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Veldmaarschalk

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Apr 20, 2003
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beforetheconquest.jpg

IMPORTANT MESSAGE:
This mod needs to be downloaded in two parts


I. Download the mod
Here, this includes the new map and the first version of the other files

II. After having installed the above file, then download version 1.02 from here

Welcome all,

This is a new (or rather modified) scenario-mod for CK-DV. It is a stand-alone scenario mod, which means that I have made changes to some game-files that will make the originial scenarios look very weird.

So to use this mod you can best do as follows

Copy your entire Crusader Kings DV-folder or make a fresh installation. If you do the latter you will have to do it like this
- Install Crusader Kings
- Install Deus Vult
- Install the latest beta-patch of 13 June 2008
- Install the Before the Conquest Mod


What is this mod about ?
The mod starts on January 8, 1066. Harold Godwinson has just been crowned king of England. Which means that William the Conquerer is still only known as the Bastard and just the duke of Normandy.

What has changed compared to vanilla-CK and TASS ?
This mod uses the British Isles Map mod made by Kurek. Which has added provinces to Wales and Ireland this mod therefor mostly focuses on the British Isles.

There have been some changes in the cultural setup. Cultures that have been added are:
1. Anglo-Danish
2. Cumbrian
3. Norse-Gaelic (now with its own usuable tag)
4. Scottish and Irish Gaelic are split again

Which means that the British Isles now have the following cultures: Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Danish, Cornish, Cumbrian, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Norse-Gaelic.

Removed cultures are
1. English
2. Albanian
3. Carinthian

Wales has received 2 new duchies, Powys and Glamorgan, Ireland has received 1 new duchy, Tyrone. Removed are the duchies of Limburg, Hainaut and Urbino

The 'English' duchies have received Anglo-Saxon names, Mercia, East Anglia, Kent, Wiltshire and Hereford.

All the generic 'English' dynasties (Percy, Redvers, St. Grey and so on) now have generich 'Anglo-Saxon' names (Wulfnothson, Uthredson, Aethelstanson and so on)

This mod, contains all the events and new traits from the TASS-mod.

Any suggestions, advice, bugs-reports are welcome. :)

I especially could use some more help with Cumbrian characternames, I now have mostly used this site, Early British kingdoms. Which means that the Cumbrian characternames also contain Welsh, Breton and Cornish names

Special thanks and credits go to Kurek, Jodarkelf, Drachenfire, Calgacus, Vertinox, Wiz, MRAKoris and people I have forgotten. :)


britishisles.jpg
 
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Veld this looks fantastic and I am sure to play it! Kurek's map looks fantastic! And I love that you have also used the native Anglo-Saxon for Before the Conquest! Who did you speak to, to discover that? I've used Early British Kindoms as background sources as well.
 
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Recommendations for Wales:

1. Kill off Haer ferch Gillyn, first wife of Bleddyn ap Cynfyn. She was dead at least by 1053, when he negociated a marriage allience with Maelienydd by marrying Morien ferch Idnerth.

2. Give Gruffydd ap Cynan Aberffraw claim on counties of Gwynedd, Ynys Mon, Perfeddwlad, and Powys. Also, claim on Duchy of Deheubarth (to represent the Aberffraw claim as primary rulers of Wales since Rhordi the Great). Also, he should be friends whith Meredudd ap Owain and Rhys ab Owain Dinefwr, though after both of them died he became friends with Rhys ap Tewdwr Dinefwr (their cousin), himself becaming prince of Deheubarth and helped Gruffydd reclaim Gwynedd in 1086. Essentially, the friendships between Gruffydd and the potential rulers of Deheubarth should allow for Gruffydd to go to Deheubarth, and for player of Deheubarth to assist Gruffydd by waring against Gwynedd.

3. St. David's Bishopric. I know you expressed reservations in a prior post about this, but I would make Dyfed a bishopric under Bleiddud Tyddewi (Bleiddudd of St. David's). Also, have Sulien of Llanbadard and his sons courtiers there. The capital of the principality of Dehuebarth should be Ystrad Tywi, where the Dinefwr citidal is located.

