Any hope for a GOG release?

[Sirbab]

This means that anyone wanting something else than Windows and Steam should not buy the game on those (eg to see if it runs on Proton). If they buy it, they are no longer potential new players, and thus PDX has less incentive to do other platforms.

Not sure though how PDX knows how many potential players there are on other platforms? By counting forum rants?

There is probably anonymous data collection from game client or launcher.

 

[honkajoki]

There is probably anonymous data collection from game client or launcher.

Meaning what? Steam, Gog, etc give PDX data on players of other gsgs? If someone hasn't bought EU5 then PDX can get no data on that person from EU5 launcher. Sure, they can get some data from the launcher on who's playing EU4 and other PDX games, but does that apply to Gog or only to Steam?

 

[Sirbab]

Meaning what? Steam, Gog, etc give PDX data on players of other gsgs? If someone hasn't bought EU5 then PDX can get no data on that person from EU5 launcher. Sure, they can get some data from the launcher on who's playing EU4 and other PDX games, but does that apply to Gog or only to Steam?

I'm not sure, sorry, but there probably is some fingerprinting depending on which. If not this, then there probably are focus groups/surveys they rely on. I trust pdx is able to do basic customer identification.

 

[hannibal_pjv]

Most likely they compare how many people play game X in gog, in Steam and In Epic store

And then estimate how many people would play EU5 using the same prosents with some marging of error,
So if Hoi2 is bough played by 10% of people and 90% of hoi2 players are on steam… then HOI5 would also most likely be 10% in gog and 90% in steam plus minus 5% for one direction or another…
Is that 5 to 15% worth of second platform is based on total sale numbers.

I like gog and I have many games in there. But I also have games in steam and Epyc game store and Apple store and so on…
I like to have a choise! A choise creates competiton and I like competiton that saves me money… but if that choise increase the needed amounth of work and so increase the price more than the competiton among platforms would reduce the price… then it is not usefull anymore! So Paradox has to consider this game to game bases! Maybe EU4 will go to gog when there is not any more updates, aka when EU4 is at the end of line. Because there will be less expensies to have it available in several platforms..
And maybe EU5 will be in gog at 2050 or 2060 when EU5 development stops….

 

[Kovax]

So, at least there's a fair chance that I'll be able to play the game in another 3-10 years. The initial Steam release will make the fastest return on investment and cover the majority of potential sales. Once that market segment has been mostly tapped out, then it comes down to a question of whether it's better to open it up to another distributor (GOG, etc.) or platform (Mac, Linux, consoles) or to put all of the resources into the next new game. It is what it is, I may not like Paradox's reasoning, but I understand it and can accept it.

 

[Cratty]

We do have other GSGs on GOG, but without sharing specific numbers, I can say that the number of players using it on a monthly basis is very very small compared to Steam. I understand that the studio wants to focus on getting the game out there, make sure it is doing great, before evaluating adding more layers in the operation. And from a business point of view, this is not a priority either.

First off, completely understand prioritizing a Steam release. As much as some people may want a gog release at launch (including myself), having a great release on your main platform is probably a better investment (Might even build anticipation for EU5 releasing on other platforms)
I am curious about the use monthly users though. Is this talking about monthly buyers or monthly players? It sounds like monthly players, which I question if your able to get accurate data on gog, I'd think many would use it without sending data back. And monthly buyers seems more relevant, but I question why total buyers wouldn't be more important. Sure trends change and people might have lost interest in EU4 since they bought it, but monthly buyers is also inaccurate since the amount of things they can buy goes down every month.

 

[Kyoumen]

I understand that is important to you, but as a company/studio, we have to prioritize. For launch, there is no way we will have additional platforms, as Tinto wants to focus on having a solid release on Steam and it is where the huge majority of our players are and all the features are well know and available to be integrated with the game.

To go on GOG, or any other platform, we need to be in a position where we see the potential to have more players experiencing our games, while not adding an increased burden in our operation. Mind you, we do not release and forget a new game. We plan to support it for 5, 10 years, with free patches and DLCs. And every single platform we add, it is another thing to make sure we integrate it correctly with their features, check for bugs, do all the release steps every single time.

