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Not to be rude, but who buys a PC game outside of Steam? Microsoft Store versions of games almost always suck about modding and stuff. I can understand MacOS guys (people have day jobs), Linux guys (people have CompSci degrees) and even people who want to play GSG's on console (masochism is a thing), but I can't quite picture someone who buys games from GOG or something
 
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Not to be rude, but who buys a PC game outside of Steam? Microsoft Store versions of games almost always suck about modding and stuff. I can understand MacOS guys (people have day jobs), Linux guys (people have CompSci degrees) and even people who want to play GSG's on console (masochism is a thing), but I can't quite picture someone who buys games from GOG or something
I buy other than from Steam if I can manage it, because a) I don't like DRM, b) I don't like monopolies, and c) I don't like Steam.

Unfortunately there's lots of times that's the only option, but it's a little less bad now than it was a few years ago.

I'm pretty leery about buying a Paradox game elsewhere given I got the rug yanked out from under me TWICE with Crusader Kings II and III, however, which led to me no longer having functional or updated copies of those games that I paid for. Most companies you can expect to keep supporting a game they launch on another service as long as they support the Steam version.
 
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Not to be rude, but who buys a PC game outside of Steam? Microsoft Store versions of games almost always suck about modding and stuff. I can understand MacOS guys (people have day jobs), Linux guys (people have CompSci degrees) and even people who want to play GSG's on console (masochism is a thing), but I can't quite picture someone who buys games from GOG or something
Looking at many of the reviews and comments on GOG about various games, there is a strong sense of relief and thankfulness that someone else besides Steam offers those games. There are MANY gamers who dislike or even hate Steam and its policies, so having an alternative is frequently viewed as a major positive. Personally, I was burned once by Steam, lost everything with no recourse or appeal possible, and will never deal with them again.

Who buys a PC game outside of Steam? There's a long list of them on GOG, while Steam makes deals with many publishers to hide or delete any complaints against themselves. I was once threatened with banning from another forum for posting a complaint against Steam, and not surprisingly, took offense to that. Another forum moved all of the posts critical of Steam to an obscure and misleadingly named thread out of the main parts of the forum, effectively silencing them. If nobody sees the complaints, it seems as if there are no problems. Some of us know otherwise.
 
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Not to be rude, but who buys a PC game outside of Steam? Microsoft Store versions of games almost always suck about modding and stuff. I can understand MacOS guys (people have day jobs), Linux guys (people have CompSci degrees) and even people who want to play GSG's on console (masochism is a thing), but I can't quite picture someone who buys games from GOG or something.
Why limit yourself to a single store?

Maybe it’s cheaper at another store that day, maybe you want the devs to get the biggest possible cut, maybe you’re in an anti-DRM mood, maybe the version at one store has some advantage you care about for that game, maybe you don’t care about the disadvantage for some game, maybe you have wallet funds or a gift card for some store.

There are arguments for or against any of the major storefronts, each of them something you may or may not care about depending on your principles and situation and the game involved.

And I understand the benefits of always buying from one store - it’s convenient and easy - but it’s not weird for someone to shop around or to have different priorities. And even the one store argument doesn’t necessarily mean Steam - if someone comes into general PC gaming from Xbox, or from Minecraft, or from Fortnite, their “one store” would have a different starting place.
 
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I buy other than from Steam if I can manage it, because a) I don't like DRM, b) I don't like monopolies, and c) I don't like Steam.

Unfortunately there's lots of times that's the only option, but it's a little less bad now than it was a few years ago.

I'm pretty leery about buying a Paradox game elsewhere given I got the rug yanked out from under me TWICE with Crusader Kings II and III, however, which led to me no longer having functional or updated copies of those games that I paid for. Most companies you can expect to keep supporting a game they launch on another service as long as they support the Steam version.

It is fairly functional alternative for buying games no longer in active development, if they are not heavily dependent on Steam workshop for mod distribution.

Looking at many of the reviews and comments on GOG about various games, there is a strong sense of relief and thankfulness that someone else besides Steam offers those games. There are MANY gamers who dislike or even hate Steam and its policies, so having an alternative is frequently viewed as a major positive. Personally, I was burned once by Steam, lost everything with no recourse or appeal possible, and will never deal with them again.