4. Add a claim of Ceredigion to Bleddyn ap Cynfyn Mathrafal, to mimic the war between Bleddyn ap Cynfyn and Rhys, Prince of Deheubarth.

5. Though I know you disagree (and I have already corrected this in my own game), I do need to express base income revisions for Wales as:

Gwynedd: 3
Ynys Mon: 2
Perfeddwlad: 2

Powys: 3
Maelienydd: 2 or 1

Dyfed: 2
Ystrad Tywi: 3
Ceredigion: 2

Glamorgan: 3
Gwent: 3 or 2
Brecons: 2 or 1

6. Increase the number of times Owain, Rhys, Dafydd, Gruffydd, Maelgwn, Meredudd, and Iorwerth appear in the Welsh names list.

7. YIKES! The generic dynasties for Wales are the vanilla dynasties, which need corrections. Should I post a new list?

8. Succession in Wales should be male prefernce primogeniture, closet approximated by semi-salic. In essence, Welsh law designated a primary heir, an edling (and almost always the first born son), who would succed to the principality, and also to most of the land (the Lion's share according to Lloyd). Junior sons were also given land, but smaller commotes. Only the freemen divided the land equally amongst sons.




Recommendations for England:

1. Possibly, create the "duchy of" The Welsh March out of Chester, Shrewsbury, and Hereford. The "March" was there even before the Normans. That is to say that there was cross border raids and the like, a "march" between the two peoples.

2. Need to find Anglo-Saxon equivalents for duchy of Wiltshire and Northampton. Possibly give Sumerset, Bristol, and Glouchester to Duchy of Wessex.
 
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1. OK

2. I am not to fond of handing out free claims at the start of the scenario. Making them rivals should be enough. It most often leads to claims anyway

3. This bishopric will be added

4. See 2

5. Won't happen :)

6. OK

7. No need to repost them, I can find them in DVIP

8. Will do

1. No more room for a duchy here. During Saxon times there may have been a March but I know of no Earl

2. Wiltshire and Northampton are based on Anglo-Saxon earldoms, at least the names are

Wiltshire was at least in the 8th and 9th century an important earldom. The ruler of Wiltshire was one of the richest and most important ealdorman of the king of Wessex
 
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Veldmaarschalk said:
2. I am not to fond of handing out free claims at the start of the scenario. Making them rivals should be enough. It most often leads to claims anyway

Agreed with this apart from claim to Mon. Grufydd was legally the ruler of Mon and should have a claim on the cantrefoedd Mon. The other claims come only from the propaganda department and cheerleading section of his family - the monks of the monasteries they endowed, so getting him to manufacture them in game would mirror history.

re. Cumbric. Not sure you'll ever have much luck coming up with anything but Cumbric names from the annals. And they could come straight from a Welsh name list. We've no idea about whether Cumbric even existed as anything other than a Brythonic dialect which incorporated Goidelic loan words post-C10th. Whether or not it developed into a full language in its own right is completely up in the air given the lack of anything but the odd reference via Latin in legal texts - C11th it would seem that there's certainly not much difference between it and Welsh but that's going on a handful of words and ones in a context which encourages fixed meanings... Personally, I'm going to mod Cumbric to Welsh, and do the same with Yr Hen Ogledd - such an approach is supported by the literary sources which indicate little or no in difference in language or culture up to the C10th.