We do have other GSGs on GOG, but without sharing specific numbers, I can say that the number of players using it on a monthly basis is very very small compared to Steam. I understand that the studio wants to focus on getting the game out there, make sure it is doing great, before evaluating adding more layers in the operation. And from a business point of view, this is not a priority either.

All that I said here is the same rationale we use for other things like languages, MAC/Linux conversations, console, etc. Every single decision needs to account for years of support, additional point of failures and additional steps on every single thing we do, and then we compare to what is the expected return of that investment (both in numbers, but also in opportunity costs).

So yeah, I would never say "we are never releasing on other platforms", but I don't want to do any promises at this point. Let's get this game out, make sure it is great and then we see what the future has for us.

In fairness, the numbers would be larger if those games had not been released on GOG years after they had been released on Steam, thus making it something bought only by people who discovered them very late or who never use Steam at all.

How much larger would depend on several factors, of course, but at the very least that's where I'd have them if I hadn't already bought the games years before they saw a GOG release. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy given those versions of the game came late and with little promotion, though of course the majority would be on Steam regardless.

 

[Testerian2]

In fairness, the numbers would be larger if those games had not been released on GOG years after they had been released on Steam, thus making it something bought only by people who discovered them very late or who never use Steam at all.

How much larger would depend on several factors, of course, but at the very least that's where I'd have them if I hadn't already bought the games years before they saw a GOG release. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy given those versions of the game came late and with little promotion, though of course the majority would be on Steam regardless.

To give an example, I was playing PDX games on GamersGate until PDX forced me to play them on Steam. I even had to buy some of them again after I bought a new machine because GG couldn't get Steam keys for me from PDX.

My big question is, will Steam just be a distribution method like for EU4, where you could just as easily start the game from the exe file, or will they go full DRM, denying players offline play? Because if so, I may just wait another year or two for the GoG release.

 

[constablegeneral]

I understand that is important to you, but as a company/studio, we have to prioritize. For launch, there is no way we will have additional platforms, as Tinto wants to focus on having a solid release on Steam and it is where the huge majority of our players are and all the features are well know and available to be integrated with the game.

To go on GOG, or any other platform, we need to be in a position where we see the potential to have more players experiencing our games, while not adding an increased burden in our operation. Mind you, we do not release and forget a new game. We plan to support it for 5, 10 years, with free patches and DLCs. And every single platform we add, it is another thing to make sure we integrate it correctly with their features, check for bugs, do all the release steps every single time.

We do have other GSGs on GOG, but without sharing specific numbers, I can say that the number of players using it on a monthly basis is very very small compared to Steam. I understand that the studio wants to focus on getting the game out there, make sure it is doing great, before evaluating adding more layers in the operation. And from a business point of view, this is not a priority either.

All that I said here is the same rationale we use for other things like languages, MAC/Linux conversations, console, etc. Every single decision needs to account for years of support, additional point of failures and additional steps on every single thing we do, and then we compare to what is the expected return of that investment (both in numbers, but also in opportunity costs).

So yeah, I would never say "we are never releasing on other platforms", but I don't want to do any promises at this point. Let's get this game out, make sure it is great and then we see what the future has for us.

I understand that you have the launch and the business side, as well as the technical support feasibility, to look out for. I'm only suggesting that you consider GOG or other non DRM releases. While GOG and other non DRM side of the gaming industry are still not as established as Steam, they're growing, and recent releases of games like Baldur's Gate 3 and Cyberpunk, as well as those released by smaller studios such as Age of Wonders 4, Pathfinder etc, show that they're growing as a platform, especially for deep Single Player games like EU5, which might just well be the most anticipated Strategy Single player game ever. While still in the nascent stages, the Non-DRM movement is definitely growing as more customers are starting to consider their access to their purchases, as well as the game conservation POV. I repeat that Gabe will not stay at Steam forever, he will retire sooner than later considering his age, and for both the customers and game creators, that's not going to be a good news considering how Companies behave, something that no one can predict.