Who buys a PC game outside of Steam? There's a long list of them on GOG, while Steam makes deals with many publishers to hide or delete any complaints against themselves. I was once threatened with banning from another forum for posting a complaint against Steam, and not surprisingly, took offense to that. Another forum moved all of the posts critical of Steam to an obscure and misleadingly named thread out of the main parts of the forum, effectively silencing them. If nobody sees the complaints, it seems as if there are no problems. Some of us know otherwise.

Why limit yourself to a single store?

Maybe it’s cheaper at another store that day, maybe you want the devs to get the biggest possible cut, maybe you’re in an anti-DRM mood, maybe the version at one store has some advantage you care about for that game, maybe you don’t care about the disadvantage for some game, maybe you have wallet funds or a gift card for some store.

There are arguments for or against any of the major storefronts, each of them something you may or may not care about depending on your principles and situation and the game involved.

And I understand the benefits of always buying from one store - it’s convenient and easy - but it’s not weird for someone to shop around or to have different priorities. And even the one store argument doesn’t necessarily mean Steam - if someone comes into general PC gaming from Xbox, or from Minecraft, or from Fortnite, their “one store” would have a different starting place.
Thank you all for the insight. I have been buying games from Steam since I was 10 years old, and when a game isn't on Steam I usually don't bother buying it. It's just too convenient to have all your saves, mods, friends and games in one app, transportable easily from computer to computer. Support has always satisfied me, it used to be dirt cheap here in Turkey and I like the UX aspect of it too. Plus I'm too much of a normie/zoomer to know what a DRM is.
 
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Thank you all for the insight. I have been buying games from Steam since I was 10 years old, and when a game isn't on Steam I usually don't bother buying it. It's just too convenient to have all your saves, mods, friends and games in one app, transportable easily from computer to computer. Support has always satisfied me, it used to be dirt cheap here in Turkey and I like the UX aspect of it too. Plus I'm too much of a normie/zoomer to know what a DRM is.
It stands for Digital Rights Management. Essentially it's a form of copy protection to keep you from pirating games (and sometimes other things companies don't like, like modding or changing it yourself). This can take a lot of forms and for instance back in the 80s was often "you need to access a specific page in the manual to answer a question in the game or it stops working", but in this case I'm talking about DRM software.

Back in the day you generally bought a game and for all intents and purposes owned it. The source code was encrypted but otherwise you owned and nobody could take that away. DRM changes that, and generally prevents things that are unequivocally legal and fair use, such as making backup copies for yourself. Some are more intrusive than others, and it was VERY unpopular with a lot of people back in the day. Notably, in many places it is illegal to circumvent it or even discuss circumventing it; both the US (the infamous DMCA) and EU have laws enforcing this. Some DRM operated in ways, often rootkits, that would unintentionally create security issues for computers that had them installed or were functionally all but impossible to uninstall even if the software they came with was no longer on the computer. Sony, for instance, got in deep shit for force-installing DRM on CDs in 2005 that caused a security vulnerability on computers and had to create a tool to remove it as well as exchange all the CDs for ones without the DRM. Amazon has remotely and without warning deleted books people had purchased off Kindles because DRM lets them do shit like that (hilariously, this included 1984 at one point).

Steam is DRM. That is one of its primary purposes. As an example to illustrate this, my wife and I both own games on Steam, and while we have two accounts, there are games we both play that is on the primary account. It is impossible for us to play two different games at the same time on that account unless one of us completely disconnects the computer Steam is using from the internet (you could also put it in offline mode but Steam can randomly turn itself back on sometimes without asking when you do that). If you accidentally let both of them access the internet at the same time it will instantly kick the first person out of their game without so much as a warning. Supposedly the new Steam Family solves that issue, but that went into beta last year, which is an awfully long time to not play two different games we legitimately paid for in the same house, something you didn't ever have to worry about prior to Steam. Steam also does a variety of things I find very annoying like the aforementioned turning itself on/putting itself online when I did not ask it to and in fact told it not to, updating games even when it's been set not to do so, or refusing to play any game that hasn't been updated unless you again disconnect it from the internet so it can't find out there is an update (I live in rural Australia and have at times in the last decade and a bit had to make do with extremely limited internet to the tune of about 1gb a month, and you imagine how much I loved Steam turning itself on and helpfully trying to autoupdate things when it was set not to). Various features of games won't work right if you're not in their cloud mode (that's more bandwidth used, as well as taking away control of your own files), notably including the Workshop, and so on and so forth. Paradox games will in most cases actually work without launching Steam first (most games won't), but nowadays it'll usually eff up the DLC and of course there's no non-Steam multiplayer.

