Before the Conquest - a new scenario mod for CK-DV

[Zanza]

Principality of Gwynedd: 7. Gwynedd at 3, Ynys Môn and Perfeddwlad at 2 each. (Conversley, Ynys Môn could be 3 and Gwynedd 2)

Principality of Deheubarth: 7. Ystrad Tywi 3, Dyfed and Ceredigion 2. (Conversly, Dyfed could be 3 and Ystrad Tywi 2)

Principality of Powys: 5 (or 4). Powys proper 3, Maelienydd 2 or 1. (and of corse it would or should have claim on Perfeddwlad to possibly expand there for another 2, making it 7!)

Principality of Glamorgan: 7 or 6. Glamorgan 3, Gwent 2. Brycheiniog as 2 or 1.

That's 26 total. Compared to 38 total for Scotland and 99 for England that seems rather high. The North_England area has 28 base income. It encompasses Northumberland, Westmorland, Durham, York, Lancaster, Chester, Lincoln, Leicester, Derby. Is Wales really similarly rich as that area?

 

[Drachenfire]

That's 26 total. Compared to 38 total for Scotland and 99 for England that seems rather high. The North_England area has 28 base income. It encompasses Northumberland, Westmorland, Durham, York, Lancaster, Chester, Lincoln, Leicester, Derby. Is Wales really similarly rich as that area?

Scotland and Ireland deserve higher rankings as well, and was discussed in the Income Values for Britain revision thread sometime back. Both are to get revisions, and they have been revised ... I believe... in the DVIP.

Clearly North England would be wealthier then Wales, it did have York after all. But neither was Wales improverished either. My rankings ranged from 24 to 26, which I think is in-line with North England by comparason. I would prefer 26 clearly, and list 24 to satisfy Veld for his scenario as the reasonable least value that I feel is acceptable for play.

Time has obscured the true value of Wales because after the Norman conquest most of the wealth of the country was siphoned off to English overlords rather then stay in the country and invested in the country.

England with 99 income level easily over powers Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. It has long been stated that the income of the Celtic Cressant should equate to that of England in the Base Incomes of Britain thread.

When additional provinces were added to Wales, then that necessatated a revision of the total numbers for Wales to again not make any one province impoverished.

Anther clear complication is that listing the income level of a country.

A province can be set at impoverished at the start of a scenario to limit its initial economic preformance. And the base numbers reflect the highest income available for the province.

The point is the base value should reflect a neutral assessment of its value both in economic terms (which includes population) and the need for game balance to make a realm both playable and sustainable. I believe my totals reflect this on balance for Wales as compared to England.

Look, this is Veld's scenario and clearly I honor that and defer to him.

But if you have to take income out of Wales, take it from the south east. That was the region that fell to the Normans and was under Norman control the longest. Though it contains some of the most fertile land in Wales, according to Davies it was only one region which could have formed a Welsh state, and it is far more important that Gwynedd and Deheubarth ... and even Powys survive longer.

So Principality of Glamorgan alternate totals: 7 or 4. Glamorgan 3 or 2, Gwent 2 or 1. Brycheiniog as 2 or 1.

This is also the case for the Anglo-Saxon and most of the generic Norse, Slavic and probably some other culture dynastie-names. They are all listed as 'son of ......'. The only alternative I see is to use place-names and name them all 'of ......'.

I gave links for the cantrefi that you could use for place names for over two-thirds of the country. It should be noted that the Welsh name for Pembroke is Penfro in the map for Deheubarth though, James doesnt have that listed.

But I try to steer clear from Wales discussions because I'm truly bored with Welsh history.

@Zebedee: I respect that my friend, and value your imput.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Veld - there do seem to be some issues with the Welsh courts. Bleddyn's children have a couple of duplicates as far as I can tell. Not a game killer, but it does make him exceptionally fertile! eg 2 x Rhiryd ap Bleddyn

I only can find one of him in my game, also I don't see any other duplicate

@Veld - really love the set-up of the post-Viking invasion, but I think there may be a case for giving the main rulers claims on counties to trigger off some war. I've run scenario twice and neither has yet seen any war between the three contending sides in England (20 years or so into game). Not sure whether this is your intention or not. Minor point, as most of mine usually are

The scenario indeed needs some more work. But I am already glad I got it working . At some point while modding I screwed up and I had to start all over again.