Now that's the end of my pitch, for now I'll just suggest a few things that may be considered right now;

1. If there is only going to be a Steam release for at least the first few years, then at least please provide keys with the Steam purchase of the Game and the DLCs so that players who wish to migrate to the GOG or other non DLC version may be able to do so.

2. If that is not an option, please try to give us a fixed timeline as to when we can expect a non DRM release.

3. Finally, and this is a sort of desperate and me grasping at straws, so a bit crazy, but is it possible for you to explore the option of crowdfunding a Non DRM release, or a GOG one? Maybe just charge more for the Pre-Order of Non DRM release. There can be plenty of such methods, if you don' get a satisfactory response and cannot reach the set goal, then you may scrap it. I mean we've had entire games being made and released on crowdfunding these days.

At the end of the day, these are all just suggestions.

 

[constablegeneral]

In fairness, the numbers would be larger if those games had not been released on GOG years after they had been released on Steam, thus making it something bought only by people who discovered them very late or who never use Steam at all.

How much larger would depend on several factors, of course, but at the very least that's where I'd have them if I hadn't already bought the games years before they saw a GOG release. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy given those versions of the game came late and with little promotion, though of course the majority would be on Steam regardless.

I concur, for most there is no point in buying EU4 on GOG, especially considering how essential the DLCs are for the experience. No one will buy the game and all the DLCs again for a second time, unless allowed to do a free migration to the GOG version, and even then, most people have already created or are part of the communities around the game on Steam, you cannot expect the same to happen on GOG or any other platform after re-releasing the game years after the Steam launch. Therefore releases on GOG beyond a year or so will never feature prominently, the customers may wait for a year at most if they're assured that a Non Steam release will happen, but if they're not sure, and a Non Steam release is years later, then all will buy the Steam version and be done with it.

 

[Nyrael]

This means that anyone wanting something else than Windows and Steam should not buy the game on those (eg to see if it runs on Proton). If they buy it, they are no longer potential new players, and thus PDX has less incentive to do other platforms.

Not sure though how PDX knows how many potential players there are on other platforms? By counting forum rants?

Probably by percentages. They know how many people play their other games on GOG. If around 5% of CK2 players are on GOG, around 5% players will buy EU5 on GOG.
So when is it worth supporting another platform? If EU5 is so successful that this 5% would be a large number of players. So the more successful EU5 is and the more monthly players it has, the more likely it is that they will support another platform. If EU5's success is so-so, adding another platform might be seen as not worth the operating costs.

 

[Nyrael]

While GOG and other non DRM side of the gaming industry are still not as established as Steam, they're growing, and recent releases of games like Baldur's Gate 3 and Cyberpunk, as well as those released by smaller studios such as Age of Wonders 4, Pathfinder etc, show that they're growing as a platform, especially for deep Single Player games like EU5, which might just well be the most anticipated Strategy Single player game ever.

They already had GOG releases and have data on how much those were worth to them, so they know better than anyone how much it would be profitable for them in EU5. Telling them how worth it would be is silly, as they have more data than any of us.
The other issue is that you mentioned big hits in your list. But the problem is that blockbusters are worth putting on GOG, because the number of players will make it worth. 5% of a few thousand players and 5% of several million players are not worth the same. Additionally, EU5 will be a game that will be updated frequently with patches and DLCs, so that increases the operational costs - putting a finished game that will less frequently get updates isn't as costly.

It is disappointing that there will be no GOG releases, but less because of Paradox's decision and more that there's not enoguh players to make it worth it.

 

[constablegeneral]

They already had GOG releases and have data on how much those were worth to them, so they know better than anyone how much it would be profitable for them in EU5. Telling them how worth it would be is silly, as they have more data than any of us.
The other issue is that you mentioned big hits in your list. But the problem is that blockbusters are worth putting on GOG, because the number of players will make it worth. 5% of a few thousand players and 5% of several million players are not worth the same. Additionally, EU5 will be a game that will be updated frequently with patches and DLCs, so that increases the operational costs - putting a finished game that will less frequently get updates isn't as costly.