re. Saxon 'March'. Considering Englefield was right along the Dee and the next welsh principality was that of the Tegeingl's, talking of a March in 1066 seems odd. Harold has just beaten up Gwynedd for claiming overlordship over other parts of Wales. Mercia was the 'March', and of all Saxon kingdoms it seemed the most culturally attuned to the Welsh (making specific allowances and references to them in many of its laws). That said the three border divisions (Wreocensǣte, Magonsaete, Hwicce) did have unusual set-ups and imply that they were specifically formed and organised to repel Welsh incursions. But other than being 'Mercian' there was no link of a specific overlord amongst them. Earl Aelfgar (formerly at the time) of Chester/Mercia/East Anglia actually burned down Hereford (along with his Welsh ally Gruffydd ap Llewelyn ap Seisyll) in 1055 after defeating it's Earl, Ralph the Timid, in battle. Hereford then was moved to the Godwin block of Wessex. Prior to this, Hereford had last had its defences renewed a century beforehand indicating that the Saxon policy of encouraging peace along the Welsh border was working out.

Meh, stupidly long post. Sorry. Will give some constructive feedback when I've had chance to look at the files.

edit: just one little bugbear which I've bitten my tongue about over the past 3 years but think might be of interest, the use of 'c' for /k/ in Welsh only really comes about with the advent of the printing press - prior to that it was 'k'. eg Kymru not Cymru.
 
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Wow! Ran the scenario for 10 years as Gwynedd (some confuzzled dynasties happening there and in England hehe) but truly superb Veld. My congratulations to the mapmodder too. Great work.

Couple of things/suggestions which I've noticed (this is a game without any of my modding on top - not added that yet):

1) England gets a lot of internal issues so the Saxon rivalries are working really well but neither Scandinavia nor Normandy are bothered about pursuing claims yet. Is this a result of not having a claim on a county? Noticed the Scandinavians don't have rivalry with the Godwinsons either.

2) Couple of odd little bugs (not sure whether it's mod or DV but listing here as custom demands...) - very rarely, I've noticed the 'personality matures' triggering twice for the same person. In current game it did it for a newly wed bride of one of my dynasty's sons. No biggie but odd. Next oddity is what happens when you make someone a vassal through force but they are at war with other people you aren't allied with or at war with. The vassalisation works but their wars with other people continues, and if you leave your army there, you still lead the siege. Sadly no way to end the war as you aren't able to force a peace with other states.

3) Fflynt generic name is out of place in 1066 - Le Fflynt as such didn't exist. If you need a replacement, would suggest Croesatti or Atiscross which was the centre of lead smelting in Englefield from at least Roman times and gave it's name to the hundred - it's on the outskirts of modern-day Flint. Other generic names based on place - Rhuddlan and Yr Wyddgrug.

History/save game available if you want to have a peek Veld (with the glorious battle between two blind counts just finished!). Really impressed with this mod. Thank you :)
 
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1) England gets a lot of internal issues so the Saxon rivalries are working really well but neither Scandinavia nor Normandy are bothered about pursuing claims yet. Is this a result of not having a claim on a county? Noticed the Scandinavians don't have rivalry with the Godwinsons either.

I haven't paid much attention to that, but I will see what I can do with it

2) Couple of odd little bugs (not sure whether it's mod or DV but listing here as custom demands...) - very rarely, I've noticed the 'personality matures' triggering twice for the same person. In current game it did it for a newly wed bride of one of my dynasty's sons. No biggie but odd. Next oddity is what happens when you make someone a vassal through force but they are at war with other people you aren't allied with or at war with. The vassalisation works but their wars with other people continues, and if you leave your army there, you still lead the siege. Sadly no way to end the war as you aren't able to force a peace with other states.

These are problems related to vanilla-CK. I can't much do about them AFAIK

3) Fflynt generic name is out of place in 1066 - Le Fflynt as such didn't exist. If you need a replacement, would suggest Croesatti or Atiscross which was the centre of lead smelting in Englefield from at least Roman times and gave it's name to the hundred - it's on the outskirts of modern-day Flint. Other generic names based on place - Rhuddlan and Yr Wyddgrug.

Will change that one


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About Cumbrian culture

Strathclyde was a Brithonic kingdom, so I could also name the culture Brithonic. But I like the name Cumbrian more.