 

[Zebedee]

Thanks Veld. Definitely seems to be two Bleddyn sets of children in my game. Will reinstall again although last time was a clean install too. Oddness and apologies, as that would imply a corrupt install. Meh.

Thoroughly enjoyed running through a couple of 50 year games. Although I'm getting increasingly cross with having the Vikings quite so close - at least the Anglo-Saxons are polite and friendly, the Normans not interested - but the darned Vikings have an unhealthy interest in Wales...

 

[Zanza]

Some other regions in the 24-26 range are Duchy of Bohemia (6 provinces, 25 income), Sicily (5 provinces, 23 income), Kingdom of Denmark (8 provinces, 26 income), or Kingdom of Serbia (8 provinces, 21 income).

My knowledge of medieval history isn't exactly great, but my impression is that all of these regions were considerably more important and powerful than Wales. But I don't really intend to convince you. I only clicked the thread randomly and wondered about these values.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Thanks Veld. Definitely seems to be two Bleddyn sets of children in my game. Will reinstall again although last time was a clean install too. Oddness and apologies, as that would imply a corrupt install. Meh.

I am also confused, since a file can be corrupted. But adding extra characters or doubling existing ones is very weird.

I downloaded my uploaded files again and I still can only find one entry for Rhiryd ap Bleddyn

Sorry for asking... But isnt this mod a little bit the same as your "alternative scenario" mod?

I forgot some other differences.

Make a mod only for one specific scenario allows me to use more and some specific cultures, duchies and dynasties. f.e. having Anglo-Danish culture, or a duchy of Mercia or a Anglo-Saxon dynasties in the 1187 or 1337 doesn't make any sense.

 

[Zebedee]

I'm sure it's me being dumb Veld. Will reinstall later on tonight and see if it re-occurs.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I'm sure it's me being dumb Veld. Will reinstall later on tonight and see if it re-occurs.

No, not necessary

The names are spelled differently, I just look for Rhirid ap Bleddyn not for Rhyrid ap Bleddyn


Both characters come from Drachenfire, posted here. They have different mothers, so it looks like they are two different characters, but since I don't know Drachenfire's source I can't check

I also found a bug in the Stamford Bridge scenario, Sweden is ruled by a zombie-king

 

[Zebedee]

No, not necessary

The names are spelled differently, I just look for Rhirid ap Bleddyn not for Rhyrid ap Bleddyn


Both characters come from Drachenfire, posted here. They have different mothers, so it looks like they are two different characters, but since I don't know Drachenfire's source I can't check

Bleddyn had one son called Rhirid/Rhiryd/Rhyrid (it's the same name, just variant spellings). There was another Rhirid (Rhirid 'Flaidd') who was Haer's grandson but he's much later (fl. 1160). (Source: Nerys Ann Jones ac Ann Parry Owen (gol.), Gwaith Cynddelw Brydydd Mawr, cyfrol I (Caerdydd, 1991).)

Welsh family histories are 50% fact and 50% fiction, especially once you get to pre-Tudor times. So I suppose it's possible that someone somewhere has it that there were two sons of the same name by different mothers by Bleddyn. It would be an exceptionally rare thing to occur (as in totally unattested away from the web perhaps?) but I suppose it's possible.

But enough by me. Love this mod. Thank you

 

[Drachenfire]

Bleddyn's extended family come from Llywelyn's sources posted in the Here Be Dragons thread. He may have had two sons sharing the first same name, as Owain Gwynedd also had multiple children sharing the same first name by different mothers. So too for that matter did better known rulers.

At any rate, I defer to published reliable sources. As I can not verify Llywelyn's posted family members I defer to Zebedee's published source.


EDIT: I take that back. The extended Mathrafal family was first posted by Llywelyn in my Welsh Expansion, around post 6, 7, and 8. I did not add all of the extended Mathrafal clan, however. The Welsh Expansion formed the basis for the Here Be Dragons expansion.

