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Seeing that a single attack from two tac bombers can cost something between 100 and 150 men even with low techs and doctrines, the Luftwaffe will be more of a concern than the Infantry. Without the ability to oppose their bombing runs, you'll suffer a lot of casualties. Bearing that in mind, a reserve of manpower would be neccessary so you are able to fill the gaps in the ranks.

Any thoughts about static AA?
 
A Brief Discussion of Upgrades

This short post isn't going to be definitive on the upgrade process but reflects the limited information that I have acquired.

If we acquire a single new tech that affects changes the combat capabilities of an infantry brigade - excluding doctrines which are free - then we get

Upgrading is activated and appears to cost 1.1% of base brigade cost for half the base time the brigade would take to build. In practice this costs a total of 0.55% of the total IC days for the original build. I've colelcted no evidence on how this componds for upgrading units that are already significantly advanced

An upgrade has reduced daily cost if the unit is more than one step behind the latest tech level for the tech in question. Cost is divisided by the number of steps to reach fully upgraded.

The cost of a new unit of the same type is increased by 0.67% of the daily cost and total build time. It looks like the increased build time is rounded up. Given the small percentages involved this will typically amount to a 1.33% increase in total unit cost although this may be significantly adjusted upwards due to rounding.

Each tech upgrade adds 0.01 to the daily supply requirements

Upgrading does not generate any practicals

This process leads to a few interesting conclusions about upgrades.

  • A new tech can be applied to a unit for a 0.55% cost via upgrades
  • A new tech can be applied to a unit for a 1.33% cost via new builds
  • Late upgrading has significant cost reductions
  • Supply costs of upgraded units are small enough to be a minor issue
  • Early builds followed by upgrades optimises the use of unit practical cost bonuses

This leads to clear cut conclusions over the best build strategy as it is clearly optimal to build the required units as quickly as possible and then upgrade them. In particular NONE of the following is useful

  • Building up a supply stock early so that units can be built latter at the correct tech level whilst we drain the supply reserves.
  • Upgrading early.
  • Reinforcing early

The biggest question is whether there is anything else that can be added to this. I can't guarantee I've captured all the relevant data and would appreciate contributions from anyone else who fancies a few experiments.

I would also like to thank the state of Bhutan for their cooperation in the experimental process (along with the well known development consultancy "instantresearch") ;)
 
Re-examining research priorities​

The post has become necessary as a result of investigating the optimal research patterns for Germany and discovering just how extreme the bias is towards certain techs. In fact the bias is so strong that the resulting issues should dominate Polish decision making as well. Just feel relieved the AI doesn't do this analysis.

The first thing we need to do is to consider the value of the various properties of a unit. To do this I am going to look purely at infantry and artillery brigades in the context of fighting the German army as it is in the 1939 scenario. To do this we need to start by listing of this German forces and their softness and examine the implications of fighting it
5 arm 20%
1 AC 78%
7 Mtn
271 Inf
6 LArm 30%
18 Mot 87%​
How to aggregate the significance of softness

Since I need to evaluate the usefulness of hard attack I need to estimate the effective softness of the enemy force. To do this I'm going to treat all the brigades as free standing and assume that my side has no hard attack. In those circumstances a unit with X% softness will only take X% of normal casualties and hence will survive and fight me for 100/X times longer than normal divisions. This means they contribute more to the average hardness of the enemy on a per combat day basis. The total can be characterised as
Sum((100/soft) * soft) / Sum ((100/soft)) for all units​
which nicely reduces to Number units divided by Sum ((100/soft))
Quick reference to a spreadsheet gets an answer of 89.3% soft. As an average softness this comes over quite a bit harder than you would expect but I did base this on my force having NO hard attack. Since we are definitely going to have (a fair bit actually) the effective figure would come out lower. However for simplicity I am going to continue the calculations using a softness of 90% although in truth I should use a higher figure.

The next question is why on earth did I carry out this calculation. Well the reason is very simple, I want to know how valuable each point of hard attack is to balance against the cost of acquiring it and the simple answer is that each point of soft attack is going to get me 0.9 effective attacks for each point of hard attack getting me 0.1

The conclusion from this is that acquiring soft attack for my units is 9 times as valuable on a point by point basis as hard attack. Please note, if you allow for the unavoidable existence of some hard attack in units the ratio goes up someway above 10:1 and it will be apparent in further analysis that this higher figure should be the one to use. Generally I will refer to soft attack being 10 times as valuable as hard attack.

How about defensiveness and toughness

This is a slightly tougher analysis because it requires us to make a series of estimates that are in fact strongly affected by circumstances and how we exercise our conclusions. The required estimates are

Ratio of attacking combat hours to defending combat hours

This is an easy one requiring us to make a fairly arbitrary decision. In our case we are going to be considering a fairly monolithic force so it is a global value but note that if we had militia / garrison units they would be considered separately (with an attack ratio of zero - eg defence only). I'm going to go for an arbitrary 25% attack and 75% defence.