They weren't a majority in the 3 provinces I placed them. But neither was another culture the dominant one. Alex Woolf in his book 'From Pictland to Alba 789-1070' compares the region with the Balkans/former Yugoslavia. Where you had, in one province, Bosnian, Serbian, Croation and other cultured villages in one, relatively small area.
 
Veldmaarschalk said:
About Cumbrian culture

Strathclyde was a Brithonic kingdom, so I could also name the culture Brithonic. But I like the name Cumbrian more.

They weren't a majority in the 3 provinces I placed them. But neither was another culture the dominant one. Alex Woolf in his book 'From Pictland to Alba 789-1070' compares the region with the Balkans/former Yugoslavia. Where you had, in one province, Bosnian, Serbian, Croation and other cultured villages in one, relatively small area.

Absolutely, it's a personal choice and one which has merit and one I can totally understand. I was tempted to use Brython as a catch-all culture in how I had Ck set up a year or so ago but I quite like the Bretons as they were my first ever choice for a CK game and I didn't want to lose them. :eek:o

re. Fflynt - I actually got quite a buzz when a courtier appeared with the name. Home sweet home and all that ;)

Love the new map. So, so much fun for anyone choosing the Britain and Ireland for a dynasty and as it's my first game with DV, I'm sure you can imagine the overall 'wow!' factor. :)
 
I have uploaded version 1.01 of this mod here

What has changed:
1. Made Brega an independent county
2. Made Dyfed a bishopric and a vassal of Deheubarth
3. Removed the duchy of Wiltshire
4. Added the duchy of Cumbria (I have chose to use the C instead of the K, since there is a province called Cumberland on the map)
5. Fixed the characternames bug
6. Fixed some dynasties names, but for the Welsh dynasties I kept the vanilla-ones, which I like more
7. Increased the base-income of some Welsh provinces
8. Lowered the ages of the Leofricsons with some 10 to 15 years
9. Changed the laws of the Welsh countries to 'salic primogeneture' and 'monastic supremacy'
10. Added a new scenario, called Stamford Bridge

The battle of Stamford Bridge took place on 25 september 1066. The forces of King Harold II of England defeated the Norwegian forces of Harald Hardraade and king Harolds brother Tostig. But in this scenario, things turned out different. This time it was Harold who lost (and died in) the battle, leading to the desintegration of the kingdom of England.

His brother Tostig was installed as the Earl of Northumbria, while the eldest son of king Harald of Norway, Magnus Haraldsson was installed in the ancient viking 'kingdom' of Yorvik (York)

Edwin and Morcar Leofricson became the independent rulers of Mercia in the north-west of England. In East Anglia, Gyrth Godwinson took control over London and his elder brother Leofwine, who lost Kent to duke William of Normandy, became the Earl of Wessex.

Duke William of Normandy, conquered England below the Thames, but was unable to make himself king.

There is now an uneasy peace in England, various factions are now trying to recreate the kingdom of England, who will succeed ?

England after the Battle of Stamford Bridge, October 1066

Stamfordbridge.jpg
 
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Zebedee said:
edit: just one little bugbear which I've bitten my tongue about over the past 3 years but think might be of interest, the use of 'c' for /k/ in Welsh only really comes about with the advent of the printing press - prior to that it was 'k'. eg Kymru not Cymru.

Naming is conventionally rendered in the modern version of the language for accessability by the modern audience. So it would be Gruffydd rather then Gruffudd, or conversly Cymru rather then Kymru.

My friend Llywelyn and I also had this debate previously, as he wished to render the names in Early Middle Ages Welsh, compleat with map and merch! Rather then ap and ferch. When the truth is that except in the most formal of poetry and official documents, the contraction to ap was present by the mid 12th century.

I fully agree with the standard convention.

This is Veld's mode and clearly he may do as he wishes here, and we know our disagreements. When I play his mode I correct the Welsh income levels and suppose I shall the generic dynasty names too :rofl:

But Veld did a fantastic job over all. So minor issues is not a game breaker and not something I'll overly bust his chops over.
 
