BATTLETECH Update 1.3 Stream Nov 1st

[ThatGuyMontag]

One thing I always see not considered in the "Evasion is bad' discussions is the amount of damage mitigated by not even being fired upon. With old Bulwark you had your 50% DR but the enemy would hit you with every attack so you'd get all the incoming fire possible and would reduce the damage by 50%. With 5+ evasion pips (achievable with any 4/6/4 mech including Battlemasters) enemies typically fire only one weapon at you until your pips are removed and then you get the full salvos. Less incoming means less chance of a head strike.

I'm really looking forward to the new skills. My old go to was Outrider with Evasive move, Ace Pilot and Bulwark. It gave me a lot of defensive options - fire then move; evasive move for more pips; or face tank with bulwark. Now I'm looking at taking Sure Footing and then both Guts skills for new bulwark and coolant vent. I can move between cover reaping the benefits of both Sure Footing and new Bulwark and then use Coolant Vent to mitigate heat along with melee as required.

I've raised exactly that more than once and the reply is always "but what about AC20s to the face?"

The idea that evasion has probably saved me from countless AC20s to the face without ever telling me (because unlike bulwark you don't get told if a shot would have killed you) gets conveniently ignored, but well, meh, you can lead a horse into a bar, or however the idiom goes.

Definitely agree with the rest of your assessment of the skills. Having SF with BW is only slightly worse than my best case scenario pre-1.3 i.e. 5 evasion and vigilance, which literally felt like invulnerability every time I popped it. Here was me assuming we were losing defences with the revision, but now, as long as we've got cover, we can do it *without* morale abilities, and even get up to 6 pips with a Shadowhawk at Piloting 6!

 

[stjobe]

With 5+ evasion pips (achievable with any 4/6/4 mech including Battlemasters) enemies typically fire only one weapon at you until your pips are removed and then you get the full salvos. Less incoming means less chance of a head strike.

Unless they're in range to melee you. The AI likes to melee targets with high evasion - as I very much noted in my Plague of Locusts campaign.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Do you realise that the cooldown is four turns and in three of those turns you have +8 heat? do you plan to melee most of the time?.

Also I don't think BW is less valuable with the patch, on the contrary. Is not so reliable/powerful but on the other side you can use it in situations where before you couldn't. For example sprint into cover (or jump + brace) and you get 40% DR plus extra evasion for more distance; now if you just brace you get only 20% DR, 40% with BW, 60% if you jump+brace into cover bulwarked or fire with vigilance activated inside cover. And it's more useful for lighter mechs against heavier ones, because if you move faster you can get more easily from cover to cover to activate BW at the same time you generate eva pips.

I have found that different Mechs and their MechWarriors have different potential rhythms to their BATTLETECH combat.

If the bill-payer for 50-points worth of Heat dissipation, is 24-total points of follow-on Heat distributed over three turns... yeah, I am eager t put Coolant Vent to use in my next BATTLETECH Solo-Campaign and to use MechWarrior Sumo extensively in upcoming BATTLETECH Multiplayer Tournaments. Especially in a Mech, known for its Melee capabilities. : )

I quite like the possibilities that Kiva and Team HBS have in store for us with Coolant Vent. :bow:

 

[Doctor Machete]

Now I'm looking at taking Sure Footing and then both Guts skills for new bulwark and coolant vent. I can move between cover reaping the benefits of both Sure Footing and new Bulwark and then use Coolant Vent to mitigate heat along with melee as required.

If you go alpha + CV and melee after that then you open yourself to melee attacks too, losing benefits from generated evasion. You do less damage overall, require more armor to keep up and a miss can be catastrophic against a similar weight mech. It's one thing to occasionally melee a light mech or vehicle with an assault and a very different one to make it your overall strategy, most of all when you have not melee mods. And if you have them then your alpha will be lackluster.

I have found that different Mechs and their MechWarriors have different potential rhythms to their BATTLETECH combat.

Sure, but that doesn't mean a skill or a "rhythm" can't be bad, even if it works. Also in 1.3 variety of rhythms is very significantly capped with the changes to BW, now all players are pretty much forced to play a very dynamic playstyle. And I like these changes but don't make this an issue about variety.