It is disappointing that there will be no GOG releases, but less because of Paradox's decision and more that there's not enoguh players to make it worth it.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, EU4 and other Paradox games were released much later on GOG, after most of target customers had already bought the games and their DLCs on Steam, and had already formed communities there. It is merely being pointed out that in such a case, perhaps the underwhelming response on GOG doesn't tell the full story about the overall growth of the Non DRM side.

Also, if you notice, I mentioned all the releases that had simultaneous or almost simultaneous releases on both Steam and GOG. The point was to show that they may expect greater response if the GOG release isn't delayed for years after the Steam release.

 

[Kovax]

Another point is that hours played offline are not properly tracked by GOG. I've got a few thousand hours into several games in GOG, including HOI3 and EU3, yet the GOG launcher shows less than 10 hours for them.

On the one hand, if the initial release were on both Steam and GOG, we would almost certainly see a larger percentage of sales on GOG than we did for other games where the GOG release was years later. On the other hand, many who would purchase it on GOG would buy it on Steam anyway if it weren't released on GOG. The few who will not purchase it on Steam for whatever reason, but who will buy it on GOG (such as myself), may or may not be a sufficiently large segment to justify the expense; only Paradox can decide that. All I can do is hope.

 

[Voigt]

I am a bit confused. As far as I know all Paradox GSGs are DRM-free on Steam.
If DRM-freeness is all you care about, you cam simply buy on Steam, download there, and start the game trough the .exe without Steam running. Works for Victoria 3 as an recent example.
So in that aspect Steam and GoG are the same for Paradox Games.

 

[constablegeneral]

I am a bit confused. As far as I know all Paradox GSGs are DRM-free on Steam.
If DRM-freeness is all you care about, you cam simply buy on Steam, download there, and start the game trough the .exe without Steam running. Works for Victoria 3 as an recent example.
So in that aspect Steam and GoG are the same for Paradox Games.

We've discussed that. Apparently some games allow, but some have issues with DLC. If you're a weekly gamer rather than daily, you still open steam. Another thing is that say if I played on Friday night, I can play on offline mode of Steam on Saturday and Sunday, but then having not played for a week due to work, if I open again on Friday night or Saturday, Steam will again require me to online.

 

[constablegeneral]

Another point is that hours played offline are not properly tracked by GOG. I've got a few thousand hours into several games in GOG, including HOI3 and EU3, yet the GOG launcher shows less than 10 hours for them.

On the one hand, if the initial release were on both Steam and GOG, we would almost certainly see a larger percentage of sales on GOG than we did for other games where the GOG release was years later. On the other hand, many who would purchase it on GOG would buy it on Steam anyway if it weren't released on GOG. The few who will not purchase it on Steam for whatever reason, but who will buy it on GOG (such as myself), may or may not be a sufficiently large segment to justify the expense; only Paradox can decide that. All I can do is hope.

I don't even use GOG Galaxy, I just straight up download the installers for games and patches and install them at my leisure. So it is very difficult to track gaming hourse unless you're playing online multiplayer.

 

[Kovax]

Some games do require the GOG Galaxy launcher, but they still don't track hours, possibly unless you're connected online while you play them.

 

[Kyoumen]

I am a bit confused. As far as I know all Paradox GSGs are DRM-free on Steam.
If DRM-freeness is all you care about, you cam simply buy on Steam, download there, and start the game trough the .exe without Steam running. Works for Victoria 3 as an recent example.
So in that aspect Steam and GoG are the same for Paradox Games.

That used to be the case, but in recent years Paradox games tend to get wonky and do things like not recognise the DLC you have when you do that.

(There was also the annoying thing that they were sending data to Paradox without asking permission and with no way to stop it from doing so unless you specifically blacklisted it in your firewall, but that's a somewhat separate issue.)