Fraction of defensiveness / toughness used in a combat

This is a difficult one. Given typical defensiveness levels you will find in a combat maybe 25% of your divisions don't get shot at due to random targeting and of the others, because defensiveness exceeds attack, many will use up only part of their score. I am going to assume we on average only use 50% of our defensiveness points and 66% of our toughness points.​
Now how do we combine these into a similar evaluation to hard attack - eg how do we score against attack values?

Each defence point has the effect of halving the effectiveness of one enemy attack so we can calculate the values as follows

1 defensiveness = 1/2 * 3/4 *1/2 = 3/16 = 18.75% of a soft attack point
1 toughness = 1/2 * 1/4 * 2/3 = 1/12 = 8.3%​
In both cases I am going to add 10% to compensate for the fact that soft attack is devalued by enemy hardness. The leads us to the following list of approximate equivalents in terms of combat value.

  • 1 SA
  • 10 HA
  • 5 Def
  • 10 Tough
The actual scale of the superiority of soft attack in this is all rather dramatic and immediately suggests that our research and build strategy needs to be adjusted to a different focus. My initial views are…

Research clearly needs to focus on soft attack techs and these should be pursued in absolute preferences to expending leadership on the other scores even in the face of significant ahead of time penalties

Research into the secondary techs may have a detrimental effect on IC efficiency as the value of upgrades in HA and tough are sufficiently low that we might be better of devoting IC elsewhere

Despite the previous statement, the infantry / artillery plan has nothing else to expend IC on as it is manpower limited so we may research them anyway

Any plan to use IC on other things can consider a very tightly focused research regime for ground units with a surprisingly small loss of combat effectiveness

Changing the Plan

By now I hope most of you are issuing a few expletives as we have been doing it all wrong. The current plan is based on researching the full range of infantry and artillery techs when they are within date and maybe pushing ahead the soft attack ones. Clearly we can push this much further as when we scale the tech pay offs into the ratios and score how valuable each tech is

infantry
SA = 60
HA = 2.5
Def = 16
Tough = 6

artillery
SA = 60
Other = 6​
Given these relative values for the techs it is immediately obvious that we can draw some painful conclusions

It is actually worth completely ignoring infantry anti-tank weapons tech as it is nigh on completely worthless compared to other stuff.

The soft attack techs totally dominate and should be researched continuously irrespective of their declared dates

Infantry defensiveness is worth something but may not be worth even keeping up to date

Infantry toughness (and artillery "other") can probably be ignored completely and certainly should never be researched ahead of time under any circumstances

In this case the new plan is to push the 2 key techs from day 1, drop the hard attack / toughness techs and do infantry defensiveness within date. This results in significant leadership economy and saves some IC on pointless upgrades. The plan could even be pushed ruthlessly down to soft attack techs only and combined with generating some air power. In fact that plan must definitely be investigated at some point in this AAR as similar analysis can be used for air units meaning that a combined ground and air power plan is very much IC limited and not restrained by leadership availability.
 
Well, having good infantry to grind the enemy is definitely way to achieve victory, but what is even more important is a great military mind commanding disciplined soldiers. :)

But is hard attack not quite useful against enemy tanks and other harder stuff than flesh?
Or shall enough SA grind its way through stone and Stahl? :p
 
Well, having good infantry to grind the enemy is definitely way to achieve victory, but what is even more important is a great military mind commanding disciplined soldiers. :)

But is hard attack not quite useful against enemy tanks and other harder stuff than flesh?
Or shall enough SA grind its way through stone and Stahl? :p
All hard units have a soft component that can be targetted by soft attack. Because soft attack is far more plentiful everything but the most ridiculous hard unit (say 5 brigades of heavy tanks) will take more damage from soft attacks than hard attacks. My analysis is intended to show that Poland gains far more from acquiring more soft attack than acquiring more hard attack. It is odd that you can defeat panzer divisions with machine guns but it's just a game.
Are you advocating tech rushing soft attack in a general way, or more specifically for the Poland case study?
If we are talking general principals then I'm afraid I seem to have deduced that "soft" attack scores are overwhelmingly more important than anything else and that there is justification in tech rushing all non-hard attack techs.

The same principal applies to air attack as will be revealed in the next episode - entitled "We Have a Solution".
 
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Thanks for this. Will be going through it very slowly as it explains quite a few concepts which were either entirely a mystery to me, or I always took for granted. The relevance of SA over all other stats being a case in point. Looking forward to following. Methinks this shall prove quite invaluable!

In much the same way as your Hoi2 AARs were.