If the bill-payer for 50-points worth of Heat dissipation, is 24-total points of follow-on Heat distributed over three turns... yeah, I am eager t put Coolant Vent to use in my next BATTLETECH Solo-Campaign and to use MechWarrior Sumo extensively in upcoming BATTLETECH Multiplayer Tournaments. Especially in a Mech, known for its Melee capabilities. : )

In Battletech I don't care about MP, so if you'd tell me CV is a fantastic skill in MP I won't disagree. Also I respect your point of liking CV. I'm not even saying that can't be fun or worth playing for that reason, only that imo is very bad compared to other similar level skills.

I quite like the possibilities that Kiva and Team HBS have in store for us with Coolant Vent. :bow:

Not saying it can't work, only that imo it's way worse that other alternatives at lvl 8. The AW-8Q does only slightly more damage than other mechs for its weight and it's slower to get into range. To put it kindly, in my experience I've found melee in general not very impressive in the vanilla game.

If you use a mech primarily for firepower then a lvl 8 skill used in combat turns 1-6-11 doesn't make the cut, even when supported by lackluster melee (without melee mods) for the +8 heat turns. And if the primary role is to get into range and melee then again a lvl 8 skill to augment the firepower doesn't worth it too. Not because CV is worthless but because other lvl 8 skills are much much beter.

But maybe there's something I'm not seeing, what would be your build in terms of weapons, heatsinks and equipment with the AW-8Q to make the most of the CV skill?

 

[jsbenjamin]

I'm sure someone has already said this somewhere, but I'm amused that Career Mode only lasts 1200 days - and that Kiva said in the stream that this made for a longer, slower game. I've played through the campaign three times, and each one was well over 2000 days - so Career Mode seems very short to me!

 

[scJazz]

I feel CVent is going to be the skill to bring on desert, Martian and lunar biomes in addition to being alright besides those special environments. Bulwark is also be less valuable there unless you spend vigilance. Sure Footing however will work the same anywhere.

If you go alpha + CV and melee after that then you open yourself to melee attacks too, losing benefits from generated evasion. You do less damage overall, require more armor to keep up and a miss can be catastrophic against a similar weight mech. It's one thing to occasionally melee a light mech or vehicle with an assault and a very different one to make it your overall strategy, most of all when you have not melee mods. And if you have them then your alpha will be lackluster.


Sure, but that doesn't mean a skill or a "rhythm" can't be bad, even if it works. Also in 1.3 variety of rhythms is very significantly capped with the changes to BW, now all players are pretty much forced to play a very dynamic playstyle. And I like these changes but don't make this an issue about variety.


In Battletech I don't care about MP, so if you'd tell me CV is a fantastic skill in MP I won't disagree. Also I respect your point of liking CV. I'm not even saying that can't be fun or worth playing for that reason, only that imo is very bad compared to other similar level skills.


Not saying it can't work, only that imo it's way worse that other alternatives at lvl 8. The AW-8Q does only slightly more damage than other mechs for its weight and it's slower to get into range. To put it kindly, in my experience I've found melee in general not very impressive in the vanilla game.

If you use a mech primarily for firepower then a lvl 8 skill used in combat turns 1-6-11 doesn't make the cut, even when supported by lackluster melee (without melee mods) for the +8 heat turns. And if the primary role is to get into range and melee then again a lvl 8 skill to augment the firepower doesn't worth it too. Not because CV is worthless but because other lvl 8 skills are much much beter.

But maybe there's something I'm not seeing, what would be your build in terms of weapons, heatsinks and equipment with the AW-8Q to make the most of the CV skill?

I think AMechwarrior has made a reasonable point. It might be that usage will be more about the biome for those that use it. I hated the original Coolant Vent with a passion. My builds tend towards a measure of heat neutrality as well. Not sure I'm going to like this new version of CV much either to be honest but it certainly is better than the original.

 

[Havamal]

I'm sure someone has already said this somewhere, but I'm amused that Career Mode only lasts 1200 days - and that Kiva said in the stream that this made for a longer, slower game. I've played through the campaign three times, and each one was well over 2000 days - so Career Mode seems very short to me!

The mode is infinite.

The scoring parameters aren't. The score will pop up at that milestone at which point you can continue playing.