And if the Steam servers ever die, or if Steam removes a game and chooses not to let you continue to download it, you're not getting it back again (and the stuff Steam provides will never work again, like multiplayer, unless you can mod the game to jury-rig a new multiplayer system). That game isn't yours. You're dependent on them to keep providing it for you. All those nice features people like about Steam? They're the spoonful of sugar that finally got people to swallow DRM and like it when it was almost universally hated in the naughts like, hmm, EA is now.

GOG has none of that. You buy a game from GOG, you download it once, it's yours. You don't need to connect to the internet every time you use it, you're not forced to download anything to play it, and you can back it up on a separate hard drive and that copy will work if your first hard drive dies for whatever reasons. It's DRM-free. It belongs to you, in the same sense that video games always did in the past. That's pretty much one of it's main selling points. They've even offered free DRM-free downloads of some games (like Masters of Orion) where if you bought the actual boxed copy of the game you could no longer use it because the DRM systems of those games was defunct and would no longer validate.

itch.io runs on a similar philosophy and a lot of indie games are published through there, so that's another place I buy from when I can.
 
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Thank you all for the insight. I have been buying games from Steam since I was 10 years old, and when a game isn't on Steam I usually don't bother buying it. It's just too convenient to have all your saves, mods, friends and games in one app, transportable easily from computer to computer. Support has always satisfied me, it used to be dirt cheap here in Turkey and I like the UX aspect of it too. Plus I'm too much of a normie/zoomer to know what a DRM is.
I don’t have anything against Steam, unlike some people in this thread, but while Steam was a leader in a lot of those features, these days things like cloud saves and launchers for downloading from are pretty standard and I wouldn’t say any store has much advantage over any others in terms of ease of migrating computers. The main “killer feature” of Steam these days is the Workshop; aside from that it’s mainly just convenience of already having lots of games there and your friends there, etc. Plus having arguably the best UX and secondary functionality in the launcher.

But it also depends on what you do - do you use Steam chat, do you have 100 people on your friends list or 10, do you use the Steam invite system three times a month or three times a day, do you enjoy collecting things and decorating your profile or do you ignore it, etc. The more enmeshed you are in the ecosystem the more reason there is to stay in that ecosystem. For some people Steam is just a games library and a some friends they actually know IRL or on other platforms, and for us it’s a lot easier to hop around between stores. And other people are already enmeshed in a different ecosystem, like someone migrating from or also using Xbox consoles or heavily using Gamepass.

And of course the biggest obstacle is buying the first game - I have a GOG account and the GOG launcher installed and my debit card stored in GOG just like with Steam, so for me it’s equally as easy to open GOG and buy and install a game there as it is to open Steam and buy and install a game there (well… like 95% as easy, because Steam’s interface is still better and snappier). But for someone who doesn’t have a GOG account and doesn’t have the GOG launcher installed, it’s a much bigger deal to go through all the first-time stuff. Your view is “it’d be such a big hassle to go make an account and download the launcher and setup everything,” my view is “the icons are right next to each other in the Start menu.”
 
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As for the Crusader Kings 3 launcher not requiring logging into steam (offline or online), can anybody else confirm it? If such a thing is implemented in EU5 as well, it would be a huge relief for me indeed.
I don't have CK3 but can confirm for EU4 and Vic3. You just have to find the dowser application to open the launcher (it was a bit hidden in Vic3's case). It seems like they removed the application in Vic3 though so now you have to open it through the launcher.
 
Sorry for the hiatus, but it's really interesting how so many people, customers no less, are not wanitng a DRM free experience. I get that Steam is great and convenient, but here is the thing, GOG is convenient as well, and lets you run the game with all the DLCS without having to go through internet or any third party launch. GOG even lets you access the installers of the game, so you can even uninstall and reinstall the game, never having to worry about reauthentication as far as single player is concerned after having purchased your game. You only need a single purchase to really have access to your game at all times.