And your EU3 AARs...:)
 
@K Inspired by your research on upgrade, I did my own research and apparently found a bug. I opened a thread here to gether more opinions. However, nobody else seems to care. Anyway. I am no longer upgrading units under special training law any more unless I have to. I just hope this information is of any use to your campaign.
 
1. What about using 2Inf+2TD ? Is it better in any role then 2Infx2Art or not ?
Please explain Kanitatlan, I don't understand this as well as you.

39' models

a/ 2xInf + 2xArt - SA 18.2 HA 6.5 Def. 22.8 Tough. 17.2 Manpower: 9,32

b/ 2xInf + 2xTD - SA 11.6 HA 13 Def. 27.7 Tough. 19.6 Manpower: 10
(65 % softness)

ex:
- in plains at day x20% (combined arms bonus) = SA 13.92 HA 15.6
- in plains at night x40% (50%+20%cab/50% = 40% more effective)
etc.

Inf 39 - SA 3.8 HA 1.42 Def. 7.73 Tough. 6.6 Manpower: 3.33
Art 39 - SA 5.3 HA 1.83 Def. 3.67 Tough. 2.0 Manpower: 1.33
TD 39 - SA 2 HA 5.1 Def. 6.13 Tough. 3.2 Manpower: 1.67
according to: http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Land_unit_statistics_1936-1939

2. Mayby silly question but if the Art is so effective in SA/manpower why not using 4xArt ? Especially when facing 1-2 enemy units ?

Art 39 - SA 21,2 HA 7,32 Def. 14,68 Tough. 8.0 Manpower: 5,32
 
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@K Inspired by your research on upgrade, I did my own research and apparently found a bug. I opened a thread here to gether more opinions. However, nobody else seems to care. Anyway. I am no longer upgrading units under special training law any more unless I have to. I just hope this information is of any use to your campaign.
I would have to say that it probably isn't a bug although it clearly reveals another ooportunity for exploiting the way the system works. Clearly I could go to lower experience settings whilst executing upgrades and gain some additional spare IC. Generally speaking closing this loophole is probably inappropriate unless someone generates a ridiculous exploit of the situation (that would be me I suppose).

Kristof73 I think my main response to your data is simply to say SA dominates and that the excessive additional cost of TD is fairly pointless as my 2 Inf + 2 Art is actually more effective on average and somewhat "cheaper" all round. On the second point artillery needs mixing with other units to improve defensiveness although I think I might consider the option of building lots of 1 Inf + 3 Art to see what this offers in the way of effectiveness. Currently even more artillery is an option for Poland so it requires some careful thought.
 
It is very interesting to read. It looks like I wasted some precious Leadership points researching all infantry techs :(

However, my biggest disappointment in my current game was that at the time of a counter-offensive I had no mobile units to exploit and/or overrun retreating German units. Almost all German stacks had motorised or armoured divisions which had 6-8 movement. It means neither Polish infantry nor cavalry could outrun Germans. Of course, everybody has different style of playing, but mobility has the edge ;)

Also what plans do you have regarding proportion of officers? Sorry if I ask too early.
 
It is very interesting to read. It looks like I wasted some precious Leadership points researching all infantry techs :(

However, my biggest disappointment in my current game was that at the time of a counter-offensive I had no mobile units to exploit and/or overrun retreating German units. Almost all German stacks had motorised or armoured divisions which had 6-8 movement. It means neither Polish infantry nor cavalry could outrun Germans. Of course, everybody has different style of playing, but mobility has the edge ;)

Also what plans do you have regarding proportion of officers? Sorry if I ask too early.
I find that mobile units are a great disappointment since the key operational trick is to exploit the attack delay rules and other techniques to pin enemy forces. I am aiming at about 100% officer ratio but generally speaking as high as I can get it.
Paradox should hire Kanititlan to mathmatically analyze their game to make it more realistic and avoid things like soft attack being 10 times more effective than hard attack.
Sadly they can't afford me and I don't have enough time to keep up on a part time basis.
Very good and interesting AAR!
I aim to please.
Hire him? He's already doing it for free!
Yes, but rather too slowly. I am one small voice in a ymmering horde and always way behind in time spent on the game. You would all be shocked at the low number of hours I have spent playing this game.
 
We Have A Solution

It appears that I am now the proud owner of a plan that can be used to defeat the German invasion although I am fairly sure that it is borderline and highly susceptible to variability in German commitment against the other allied armies.