 

[jsbenjamin]

The mode is infinite.

The scoring parameters aren't. The score will pop up at that milestone at which point you can continue playing.

Oh, for sure. I knew you could keep playing (and I don't really care about a score). I was just pointing out that clearly not everyone took forever like I do when going through the campaign! (I always knew I was going slowly, given that every time Kamea joined my team her skills were well below my own Mechwarriors' skills!)

 

[Doctor Machete]

I think AMechwarrior has made a reasonable point. It might be that usage will be more about the biome for those that use it. I hated the original Coolant Vent with a passion. My builds tend towards a measure of heat neutrality as well. Not sure I'm going to like this new version of CV much either to be honest but it certainly is better than the original.

I'm not saying that the CV concept is bad per se, although I like more the Juggernat one (even if it's much worse in execution), and agree that 1.3 CV is a lot better than the previous iteration if the skill.

I'd love to see a counterpoint to my critic, an example of how can be made to work well and how exactly is worth the investment (a build setup with a bit of commentary I think would be enough). Remember again that the cooldown is four turns, which is what I dislike the most of it.

You can optimize easily a mech for hotter biomes just by dropping some firepower for better cooling when approaching very hot biomes but you cannot easily substitute the advantages a skill like MT/AP gives you.

 

[scJazz]

Oh, for sure. I knew you could keep playing (and I don't really care about a score). I was just pointing out that clearly not everyone took forever like I do when going through the campaign! (I always knew I was going slowly, given that every time Kamea joined my team her skills were well below my own Mechwarriors' skills!)

Yeah... I've been thinking about the 1200 day limit. I do not disagree with it. I think the idea of cutting things off just prior to the start of the 4th SW is a clever time point. I'm just thinking about how much time I usually spend vs not having the gobs of money and free mechs being tossed at me during Priority Missions, the slower XP pace, and pieces of 5. It is going to be a somewhat jarring change of pace. Which is not a bad thing... just... jarring.

 

[scJazz]

I'm not saying that the CV concept is bad per se, although I like more the Juggernat one (even if it's much worse in execution), and agree that 1.3 CV is a lot better than the previous iteration if the skill.

I'd love to see a counterpoint to my critic, an example of how can be made to work well and how exactly is worth the investment (a build setup with a bit of commentary I think would be enough). Remember again that the cooldown is four turns, which is what I dislike the most of it.

You can optimize easily a mech for hotter biomes just by dropping some firepower for better cooling when approaching very hot biomes but you cannot easily substitute the advantages a skill like MT/AP gives you.

Unfortunately, the only people who can give us a real opinion rather than theory crafting are the Special Secret Commandos who have played with the tweaked abilities but are covered by an NDA.

 

[stjobe]

I'm sure someone has already said this somewhere, but I'm amused that Career Mode only lasts 1200 days - and that Kiva said in the stream that this made for a longer, slower game. I've played through the campaign three times, and each one was well over 2000 days - so Career Mode seems very short to me!

Yeah... I've been thinking about the 1200 day limit. I do not disagree with it. I think the idea of cutting things off just prior to the start of the 4th SW is a clever time point. I'm just thinking about how much time I usually spend vs not having the gobs of money and free mechs being tossed at me during Priority Missions, the slower XP pace, and pieces of 5. It is going to be a somewhat jarring change of pace. Which is not a bad thing... just... jarring.

As @scJazz says, Career mode defaults are

• Ironman
• 5 pieces of salvage
• Unequipped 'Mechs
• Slow MechWarrior progression (half XP compared to the campaign)
• Random MechWarriors
• No priority mission payouts

All this will more than likely lead to a longer, slower game - at least that's my experience playing with 5 pieces of salvage. It takes way longer to progress through mission difficulty. And, as @Havamal said, you get your score at 1200 days but there's nothing stopping you from just continuing past 1200 days.