 

[Zebedee]

Bleddyn's extended family come from Llywelyn's sources posted in the Here Be Dragons thread. He may have had two sons sharing the first same name, as Owain Gwynedd also had multiple children sharing the same first name by different mothers. So too for that matter did better known rulers.

Only two daughters named Gwenllian are attested too. I truly cannot think or find an example of two sons of the same name. It's certainly possible given infant mortality that an older son dies before reaching the age of 14 and the name is then given to a new son born afterwards. But the very nature of Welsh naming patterns precludes male heirs from having the same name, at least within the lifetime of one another. It's possible that a bastard received a name which was then given to a legitimate child and the bastard himself becomes legitimised afterwards. All things are possible. But the Bleddyn family thing just struck me as an error. I had no intention of debating sources and am quite willing to believe that a source exists which is reliable enough to be used in this case.

For Welsh geneaology the internet really, really does not help. Even good sources admit that it's educated guesswork once you go back beyond Henry Tudor and the noble families of Wales seeking to establish how lovely and 'Welsh' they were. The annals are just too sketchy and too error prone to be relied upon. Which is kind of my way in saying, I thought it was a database error but as it's not, all is well

 

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Downloading now. I'm very excited to try out the Stamford Bridge scenario, a fascinating what if scenario indeed. Much thanks Veld!

 

[Drachenfire]

Only two daughters named Gwenllian are attested too. I truly cannot think or find an example of two sons of the same name. It's certainly possible given infant mortality that an older son dies before reaching the age of 14 and the name is then given to a new son born afterwards. But the very nature of Welsh naming patterns precludes male heirs from having the same name, at least within the lifetime of one another. It's possible that a bastard received a name which was then given to a legitimate child and the bastard himself becomes legitimised afterwards. All things are possible. But the Bleddyn family thing just struck me as an error. I had no intention of debating sources and am quite willing to believe that a source exists which is reliable enough to be used in this case.

For Welsh geneaology the internet really, really does not help. Even good sources admit that it's educated guesswork once you go back beyond Henry Tudor and the noble families of Wales seeking to establish how lovely and 'Welsh' they were. The annals are just too sketchy and too error prone to be relied upon. Which is kind of my way in saying, I thought it was a database error but as it's not, all is well

Oh I tend to agree completly with you, Zebedee, about internet sources. I favor reliable sources in all cases and would not propose that the genelogies are not without errors in many cases. Conversly, it didnt seem to hurt adding what was assumed to be his sons either based off of the sources Llywelyn provided.

The Mathrafal clan (other then Bleddyn himself) interest me little, I have always followed the Aberffraw family more. But the genelogies that Llywelyn offered did reveal just how complete the Powys take-over of Gwynedd was following 1063. In essence, they controled or were influencial in over two-thirds of Wales for about a generation! From Maelienydd to Ynys Mon.

 

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Well, after a good time playing last night, I must say it's another great mod Veld . I only have one suggestion/correction thus far. Edgar 'The Atheling' and his family/ancestors (if I recall) are assigned to the "of Essex" dynasty. This is more correct than vanilla CK assigning them to the "Atheling" Dynasty, but from all my reading I believe Edgar belonged to the House of Wessex, as did his ancestors and previous Kings of England, save Harold Godwinson.

That's it, I can do that myself but I just thought I'd give a heads up. Also, from my own modding of vanilla, there are two separate "Of Essex" tags, id = { type = 12 id = 702740226 } and id = { type = 12 id = 363 }.

The former is assigned to the Anglo-Saxon royals, but it's also used to spawn courtiers in the respective province, while the latter is unused. I think a mistake was made and they meant to assign the Anglo-Saxon dynasty to 363 rather than the former. This is just if you choose to keep Essex as Edgar's dynasty.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

My dynastie name for Edgar 'Atheling' is Cerdicson.

'of Wessex' is indeed a name that also could be used, 'of Essex' is definitely wrong.

 

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My dynastie name for Edgar 'Atheling' is Cerdicson.

