AoD in Colour

[Hagar]

Based on this link Australian forces did not use horse-equiped forces in large numbers in WWII. All CAV units were trained as motorized/armored troops from the outset, it seems. For instance the 6th Division Cav Regiment was formed in 1939, and trained on machine-gun carriers and, from October, six old Vickers light tanks. I'm sure Epa's sources are better than mine, given the fact that we're talking ANZAC here, so I assume horse-equipped forces did see some action. But according to this source fully horse-equiped forces were no longer an option for the Australian army, as the number of horses that were available for military use had seriously declined between the wars.

 

[Epaminondas]

I'm as sure as I can be that Hagar's right on this one. The horses are definitely Australian and they might well be WWII (though the equipment is WWI) but they're not a field unit unless they belong to the 'Kelly Gang' or the previously mentioned troop deployed in New Guinea. The Kelly Gang was a single troop of cavalry formed by the 6th Division in 1941 (I think) and used for recce and patrol in Syria. It bore the title '6th Division Cavalry Regiment' for never exceeded troop stength.

There is a remaining alternative and that is that they were part of one of several Light Horse Honour units used for ceremonial functions - and the WWI kit would seem to support this.

If you go here though
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...org%2Fwiki%2FAustralian_Light_Horse;1200;1325

I think you'll find your pic as part of the WWI Light Horse reference.

I'll put together some vehicle references for Australia and get them up for you tomorrow. There are a couple of interesting ones to be had.

 

[Hagar]

No, the pic is definitely WWI, as the major already mentioned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Light_horse_walers.jpg

 

[Epaminondas]

Ahh! I see where I misunderstood - read too quickly - but got it now. The major acknowledged that the pic was WWI vintage but was suggesting (presumably on the basis of the use of 'Cavalry' in the division titles) that horsed cavalry was still in use in WWII. So really, the last part of my post was entirely superfluous.

As for the confusion caused by keeping the word 'cavalry' in the division titles - well, down here we've never felt obliged to respect the rigours of the English language. Knoath we haven't!

 

[Hagar]

Interesting reading, this Kelly Gang (link here). They were downgraded from motorized Cavalry, and didn't even use Australian horses...

To solve this problem Berryman decided to make use of the large number of French cavalry horses captured by the 2/33rd Battalion AIF. On the 22nd Brigadier Berryman informed Lieutenant Colonel D. Macarthur Onslow that his 6th Cavalry regiment was to form a horse troop to be used for flank security and outpost duty. Macarthur-Onslow selected C Squadron, many of who’s personnel were immobilised due to the Regiment’s losses in light tanks and carriers, to provide the personnel. The troop was officially activated 1500hrs and allocated on the unofficial code list as ‘Kelly’. By 1900hrs it was simply known throughout the Regiment as the ‘Kelly Gang’.

The “Kelly Gang” was organised into a Troop HQ and HQ section, four horse sections of eight men under the command of a sergeant or corporal, and a wireless Bren gun carrier for radio retransmission. The “Gangs” original 18 members were formed at the village of Dan and that night moved to a flank position at Bnerqi to begin operations.

And I love the quote at the end:
One of the Regiment’s troopers was heard to say “God help us if someone captures a submarine.”

 

[bestmajor]

well at least some horses were there in prewar Australia. later they can use the bren/universal carrier like shown in post 314.

 

[Epaminondas]

You could probably find similar photos from 1959 - maybe even beyond that - as the Light Horse held a place of particular reverence in Australian folk history. It's somewhat faded now, of course, but I can remember as a young kid seeing exhibitions of tent-pegging held in celebration of their achievements. Tent-pegging, by the way, was a particular demonstration of the cavalryman's skill in which the rider, at full gallop, swings down from the saddle to skewer a wooden tent-peg on the point of his sabre.

 

[Hagar]

For ceremonial duties certainly horse-equipped troops were kept for quite some time. And as an early model they probably are OK to use. But in real life it seems that for Australia horse-equipped troops weren't really an option in what role whatsoever, certainly not in large numbers. They were pretty much forced to go for motorized troops from the get-go, it seems. But that's by 1939 standards, when they were drawn into WWII.

 

[Epaminondas]

Yep, if we're going to stick with the 1941 date for the introduction of mech infantry, and stay historical, I can't find a place to slot the mounted troops - especially since Australia had stopped breeding horses for cavalry use by that time. I'm all for colour (no pun intended) though, so if you'd like to squeeze them in on the basis of the Kelly Gang I certainly won't kick.