Drachenfire said:
Naming is conventionally rendered in the modern version of the language for accessability by the modern audience. So it would be Gruffydd rather then Gruffudd, or conversly Cymru rather then Kymru.

Well Gruffydd vs Gruffudd is more to do with how the vowel is pronounced and loose spelling rules than anything to do with accessibility for modern audiences (one sees the same with English names at this time too - it was the printing press which standardised the vowel sounds across regional dialects). Both are equally acceptable even now. Map and merch were uncommon forms by C11th and so shouldn't be in the game. The letter 'K' however didn't disappear until the C15th. But then Ceridwen is a modern use of a name and appears on some Welsh name lists for the game (for comparison, how many girls called Venus appear in other naming lists....).

Think Veld knows that I'm pulling his leg on this one and am not seriously suggesting him to change his mod. I do what I always do, mod it in myself. Disagree with you about income levels btw as the game is not balanced 'historically' in that way, but then that's neither here nor there. :)

---------

Veld - there do seem to be some issues with the Welsh courts. Bleddyn's children have a couple of duplicates as far as I can tell. Not a game killer, but it does make him exceptionally fertile! eg 2 x Rhiryd ap Bleddyn
 
Disagree with you about income levels btw as the game is not balanced 'historically' in that way, but then that's neither here nor there.

I am so very glad to have another player interested in Wales!

I have previously listed my reasoning behind the income levels I suggest in other posts. But in short it is based on the suggestions by Professor John Davies when he states that any united Wales would be based on one of the four basically equal regions of Wales: Gwynedd, Powys, Deheubarth, Glamorgan. As an authority, Davies suggests that these regions should be basically even, and in our gaming environment Wales should not be artifically improverished or an easy push over for England. Free Wales encompassed two-thirds of modern Wales, or 7 of the 11 provinces of the current map by Kurak. It was not until 1283 that Wales was conqured against a forceful and united England.

I feel very strongly against making Wales artifically poor, making it an easy target for an artifically strong England. If a certin province should be improverished at the start of the game to represent it impoverished at the start of the scenario, it can be made so without reducing the base income.

From my perspective, the base income should be:

Principality of Gwynedd: 7. Gwynedd at 3, Ynys Môn and Perfeddwlad at 2 each. (Conversley, Ynys Môn could be 3 and Gwynedd 2)

Principality of Deheubarth: 7. Ystrad Tywi 3, Dyfed and Ceredigion 2. (Conversly, Dyfed could be 3 and Ystrad Tywi 2)

Principality of Powys: 5 (or 4). Powys proper 3, Maelienydd 2 or 1. (and of corse it would or should have claim on Perfeddwlad to possibly expand there for another 2, making it 7!)

Principality of Glamorgan: 7 or 6. Glamorgan 3, Gwent 2. Brycheiniog as 2 or 1.


As for names:

I agree that names like Ceridwen are artifical for the period and incorrect, and I object to names more appropriate for the Early Middle Ages (with many archaic forms) finding their way into the naming list for the High Middle Ages. Like you I object to Map and Merch, as these were highly stylaized archaic forms used in high court poetry of the Bards, but had been an issue in earlier debates.

If you would suggest a naming list I would welcome that, prehaps we can be on the same page here.

And for the generic dynasties I strongly disagree with using ap in front of the generic dynasty name because most often a generic dynasty member is female, and all the forms in the generic dynasty name are the male form of 'son of so-and-so'. This is jarring to my eyes. In the generic dynasties for the DVIP:Wales expansion and for the DVIP I have suggested using local cantrefi, comparable to a lordship, as a generic dynasty name list, specific for each principality (mostly for Gwynedd and Powys though). This follows the precident in Europe, where a 'dynasty' name would follow a lordship. This looks very appropriate in the corse of a Welsh game to me.