I get that Steam is great, but let's be sure of one thing, Gabe is not going to be at the helm forever, in fact he might step down sooner than later considering his age. Would you really want your game access to depend on a company? Look at Ubisoft, they have removed games from the people's game libraries!

Even Steam forced people to change their operating system, otherwise players could not access their games in their own steam library. Why depend on Third Party Launchers for whenever you want to access your own purchases?

At least as consumers, insist for having an option, those who want to stick with Steam may very well do so, but let people who don't want Steam or Third Party Launcher or DRM, also have an option. like GOG.
 
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Sorry for the hiatus, but it's really interesting how so many people, customers no less, are not wanitng a DRM free experience.

They probably not been burned by DRM yet. When they suddenly lose their music or games because of some change of law or policy or arbitrary decision, they will learn.
 
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At the moment we are aiming only at having steam as a storefront and Windows as OS. Other OSs, Storefronts (GoG, EGS, Microsoft Store, etc) and console ports are options that we will definitely explore after release, but as Johan said, our resources are locked at the moment to guarantee a good release on Steam.


Thank you. Will we be able to launch the game using an exe file like EU4, or only through the Steam interface?
 
They probably not been burned by DRM yet. When they suddenly lose their music or games because of some change of law or policy or arbitrary decision, they will learn.
When you attempt to log on and find that your account was hacked, and now ALL of your games have been deleted by Steam, with no appeal possible, you suddenly take a strong disliking to DRM and Steam. I had a hard drive die recently, and it was no problem to re-download the games I got through GOG and Amazon.

Another point to consider is that expansions and DLCs purchased through Steam will generally NOT install on a game purchased elsewhere; not sure about installing non-Steam expansions onto a Steam game, but I would imagine that Steam doesn't handle it well. I have had NO problems with installing various expansions bought through GOG, Amazon, or GamersGate onto base games from one of the others or from the original game CD. I used to have a HOI3 installation and its expansions from 3 different sources (original CD, GamersGate, and Amazon), until Windows no longer supported on-disc DRM and I had to repurchase the game from GOG as a download. Since Steam doesn't play well with others, it means you either have to buy it ALL from Steam, or NONE of it from Steam, and I prefer the latter.
 
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When you attempt to log on and find that your account was hacked, and now ALL of your games have been deleted by Steam, with no appeal possible, you suddenly take a strong disliking to DRM and Steam. I had a hard drive die recently, and it was no problem to re-download the games I got through GOG and Amazon.

Another point to consider is that expansions and DLCs purchased through Steam will generally NOT install on a game purchased elsewhere; not sure about installing non-Steam expansions onto a Steam game, but I would imagine that Steam doesn't handle it well. I have had NO problems with installing various expansions bought through GOG, Amazon, or GamersGate onto base games from one of the others or from the original game CD. I used to have a HOI3 installation and its expansions from 3 different sources (original CD, GamersGate, and Amazon), until Windows no longer supported on-disc DRM and I had to repurchase the game from GOG as a download. Since Steam doesn't play well with others, it means you either have to buy it ALL from Steam, or NONE of it from Steam, and I prefer the latter.
I think you are underestimating the power of convenience.

Heck a significant amount of the reasons I hear from people I know and people online for why the don't want to use epic games, hate having games with their own launcher, hate in general other launchers is because they don't want to open another app.

One of the biggest reasons that Epic games launcher still is so far behind steam is that frankly people don't want another app on their computer, it's easier to just launch everything from steam. Heck it was one of Steam's main selling point when it became big.
Food delivery companies charge crazy amounts of money because convenience is so big.

Frankly 99.9% of gamers don't care about the small risks that using a DRM comes with (even people that lose their accounts to hackers), they will still go back to steam because convenience.
 
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I think you are underestimating the power of convenience.

Heck a significant amount of the reasons I hear from people I know and people online for why the don't want to use epic games, hate having games with their own launcher, hate in general other launchers is because they don't want to open another app.

One of the biggest reasons that Epic games launcher still is so far behind steam is that frankly people don't want another app on their computer, it's easier to just launch everything from steam. Heck it was one of Steam's main selling point when it became big.
Food delivery companies charge crazy amounts of money because convenience is so big.

Frankly 99.9% of gamers don't care about the small risks that using a DRM comes with (even people that lose their accounts to hackers), they will still go back to steam because convenience.
By 99.9%, you mean "about 75-80%", meaning 1 in 4 to 1 in 5 PC game sales aren't made on Steam.