Otherwise I think you're looking at something like this.

1941: Bren Carriers or Ford Armoured Car 1936 (this might give you an idea of what you'll be looking for there http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29935)
1942: Dingo Scout Car - often listed as Daimler Dingo
1944: Rover Light Armoured Car or Rhino Heavy AC (stretching here because while production facilities had been earmarked this didn't get beyond prototype)
1945: Rhino Troop Carrier (same reservations as above)
After that nothing.

You could, as you suggest, easily weave the Quads in there somewhere and the Chevrolet 3 ton half track, the Ford 3 ton half track, and the International 3 ton half track all saw service.

There's also a Ford/Marmon-Herrington 6 x 6 Command Vehicle that gets a mention in some sources, but while I've seen pics of a Ford/Marmon-Herrington Tractor I can't ever recall seeing that.

 

[bestmajor]

oh, this will be a busy weekend!

re CAV etc: turns out that the tech tree is simply BS . i remember that benden voted for giving the french CAV leaders a panzer leader trait for similar reasons you mentioned (in addition with OG, sometimes).
maybe i have to think about this again? also the german PDs were "made of" KDs, at least some of those you'll find in the 1936 OOB (lead by von Weichs).


EDIT: is somebody able to complete these lists (intelligence officers/HoMIs)?

Director Military Operations & Intelligence, Army Headquarters, Australia


Eric Fairweather HARRISON 1920-1925
Eric Fairweather HARRISON 1927-1929
John Dudley LAVARACK 1929-1932

Vernon Ashton Hobart STURDEE 1933-1938
John NORTHCOTT 1938-1939
Bertrand COMBES 1939-1940

Kenneth Alan MCKENZIE 1941-1942
John David ROGERS 1942-1942

G2 - Irish General Staff

Lieutenant General Liam ARCHER 1932-1941(or 1942)
Colonel Daniel BRYAN 1941/42-??

EDIT2:
some people

2 of the germans are for 1933 exclusively


some people from NZL

 

[bestmajor]

the 39th is up (see first post this thread).

New tech images
New tech teams

some ills for USA, the Commonwealth, hungary, brazil, UK, JAP, SWE, CHI

ministers:
historical HoMIs for ENG, AST, YUG, IRE, BEL, ROM
navy ministers for the CW minors (NZL, CAN)

leaders:
mainly Commonwealth and Japan, 4 germans (2 hidden)

added event image for the capture of singapore
updated vichy event






So the Historical HoMIs for 1936 ingame are (the confirmed ones, historical, or very close)

GER
FRA
YUG
AST
BEL
HOL ...
SCH
JAP
ENG
ITA
IRE
CAN
CZE
POL
SOV
SWE
HUN
BRA
USA
AUS
CHC ...

 

[Epaminondas]

EDIT: is somebody able to complete these lists (intelligence officers/HoMIs)?

Sorry major, that info seems pretty scarce - obviously or you wouldn't be asking. There's nothing on my shelves that helps and a first rumage through the Australian government's public archives hasn't turned up anything. Maybe a second rumage will.

 

[bestmajor]

thanks. i puzzled this together with the info generals.dk provides. i was lucky that tose people all ended up in generals rank, but its possible that there were some people with lower ranks in between. the candidate for 1936 is in and that is what matters most to me. the rest is used to replace unhistorical persons.

 

[Epaminondas]

There are associated problems with divisions within the intelligence service. While the military intelligence (i.e. army) branch is probably the one to go with, naval intelligence had close associations with Britain, and there was the forerunner of the Defence Intelligence Service that co-operated closely with the Americans. I might be able to dredge up a few names below general rank that were prominent in these areas that could be used to fill the gaps - but it would break the historical arc.

 

[bestmajor]

yes, i have Rupert Long as replacement for Ragnar Colvin (same traits etc, just another name and pic)

56094;Head of Military Intelligence;Rupert Long;39;SD;Naval Intelligence Specialist;Medium;Long_Rupert_Basil_Michael1_colour_ast;x

http://www.unithistories.com/officers/RAN_officers2.html#L
http://www.navy.gov.au/biography/rupert-basil-michel-long
(typos included, obviously )


however this is Australia in 1936, 1st of January (please comment if needed, i know the gfx part is questionable, i'm ATM only interested in content)





i'm almost done with AST, so after GER and SOV this would be the 3rd nation in colour in my pack - i just want to have it as close to reality as possible.