 

[Liare]

another mitigation nerf, is the knock-on effect on mech builds being considered here ? because as the difficulty, and odds, go up you're basically getting pigeon-holed into monobuilding your mechs for maximum armor and whatever firepower you can fit with the leftover tonnage as every point of armor becomes precious and the enemy numbers climb, you go from having to handle focused fire from 2-4 light mechs all the wayto 8-12 heavy-to-assault mechs and with evasion pip stripping, skimping on armor is really not a reasonable option at the latter stages.

this basically means every mech build consists of hitting max armor, stripping a bit off to get to nearest ton/half ton and then figuring out what to fit, unless you're building a rear-liner missile boat that is invariably going to be lobbing massive LRM salvos over cliffs. (HI STALKER!)

there's no real point in weighing the options on swapping the SRM4's to SRM6's on the Orion V, because you're going to pull both to get enough armor on to make it non-suicidal to use in the first place

 

[scJazz]

• Random MechWarriors

OMG!

The subtle horror of that just hit me... as I was listening to the Mission I am playing right now...

No Glitch! Random... no Glitch...
Yeah I could rename a pilot Glitch and set the voice but that doesn't make it Glitch.
Just like not getting Dekker killed at some point makes the not-dead Dekker not a Dekker!

OMG!
I literally just had one of those *involuntary shivers* while typing this... NOT KIDDING!
OMG!
This might be the feature that makes me hate this new release.
Captain Kirk voice... *KIIIIIIVAAAAAAA!*

 

[Amechwarrior]

Do you realise that the cooldown is four turns and in three of those turns you have +8 heat? do you plan to melee most of the time?.

Also I don't think BW is less valuable with the patch, on the contrary. Is not so reliable/powerful but on the other side you can use it in situations where before you couldn't. For example sprint into cover (or jump + brace) and you get 40% DR plus extra evasion for more distance; now if you just brace you get only 20% DR, 40% with BW, 60% if you jump+brace into cover bulwarked or fire with vigilance activated inside cover. And it's more useful for lighter mechs against heavier ones, because if you move faster you can get more easily from cover to cover to activate BW at the same time you generate eva pips.

I'd think you just plan for one round of melee as it becomes risky after that to stand and deliver. The thing is, that single melee round will dissipate your unit minus the 8 residual heat. This clears your slate to rack the heat scale back up in the remaining 3 turns till you can use it again. It costs less than a ML in heat a turn. I think we will find the kind of builds that can maximize the ability.

 

[stjobe]

Captain Kirk voice... *KIIIIIIVAAAAAAA!*

Personally I have booted Glitch, Medusa, Behemoth, and Dekker first thing after Majesty Metals on my last three or so play-throughs.

They'll always hold a place in my heart as the "original" gang, but it's good with some variation too. There's so many great lines of voice-acting in this game it's a shame to only hear the same four ones over and over. As an example, I don't know which MechWarrior it was but he was in a Vindicator with a SL in the head, firing it and a ML at a very badly damaged Locust - had either hit the Locust would have been dead, but both missed. Imagine my surprise when he says, with real frustration in his voice (and also voicing my own feelings after an evening with the worst luck): "Miss? This game is rigged!"

 

[scJazz]

Personally I have booted Glitch, Medusa, Behemoth, and Dekker first thing after Majesty Metals on my last three or so play-throughs.

They'll always hold a place in my heart as the "original" gang, but it's good with some variation too. There's so many great lines of voice-acting in this game it's a shame to only hear the same four ones over and over. As an example, I don't know which MechWarrior it was but he was in a Vindicator with a SL in the head, firing it and a ML at a very badly damaged Locust - had either hit the Locust would have been dead, but both missed. Imagine my surprise when he says, with real frustration in his voice (and also voicing my own feelings after an evening with the worst luck): "Miss? This game is rigged!"

NO!
If I can't listen to Glitch or get Dekker killed... NOT BATTLETECH!

 

[Doctor Machete]

Unfortunately, the only people who can give us a real opinion rather than theory crafting are the Special Secret Commandos who have played with the tweaked abilities but are covered by an NDA.

That goes both ways. If criticism is invalid due to theorycrafting then positive opinions are too, not only about the CV skill but about all the changes. Who knows, all could be the worst, although I bet we both don't actually think that. And the fact you can live test the changes doesn't mean you can't be wrong, skills were internally live tested before going beta and changed again after feedback.

The opinion of a betatester can be better informed, and that counts, but is not more "real". You don't value the same the opinion of betatesters than the non betatesters but also don't disregard all of them completely. Just because you don't have access to a beta doesn't mean you can't make valid points if you have access information about it.