'of Wessex' is indeed a name that also could be used, 'of Essex' is definitely wrong.

o I misread the tag in the scenario file, apologies. I was either looking at the vanilla folder by accident (how embarrassing!) or I just simply misread in general. Regardless I still find the Essex tag an interesting tidbit in vanilla.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Uploaded version 1.02

Changelog:
1. Sweden is now no longer ruled by a 'zombie' king
2. The duchy of York is now selectable at the start of the Stamford bridge scenario
3. An Cabhan is turned into a county and ruled by Lethlobhar Ua Laidghgén. Anybody who has more informations about his character, is welcomed to post it. The same goes for the count of Brega
4. Removed the duchy of Northampton, Waltheof Siwardson is reduced to count in both scenarios
5. Added a duchy of Essex
6. The primary title of Gyrth Godewinson in the Stamford Bridge scenario is now duke of Essex (to keep London as his capital)
7. Reduced the income of some Welsh and Irish provinces. Total income for Wales is now 16, total income for Ireland is 30.
8. Made William de Warenne count of Surrey in the Stamford bridge scenario also added his brother Rudolph
9. Made Roger de Montgomery count of Sussex in the Stamford Bridge scenario
10. Added Ralph (Raoul) and John (Jean) de Conteville as courtiers to the count of Dorset (Robert de Conteville), thanks to LouisXI
11. Changed the triats of Richard of Aversa and his son Jordan, thanks to Rob de Hard
12. Handed out numerous claims to various characters in the Stamford Bridge scenario
14. Made Olaf Haraldsson, duke of York and his brother Magnus (the previous duke) duke of Trondelag. Olaf was with his father at Stamford bridge, while Magnus had stayed behind in Norway
15. Gave Skuli and Ketil Godwinson the bastard-trait. They were most likely not even sons of Tostig, just friends. But then they would be useless, so I made them bastards, plus I made them a bit older.
16. Added some alliances here and there
17. Addes some more characternames to various cultures
18. Gave Paul Thorfinnson of Orkney his wife
19. Increased the child-mortality by editing the death at young age event
20. I probably have forgotten somethings that I have edited

 

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Uploaded version 1.02


10. Added Ralph (Raoul) and John (Jean) de Conteville as courtiers to the count of Dorset (Robert de Conteville), thanks to LouisXI

15. Gave Skuli and Ketil Godwinson the bastard-trait. They were most likely not even sons of Tostig, just friends. But then they would be useless, so I made them bastards, plus I made them a bit older.

Firstly, thanks yet again . It's the first time I've seen anyone implement a suggestion of mine.

Secondly, I am curious as to the status of Skuli and Ketil, in addiction to Harold's bastard sons in the scenario. I can't find anything on them (granted that I haven't tried all that hard), and if you have a link to read on them or a simple explanation would be nice. I was unaware that Harold had any children and had never heard of Skuli/Ketil.

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POST:

I also would like to say I like the DNA of John/Ralph. I have another question however. I was playing as Edgar the Atheling in Mercia (made Edwin give me Warwick), and I noticed something odd. Robert de Conteville had become Duke of Wessex and had all of Leofwine's (sp) counties as well. How did he do this? Robert had no sons who could've inherited and it eventually went to Odo. I think it's impossible the count of Dorset could've amassed enough prestige to claim all those counties and the duchy title, and then win and take them.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Firstly, thanks yet again . It's the first time I've seen anyone implement a suggestion of mine.

Secondly, I am curious as to the status of Skuli and Ketil, in addiction to Harold's bastard sons in the scenario. I can't find anything on them (granted that I haven't tried all that hard), and if you have a link to read on them or a simple explanation would be nice. I was unaware that Harold had any children and had never heard of Skuli/Ketil.

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POST:

I also would like to say I like the DNA of John/Ralph. I have another question however. I was playing as Edgar the Atheling in Mercia (made Edwin give me Warwick), and I noticed something odd. Robert de Conteville had become Duke of Wessex and had all of Leofwine's (sp) counties as well. How did he do this? Robert had no sons who could've inherited and it eventually went to Odo. I think it's impossible the count of Dorset could've amassed enough prestige to claim all those counties and the duchy title, and then win and take them.