An example would be a generic character named Angharad Llŷn, or Angharad Rhuddlan, or Angharad Arfon, or Angharad Meirionydd. As I am sure you know, this would translate to Angharad of Llyn, Angharad of Rhuddlan, and Angharad of Arfon, or Angarad of Meirionydd (of corse dropping the o for of). Rather then a generic name like Angharad ap Tewdwr, which is technically Anghared son of Tudor, completly objectionable and game-breaking for me.

Other Welsh cantrefi and lordships that may serve as generic dynasties for Gwynedd may be found on this map , and for Powys here, both of which my friend James Francom created for Wikipedia. Rhion created this map for Deheubarth which is great as well.

However I have also suggested more Anglisized generic naming list for those regions that are exposed to greater Anglo-Norman influence, especially in the later scenarios when local cantrefi and commotes were replaced by Norman baronies. For instance, I have suggested names like Ellis for South and West Wales provinces, and Meredith, and Griffith, all of which are completly modern Anglicised surnames. Additionally, this would work when there is a character that has the first name in pure Welsh such as Gruffydd and Maredudd or Llywellyn, whom also has a generic last name based off the same first name: thus a Gruffydd Griffith or Maredudd Meredith, or Llywelyn Llewellyn.

This is the same decision Jord an I reached for DVIP for Scotland, when we list more Anglicised names for Lowland Scotland, and more Gaelic names for Highland Scotland, to cover all scenarios best. Sometimes the same surname may be found within the same duchy, but Gaelic in one province and Anglo-Scottish in another.

Other sources of plausable Welsh surnames might be the Welsh monastic communities, or clas, such as Penmon, Pentraeth both on Ynys Mon, Llancarfan for Glamorgan, and Llanbadarn for Ceredigion. Many many important Welshmen... and their decendent families, came from these communities. Undoubtedly, had the Norman invasions not devistated Wales, these communities would have formed the basis for many Welsh towns.

This reasoning may may introduce an artifical mechanic to the naming list, but Welsh surnames is an artificial concept well into the Early Modern period. I have found no other satisfactory template that would cover all possibilities for our needs, and this is the balance I have determined best given the tools we have to work with.
 
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@Drachenfire - Davies' work is a good primer. But I try to steer clear from Wales discussions because I'm truly bored with Welsh history. Re. naming conventions - it's like cultures and equally contentious and pointless to debate. However, I fully agreed and participated in the attempts to get Scotland a proper and historical name list a couple of years back. I helped Llewelyn out with a naming list he did some time ago, perhaps he still has it. My naming list will not be your taste judging by your comments on your Welsh mod thread and here. As for income, if you're going to rebase Wales, you need to rebase England (and the rest of the game) and you'll find exactly the same problem with claims from England over Wales if you do that. As I've no idea where the income values originally came from in CK, and have no inclination to try and calculate them independantly, I work with what is given. :)

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@Veld - really love the set-up of the post-Viking invasion, but I think there may be a case for giving the main rulers claims on counties to trigger off some war. I've run scenario twice and neither has yet seen any war between the three contending sides in England (20 years or so into game). Not sure whether this is your intention or not. Minor point, as most of mine usually are ;)
 
Scorpi said:
Sorry for asking... But isnt this mod a little bit the same as your "alternative scenario" mod?

The difference is that this mod uses a new map, with 9 new provinces. 4 in Ireland and 5 in Wales

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As for the other things, I will look into it. I am not to happy yet about the Welsh income-levels. If we look at populationsize then England in the 11th century had almost 2 million people, while Wales had 300,000 max. So that is about 1/7th of England.

England has an income of 100, 1/7th of that is 14.

And for the generic dynasties I strongly disagree with using ap in front of the generic dynasty name because most often a generic dynasty member is female, and all the forms in the generic dynasty name are the male form of 'son of so-and-so'. This is jarring to my eyes

This is also the case for the Anglo-Saxon and most of the generic Norse, Slavic and probably some other culture dynastie-names. They are all listed as 'son of ......'. The only alternative I see is to use place-names and name them all 'of ......'.
 
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