So for now we do what we can do (theorycraft). And if someone tells me that CV can work very well in hot climates, it would be nice to be shown how that can be the case, as a mental experiment. Because I can go in a lot of detail explaining why I think is bad. And still I maybe wrong but that's what I think for the moment.

I'd think you just plan for one round of melee as it becomes risky after that to stand and deliver. The thing is, that single melee round will dissipate your unit minus the 8 residual heat. This clears your slate to rack the heat scale back up in the remaining 3 turns till you can use it again. It costs less than a ML in heat a turn. I think we will find the kind of builds that can maximize the ability.

But you're not going to do much damage in melee if you don't pack melee mods, and at range (safer and easier to reach) you could fire with lower alpha firepower but way more on average and with CS/PS. I don't see the big advantage of a slightly bigger alpha if afterwards you have to resort to a regular melee atack which makes you more vulnerable. And if you have melee mods then the alpha won't be so great even with -50 heat. And in turn three and four, if (with your example) revert back to ranged attacks you have +8 heat.

So you "max" alpha 1º turn (-50 heat), regular melee 2ºt (+8 heat but cool completely), "regular-low" alpha or melee 3º and 4º t (+8 heat both, and extra wepons for the "max" alpha are not used), "regular" alpha 5º t (+0 heat, extra weapons for the "max" alpha are not used). Also, because you did melee in the 2ºt you probably are vulnerable to melee attacks in 3, 4, and 5º turn. And you need to get much near the target if you intend to melee in the 2ºt, which means you may have to spend one turn or more without attacking to close distance. And because melee and/or very short range is expected you'll probably want more armor which could be employed for better cooling instead.

In contrast you can use the double attack turn tactic with MT or alpha two times and retreat in the same turn of the second attack with AP. Both tactics allow for a very high burst of firepower at much longer range. Less vulnerable because you are not exposed at any moment to melee attacks, allowing you to keep building eva pips. You can optimize damage and heat for a specific biome and two alphas (or more if you want sustained damage instead of spike damage).

 

[ThatGuyMontag]

But you're not going to do much damage in melee if you don't pack melee mods, and at range (safer and easier to reach) you could fire with lower alpha firepower but way more on average and with CS/PS. I don't see the big advantage of a slightly bigger alpha if afterwards you have to resort to a regular melee atack which makes you more vulnerable...

Using melee to cool down 'mechs with hot alphas has been a common strategy since the beta. It's a risky strategy sure, but it's still perfectly viable, especially given striker builds are most definitely a thing. In fact melee builds are arguably a little better off now because of the new Bulwark allowing a bit more damage mitigation without spending resources, though obviously cover *and* melee is still fairy situational.

As for damage, melee has always been tempting. On the right mech you don't even need any arm mods to make it worthwhile, but a single mod on a Shadowhawk gives you the punch of an AC20 in a single location with a better chance to hit and which also happens to ignore *and* strip your target's defences. It's up to the commander to decide when the payoff is worth the risk, but it's a tradeoff I've gladly made plenty of times in my play throughs.

 

[Havamal]

another mitigation nerf, is the knock-on effect on mech builds being considered here ? because as the difficulty, and odds, go up you're basically getting pigeon-holed into monobuilding your mechs for maximum armor and whatever firepower you can fit with the leftover tonnage as every point of armor becomes precious and the enemy numbers climb, you go from having to handle focused fire from 2-4 light mechs all the wayto 8-12 heavy-to-assault mechs and with evasion pip stripping, skimping on armor is really not a reasonable option at the latter stages.

this basically means every mech build consists of hitting max armor, stripping a bit off to get to nearest ton/half ton and then figuring out what to fit, unless you're building a rear-liner missile boat that is invariably going to be lobbing massive LRM salvos over cliffs. (HI STALKER!)

there's no real point in weighing the options on swapping the SRM4's to SRM6's on the Orion V, because you're going to pull both to get enough armor on to make it non-suicidal to use in the first place

YMMV of course but I've never once felt I needed to add additional armor at any available difficulty so far.
In fact I've only ever added it once even, when early on I had .5 tons left over and no extra support weapons. I could have just dropped that way but I like round numbers on the build.
The game is playable stock only and underweight even.