Skuli and Ketil

Tostig had [three] [probably illegitimate] children:

b) [KETIL "krókr" . Snorre names "Skule, a son of Earl Toste, who since has been called the king's foster-son, and his brother Ketil Krok…of high family in England" when recording that they accompanied Olav King of Norway[378], the context suggesting that he and his brother were adults at the time. If this is correct, they must have been their father's illegitimate sons, given the date of his marriage, and were not the "unweaned" children referred to above. Morkinskinna states that Skuli was the son of Tostig, mentioning Ketil in the same passage but without specifying any relationship[379]. He and his brother were taken back to Norway by the sons of Harald III "Hardråde" King of Norway after the battle of Stamford Bridge. King Olav III made grants of land to both brothers, who settled and had families[380].]

c) [SKULI "kongsfostre" . Snorre names "Skule, a son of Earl Toste, who since has been called the king's foster-son, and his brother Ketil Krok…of high family in England" when recording that they accompanied Olav King of Norway[381], the context suggesting that he and his brother were adults at the time. If this is correct, they must have been their father's illegitimate sons, given the date of his marriage, and were not the "unweaned" children referred to above. Morkinskinna states that Skuli was the son of Tostig, mentioning Ketil in the same passage but without specifying any relationship[382].

- NORWEGIAN NOBILITY.

d) [OLAV (-1066 or after). Simeon of Durham names "Tosti's son Olave and earl from the isle of Orkney named Paul" in 1066[383]. The reference to this son named Olav has not been corroborated in other sources so far consulted.]

Harold II and his children

King Harold & [Mistress (1)] had seven illegitimate children:

2. GYTHA ([1050/55]-). Her estimated birth date range is based on the birth dates of her children and the estimated date of her husband's second marriage. According to Saxo Grammaticus, after her father's death she and her two brothers "immediately emigrated to Denmark" where Svend II Estrithsen King of Denmark "received them in a spirit of family duty" and arranged her marriage to "Waldemarus King of the Russians"[1620]. Gytha is named as King Harold's daughter in Fagrskinna, which also states that she married "Valldimar Konongr sun Iarozlæifs konongs I Holmgarde". The husband of Gytha has generally been identified as Grand Prince Vladimir "Monomach"[1621], but there appears to be no specific information which links the couple beyond doubt. Baumgarten cites no Russian source which corroborates the marriage[1622], although his work is particularly thorough in its source citations. In addition, it is surprising that no single name from Gytha's family was used among the known descendants of Grand Prince Vladimir. While it is true that the Rurikid dynasty rarely imported foreign names for the male descendants, it was not unusual for females to bear names which are recognisable from the families of foreign princesses who married into the family, the obvious example being the Scandinavian name Ingeborg used by Vladimir's son Mstislav for his daughter by Christina of Sweden. It is probable that Gytha herself would not have been considered a good marriage prospect at the time: her mother was obscure, she herself was illegitimate, her father had been killed ignominiously, her family lived in exile without influential connections, and her brothers had fallen into complete obscurity. If a Russian marriage was arranged for her, it is more likely that her husband was one of the lesser princes of the dynasty. The fact that the Scandinavian sources consistently propose a name similar to Vladimir should not be viewed as conclusive, as the difficult Russian first names were frequently transcribed into contemporary western sources with more creativity than accuracy. The inevitable, if disappointing, conclusion is that this Russian marriage of Gytha's should be viewed with caution. [m ([1070]) as his first wife, VLADIMIR Vsevolodich of Pereiaslavl and Suzdal, son of VSEVOLOD Iaroslavich Prince of Pereiaslavl and Suzdal [later VSEVOLOD I Grand Prince of Kiev] & his first wife Maria [Irina] of Byzantium (1053-19 May 1125). He succeeded 1077 as Prince of Smolensk, 1078 as Prince of Chernigov, and 1113 as VLADIMIR "Monomach" Grand Prince of Kiev.]