A substantial number of people do not prefer convenience over everything else, and as this thread demonstrated, there's also the issue that many people aren't aware alternatives to Steam really exist or why they might choose them.
 
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By 99.9%, you mean "about 75-80%", meaning 1 in 4 to 1 in 5 PC game sales aren't made on Steam.

A substantial number of people do not prefer convenience over everything else, and as this thread demonstrated, there's also the issue that many people aren't aware alternatives to Steam really exist or why they might choose them.
While true, a significant portion of the remaining 25% are for games that aren't purchasable on steam. I may have been exaggerating, but it is true that most people will choose convenience over other factors. It's why grocery stores and department stores exist, or why Amazon and Door Dash and such are massive companies.

I'm not going to say vocal minorities don't matter, but people who hope for other storefronts are a very small minority (just like how mac gamers and linux gamers are a small minority). At least for launch it seems they are prioritizing steam + windows launch, hopefully there's more options down the road.
 
@pdx-sanke

It would really mean a lot for many of us if we could get a GOG or any Non DRM or Third Party Launcher release! I'm willing to wait and buy the game and all its subsequent DLCs from a Non DRM storefront rather than invest everything on the Steam version.

Sorry for the hiatus, but it's really interesting how so many people, customers no less, are not wanitng a DRM free experience. I get that Steam is great and convenient, but here is the thing, GOG is convenient as well, and lets you run the game with all the DLCS without having to go through internet or any third party launch. GOG even lets you access the installers of the game, so you can even uninstall and reinstall the game, never having to worry about reauthentication as far as single player is concerned after having purchased your game. You only need a single purchase to really have access to your game at all times.

I get that Steam is great, but let's be sure of one thing, Gabe is not going to be at the helm forever, in fact he might step down sooner than later considering his age. Would you really want your game access to depend on a company? Look at Ubisoft, they have removed games from the people's game libraries!

Even Steam forced people to change their operating system, otherwise players could not access their games in their own steam library. Why depend on Third Party Launchers for whenever you want to access your own purchases?

At least as consumers, insist for having an option, those who want to stick with Steam may very well do so, but let people who don't want Steam or Third Party Launcher or DRM, also have an option. like GOG.
 
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@pdx-sanke

It would really mean a lot for many of us if we could get a GOG or any Non DRM or Third Party Launcher release! I'm willing to wait and buy the game and all its subsequent DLCs from a Non DRM storefront rather than invest everything on the Steam version.

I understand that is important to you, but as a company/studio, we have to prioritize. For launch, there is no way we will have additional platforms, as Tinto wants to focus on having a solid release on Steam and it is where the huge majority of our players are and all the features are well know and available to be integrated with the game.

To go on GOG, or any other platform, we need to be in a position where we see the potential to have more players experiencing our games, while not adding an increased burden in our operation. Mind you, we do not release and forget a new game. We plan to support it for 5, 10 years, with free patches and DLCs. And every single platform we add, it is another thing to make sure we integrate it correctly with their features, check for bugs, do all the release steps every single time.

We do have other GSGs on GOG, but without sharing specific numbers, I can say that the number of players using it on a monthly basis is very very small compared to Steam. I understand that the studio wants to focus on getting the game out there, make sure it is doing great, before evaluating adding more layers in the operation. And from a business point of view, this is not a priority either.

All that I said here is the same rationale we use for other things like languages, MAC/Linux conversations, console, etc. Every single decision needs to account for years of support, additional point of failures and additional steps on every single thing we do, and then we compare to what is the expected return of that investment (both in numbers, but also in opportunity costs).

So yeah, I would never say "we are never releasing on other platforms", but I don't want to do any promises at this point. Let's get this game out, make sure it is great and then we see what the future has for us.
 
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To go on GOG, or any other platform, we need to be in a position where we see the potential to have more players experiencing our games, while not adding an increased burden in our operation.

This means that anyone wanting something else than Windows and Steam should not buy the game on those (eg to see if it runs on Proton). If they buy it, they are no longer potential new players, and thus PDX has less incentive to do other platforms.

Not sure though how PDX knows how many potential players there are on other platforms? By counting forum rants? ;)
 
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