 

[Epaminondas]

I think there's a little tinkering that could be done.

Isaac Isaacs was Governor General of Australia, but Australia's formal Head of State was (and still is) Britain's reigning monarch - so for 1936 that would be George V, then Eddie VIII, then George VI. Maybe stick with Isaacs for simple convenience.

Thomas Paterson was Minister for the Interior and at that time this was a long way from Minister of Security. Closer would be Archdale Parkhill who was Minister for Defence.

I'm unsure of Sturdee but can't find a better candidate. I reckon Bertrand Combes is a likely candidate - her served with the Directorate of Military Intelligence from the early 30s but I can't pin down his title before he became a Brigadier.

Edit: Your right with Sturdee - I've found an oblique reference that puts him as Director of Military Operations and Intelligence until 1937.

Richard Williams was indeed Chief of the Air Staff at this time but I'm suspicious of the pic. It might just be the colouring but the uniform looks navy and he looks very young compared with this.

 

[Hagar]

Here you have Richard Williams in colour, even, similar to your image, Epa... Though it seems that one might be from the 50s, based on this 1941 photo. The one the major used is actually his according to Wikipedia, and labeled to be from the 1939-1945 era. Though I concur he comes across a wee bit young in that image, compared to the 1941 shot.

Edit: here are two alternate images of him: undated and 1930, bottom row, middle. Based on the latter I'd concur the current shot seems a wee bit flattering for a WWII image. Though it's a wee bit hard to tell for sure.

 

[Epaminondas]

Good stuff! Hard to argue with that.

Just as an aside, did you flip the pic major? On Hagar's Wikipedia reference we have the head inclined to the right, on yours not so. I only ask because my penchant for order has led me to flip some in the past and it would be nice to know I'm not alone in such aberrant practices.

 

[bestmajor]

Just as an aside, did you flip the pic major? On Hagar's Wikipedia reference we have the head inclined to the right, on yours not so. I only ask because my penchant for order has led me to flip some in the past and it would be nice to know I'm not alone in such aberrant practices.

yes, i did this sometimes

Edit: here are two alternate images of him: undated and 1930, bottom row, middle. Based on the latter I'd concur the current shot seems a wee bit flattering for a WWII image. Though it's a wee bit hard to tell for sure.

well, he was 50 in 1940, i think the colour one is too old. mine is a painting btw.

Edit: Your right with Sturdee - I've found an oblique reference that puts him as Director of Military Operations and Intelligence until 1937.

do you mean #332 on this page? - Combes was HoMI in 1939/40 http://generals.dk/general/Combes/Bertrand/Australia.html

as for the minister of security: its usually the minister of interior or justice - if first one not available, like Frick in GER (or Himmler as minister of Interior in 1943, maybe 1936 as Chef der deutschen Polizei)
Archdale Parkhill was actually the Armaments minister in vanilla (Armaments ministry in HoI is a weird mix of defence/war and finance/economy posts)
Parkhill could be another candidate for CiC post (i renamed this one like the Armaments ministry)

 

[Epaminondas]

do you mean #332 on this page? - Combes was HoMI in 1939/40 http://generals.dk/general/Combes/Bertrand/Australia.html

Yes, that's the bloke I mean. I looked at his Generals.dk entry and it confirms that he was HoMI as a Brigadier from 1939, but he was prominent among MI staff for a few years prior to that and I thought it possible that he might therefore have held the role as a colonel. As I mentioned, though, I then turned up a newspaper reference from which it could be deduced that Sturdee returned to Australia in 1932 and so was in a position to head up MI from then.

as for the minister of security: its usually the minister of interior or justice - if first one not available, like Frick in GER (or Himmler as minister of Interior in 1943, maybe 1936 as Chef der deutschen Polizei)

If it's convenient for consistency's sake to use the Minister of the Interior as Minister for Security by all means do. But the position of the Minister for the Interior in Australia in 1936 was far removed from that occupied by Frick - for a start, there wasn't even an Australian Federal Police force until 1979. Counter-espionage and the like was handled by various organisations formed under the authority of the Military Board and that, in turn, fell within the portfolio of the Minister for Defence.