3. GODWIN (-after 1069). Florence of Worcester records that "Haroldi regis filii Godwinus, Eadmundus, Magnus" returned from Ireland and landed in Somerset where they were defeated, in a passage which deals with events in mid-1068[1623]. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle records that "the sons of King Harold" (unnamed, and without specifying how many sons there were) came from Ireland and landed in "the mouth of the Taw", where they were defeated by "Earl Brian", before returning to Ireland[1624]. Florence of Worcester records that "duo Haroldi filiis" sailed from Ireland 24 Jun [1069] and landed "in Ostio flumis Tavi"[1625]. He and his brothers may later have taken refuge with Svend II Estrithsen King of Denmark.

4. EDMUND (-after 1069). Florence of Worcester records that "Haroldi regis filii Godwinus, Eadmundus, Magnus" returned from Ireland and landed in Somerset where they were defeated, in a passage which deals with events in mid-1068[1626]. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle records that "the sons of King Harold" (unnamed, and without specifying how many sons there were) came from Ireland and landed in "the mouth of the Taw", where they were defeated by "Earl Brian", before returning to Ireland[1627]. Florence of Worcester records that "duo Haroldi filiis" sailed from Ireland 24 Jun [1069] and landed "in Ostio flumis Tavi"[1628].

5. MAGNUS (-after [1069]). Florence of Worcester records that "Haroldi regis filii Godwinus, Eadmundus, Magnus" returned from Ireland and landed in Somerset where they were defeated, in a passage which deals with events in mid-1068[1629]. He may also have taken part in their raids in south-west England.

6. ULF (-after 1087). It is not certain who Ulf's mother was. Freeman ascribed him to Harold's legitimate marriage[1630], but Barlow is dubious about this[1631]. If it is correct, Ulf would presumably have been twin with his brother Harold. Florence of Worcester records that Robert III "Curthose" Duke of Normandy released "Ulfam Haroldi quondam regis Anglorum filium, Dunechaldumque regis Scottorum Malcolmi filium" from custody after his father's death in Sep 1087, knighted them and allowed them to leave Normandy[1632].

7. child (stillborn or died young, bur Christ Church, Canterbury[1633]). The Memorials of St Dunstan record that "filium comitis Haraldi" had been buried in Christ Church, Canterbury, next to the tomb of St Dunstan, recording that this had caused offence[1634].

8. GUNHILD (-after 1093). The primary source which confirms her parentage has not yet been identified. Nun at Wilton Abbey. She was abducted from the abbey in 1093 by Alain "Rufus/the Red" Lord of Richmond. She lived with him until he died soon afterwards, subsequently living with his brother and successor Alain "Niger/the Black"[1635]. Mistress (1) of: ALAN "Rufus/the Red" Lord of Richmond, son of EUDES de Bretagne Comte de Penthièvre & his wife Orguen [Agnes] de Cornouaïlle (-4 Aug 1089[1636], bur Bury St Edmunds). Mistress (2) of: ALAN "Niger/the Black" Lord of Richmond, son of EUDES de Bretagne Comte de Penthièvre & his wife Orguen [Agnes] de Cornouaïlle (-1098[1637]).

And here is another source

Other sources that I use for 1066 are
- 1066 The year of three battles by Frank McLynn
- The Godwins by Frank Barlow
- William the Conquered by David C. Douglas

I also would like to say I like the DNA of John/Ralph. I have another question however. I was playing as Edgar the Atheling in Mercia (made Edwin give me Warwick), and I noticed something odd. Robert de Conteville had become Duke of Wessex and had all of Leofwine's (sp) counties as well. How did he do this? Robert had no sons who could've inherited and it eventually went to Odo. I think it's impossible the count of Dorset could've amassed enough prestige to claim all those counties and the duchy title, and then win and take them.

Well the grabcost for the AI is lower then for humans, but him grabbing all those titles is strange indeed. I have no idea how he did it.

 

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Well the grabcost for the AI is lower then for humans, but him grabbing all those titles is strange indeed. I have no idea how he did it.

Interesting stuff indeed. I had always thought Harold died childless and gave little attention to any nephew's he may or may not have had. Thanks. In regards to Robert, I was thinking it was possible that maybe he had been granted all those titles? I find this very unlikely but it's the only explanation I can muster. I've seen the AI hand out duchies, but never multiple counties so yet again it's strange.. Maybe Robert revoked Leofwine's counties or something similar?