The Plan in Outline

  • Standard start as previously described
  • Research infantry and artillery soft attack techs to include 1940 tech
  • Research infantry defensiveness 36 & 38 techs when current
  • No research on other infantry or artillery techs
  • Research other stuff as before (industry, agriculture, education, supply)
  • Research interceptor air attack techs to 1939 tech
  • Build up to 164 infantry + 164 artillery in 2+2 divisions
  • Form into 16 corps in 3 armies with extras attached at higher level
  • Build up to 6 interceptors
  • Upgrade late (but start early enough to cover the multi-step needs)
  • Reinforce at the last minute
  • Doctrines within time giving inf/art org & reduced attack delay

I would include the 1942 inf/art techs but there does not appear to be time to get them in before early 1940. To get them early enough to complete upgrades would require a massive improvement, which I don't believe is possible. I might try an approach that tries to maximise infantry and artillery theory and practical around the time when the 1942 tech is being researched but I don't believe this is possible for a secondary power like Poland. For Germany 1942 tech in time for a September Polish campaign is entirely plausible (that's right, you really don't want to face me playing Germany)

Given that the 1942 techs cannot be achieved there is less time pressure and therefore a need to optimise the starting points for the earlier techs to achieve the 1940 tech in sufficient time for upgrades but otherwise as late as possible. Doing this well may be difficult as the timing lacks clear predictability

Reinforcing of HQs should be restricted so that they do not exceed more then a few hundred men. Doing so can easily save me 30 manpower and does not detract from an HQ's performance in any way. I only reinforce them by a couple of hundred so they don't instantly vaporise when bombed. This precaution may not be necessary and given how close to the edge we are skating every tiny bit of help counts so it may appropriate to not reinforce at all.

The division structure selected can be justified on two different counts. Firstly to maximise my brigade count I need to build a lot of lower manpower brigades and therefore I need a lot of artillery but I also need to maximise firepower. Balancing IC costs against other things this comes to the sort of balance envisioned with all brigades providing firepower and the infantry providing other characteristics. The second reason is that these 5 division 10 width corps fit very nicely into the force density structure of the Polish situation. Having divisions packing a lot of firepower into only 2 width gives me an advantage over the Germans who have issues with applying their full force in the space available.

With the tech planned I have divisions with attack of 20.8 and similar defensiveness. Their protective capabilities are weak compared with what they could be but the huge firepower more than compensates. By comparison 1938 tech 3 x Inf divisions have a firepower of only 11.4 giving me nearly 100% firepower advantage over the equivalent German division. This along with the force stacking issue should translate into a major casualty differential that will lead to German org depletion and hopefully to a Polish victory.

The two infantry defensiveness techs are included to restore a little balance to the divisions and protect them from a few extra casualties in their defensive battles. If I could I would swap them for the 1942 attack tech but this simply isn't possible.

The air build strategy is based in similar optimisation principals. Most air defence points will get used in a battle but they are still less than half the value of air attack points. The tech system offers massive air attack bonuses from tech with quite limited defence bonuses meaning that two air armaments techs go 90% of the way to defining a really good fighter. Whilst adding the 1941 tech would be nice this is too costly for the small force involved. The role of the interceptors is to try and neutralise the overwhelming German air power and prevent the Polish army from being brutalised by incessant bombing. The biggest issue with bombing is not the casualties accumulating from it but the fact that bombing automatically focuses on the decisive location on the battlefront and hence renders Polish forces in key locations "inoperable". It is this target focus from air power that is its most damaging effect from the defenders point of view.

Ultimately my air adventures are going to be doomed as the Germans are likely to have a full set of 1939 air techs and unit upgrades. This will give them an air defence advantage along with a range of combat bonuses (radios for a start) that I can't really hope to match. This includes rather better org, which is probably going to be the downfall of my modest air force. This is unfortunate but unavoidable but my interceptors will allow me to significantly interfere with their efforts.

Looking at likely German builds it seems I can reasonably expect them to have about 450 brigades when war starts against my 328. If you then add some extra to cover the superiority of some of their brigades (the armour) then it is reasonable to claim a 50% German superiority. On top of this they have the Luftwaffe which, if concentrated against me, will offer them a further significant advantage. This leads to the conclusion that any chance I have depends very much on how much of their land and air force is concentrated on other fronts. I have same Germany devote tiny numbers of units to the western front with eliciting any sort of French reaction so success will depend a little on luck. Whatever happens I expect to meet the main body of the German army on the open field of battle and defeat it :)
 
With the tech planned I have divisions with attack of 20.8 and similar defensiveness.

:eek: That seems really high. Is that normal for infantry divisions in HoI3? Seems like comparable infantry in HoI2 would be around 10-12. Or is it just the fruits of your technology analysis?
 
:eek: That seems really high. Is that normal for infantry divisions in HoI3? Seems like comparable infantry in HoI2 would be around 10-12. Or is it just the fruits of your technology analysis?
Its a combination of things. As you would expect the German 3 brigade divisions are 11.4 but mine are much higher by having lots of artillery and the extra tech. One step of extra tech is 0.6 SA per brigade.