? I ask because our CK to HoI grand conversion game (ARoW, see here for the Paradox AAR thread) is about 6 to 8 weeks from starting our Victoria leg, and we're considering using this map. King of Men is writing a converter to do this for us. So I'm particularly interested to know if you have assigned ids to all the land provinces, and if it would be possible to get a list of province names & ids to go with your map so we could get the EU3->Clio province mappings done.

Thanks for all the hard work!

fasquardon
Click to expand...

Will not be ready in that time frame for a public release. Actually have hit some technical issues that I need to work out that is causing more delay than I expected.

And I've not completely finalized the province ID list, so it's not quite ready either.
 
OHgamer said:
Will not be ready in that time frame for a public release. Actually have hit some technical issues that I need to work out that is causing more delay than I expected.

And I've not completely finalized the province ID list, so it's not quite ready either.
Click to expand...

Sad to hear that... Mind if I ask what the technical hitch is?

If the delay is in life sustainability, pop assignment or RGOs, we might be able to make our converter generate that...

fasquardon
 
Western Java

Hi.
While looking at Indonesia, I noticed there aren't any separate province to represent the Sultanate of Banten, which also have its own culture - Bantanese. Would it be possible to add this province? Capital of the province today is Serang. It should be west of the red line on the image.

 
GanguGengu said:
Dead mod is dead.
Click to expand...

The reports of Clio's death have been greatly exaggerated.

I am 100% certain this mod is alive, unless they ran into a technical wall which can't be overcome. It is inconceivable to us mere mortals how busy OH is, just give it time.
 
No this mod project is not dead.

However, right at the moment I have some other projects that I need to focus direct attention upon, which means this is at the moment on the back burner, more due to time constraints in my real life to work on graphical stuff (I've overcome the bottleneck, just haven't had much time to progress further, due to work as well as things like VIP, the source code project, as well as some beta work for Paradox).

If only this map was based on an EU3 engine, not the $*%@$ing limited EU2-era one! Progress would be much faster.
 
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