Bigotry in the Paradox Community

[AndrewT]

Keep it civil, folks - you're poisoning the well here.

 

[Chief of Staff]

It is not a matter of a lack of interest, but finding the appropriate channel to help you in - in public is not one as we can't discuss identities or reproduce the offending material here. We do have to deal with this stuff all the time, unfortunately.

If this in MP chat, as I understand it there is not a lot can be done really, as we have no visibility of that. Obviously you'd not play with those people again.

Any other place this happens such as here, on our Discord or Twitter feeds, Steam discussion groups , etc, has its own reporting mechanism - have you used those?

I would love to, but your filters have made my response impossible to post.


I appreciate the response but it feels more and more like nobody wants to hear it.

If I may respectfully submit, you have not even answered the question @AndrewT asked... specifically, have you actually used those internal reporting mechanisms on these platforms he listed such as Discord, Twitter, Steam, et cetera? You should try these first before going here. As always, public complaint should be last resort and only to be used if you feel that your complaints have not been taken seriously by any of those platforms. More importantly, you should only post public complaint first on the public forum of that platform before you post it here if you feel that the posting on their forum have not resolved your issue.

I should also add that public complaints can be problematic compared to using private channels because it can be distracted by posts from those who are not in the position to do anything about it, specifically those who are not the employees. This is partly why private channels is best recommended for reporting first before you share them publicly. Moreover, the employees are generally more disciplined in their response compared to non-employees. There is always a risk that some non-employee may respond in a way that is unhelpful towards resolving the issue. These distractions can make it much more difficult to resolve it. Again, this is partly why you should try private reporting mechanisms first.

That being said, I am particularly disappointed that some people have behaved like this towards you after you came out of the 'closet', so to speak. People should not treat you any differently after this. Moreover, no one should mistreat or abuses others on the basis of who they are. This is why we can't have all nice things... like the restrictions on Nazi content in this forum. For example, I once posted a link to a video from Hitler Rants Parody (HRP) YouTube page as a part of joke post a while ago but it was removed simply because it contained Nazis / Hitler in it. It was not an offensive joke post in any way (and let's just be honest, I am sure Hitler would not have found it funny but offensive and I like offending him ) but given how overly sensitive we are about Nazi / Hitler content, I can understand why it was deleted, even though I felt it was a bit... overzealous, so to speak but I respected their decision and moved on.

Frankly, it is my personal opinion that anyone who have problems with people just because of who they are, whether it be transgender or something else, is just being a sourgrape about it. It is one thing to find them morally problematic according to THEIR moral values/beliefs but it is another thing to treat others shabbily just simply because of who they are. We can agree to disagree but it does not mean you should treat them with disrespect.

Furthermore, I know that many, though not all, people believe that, particularly in relatively conservative countries such as Russia, depiction of homosexuality, transgender, and such in media would corrupt the people. But I have always thought that to be, to use Lord Palmerston's words, a pure unadulterated nonsense. Surely, if such depiction of homosexuality could corrupt straight people, then shouldn't the same be said for the depiction of heterosexuality corrupting the homosexual people, the depiction which had long been an effective monopoly in nearly all forms of media for many centuries? Yet, homosexual people remained in substantial numbers, as I suspect they always have been, after all of those times. I am a straight guy who attends the church services and even I think this is ridiculous.

At any rate, I always believed that respect is a virtue and it is disappointing to see that some people are either devoid of that virtue or are selective in to whom they apply this virtue to.

 

[Zoe1444]

If I may respectfully submit, you have not even answered the question @AndrewT asked... specifically, have you actually used those internal reporting mechanisms on these platforms he listed such as Discord, Twitter, Steam, et cetera? You should try these first before going here. As always, public complaint should be last resort and only to be used if you feel that your complaints have not been taken seriously by any of those platforms. More importantly, you should only post public complaint first on the public forum of that platform before you post it here if you feel that the posting on their forum have not resolved your issue.

I should also add that public complaints can be problematic compared to using private channels because it can be distracted by posts from those who are not in the position to do anything about it, specifically those who are not the employees. This is partly why private channels is best recommended for reporting first before you share them publicly. Moreover, the employees are generally more disciplined in their response compared to non-employees. There is always a risk that some non-employee may respond in a way that is unhelpful towards resolving the issue. These distractions can make it much more difficult to resolve it. Again, this is partly why you should try private reporting mechanisms first.

The entire point of this thread is pointing out how hopeless and little it changes for anyone using these methods. The community is overrun with extremely reactionary people who are extremely misogynistic, transphobic, and (often) racist. Reporting people one by one is not productive and mentally draining on the people they go after. It is ridiculous to expect this to actually produce results at this point. Moderation needs to come in from the top at this point and be pro-active. The fundamental point is that Paradox does very little to help people in this regard. I would argue appeals to "well we just cannot do anything it's just too dang too hard" are not enough. There's not even a slur filter on multiplayer game lobbies. It's clear it's never and will never be a priority for Paradox.

Furthermore, I know that many, though not all, people believe that, particularly in relatively conservative countries such as Russia, depiction of homosexuality, transgender, and such in media would corrupt the people. But I have always thought that to be, to use Lord Palmerston's words, a pure unadulterated nonsense. Surely, if such depiction of homosexuality could corrupt straight people, then shouldn't the same be said for the depiction of heterosexuality corrupting the homosexual people, the depiction which had long been an effective monopoly in nearly all forms of media for many centuries? Yet, homosexual people remained in substantial numbers, as I suspect they always have been, after all of those times. I am a straight guy who attends the church services and even I think this is ridiculous.

It's great you don't think my existence is inherently offensive and a corrupting influence, but people need to go a step further and speak up and out against bigotry when we see it. Otherwise it's just going to continue to fester (which is the point we're trying to drive across to Paradox). We cannot literally just sit around and say "well it's bad some people are bigots but there's nothing to be done about the effects it has on people in our community it's just too hard."

At any rate, I always believed that respect is a virtue and it is disappointing to see that some people are either devoid of that virtue or are selective in to whom they apply this virtue to.

Respect is earned. As a trans person I have little to no patience for people who don't even know what term to use to describe gender identity and seems confused on why being trans could ever come up in a game where people are going to have 20+ hours of interactions with you just to play it. I'm not going to listen to people call me he/him and not use a feminine name for me for all those hours that's just insane.

 

[Ozmono2021]

I don't really care about your gender much myself. I see that more as progressive than regressive. I try (not always successfully) to treat people on their indvidual merits and think gender more often than not contains alot of blanket assumptions that can mislead you about a individual. I've accidently refered to people as the wrong gender on the internet. There was no malice in it. To my knowledge it has never been because the person was trans and I don't believe I've ever meet a trans person in real life.

However I am willing to show respect and if I am shown to be at fault alter my references without demanding someone earn my respect first. Granted it is harder to do this when someone is being antagonistic. Therefore I submit we all try to show each other some respect and assume first that each of us is worth it before making demands of each other. I think it'd be in everyones interest.

Anyway given the way this thread has panned out I am guessing this post will be just another distraction and another valid reason as to why having this discussion publically may not be in whomevers best interest.

 

[Spartanlemur]

You cannot expect Paradox to effectively police multiplayer games, and it would probably be more cost-effective for them to simply remove text chat entirely (most people use third-party voice chat applications anyway).

If you have come here with good intentions, and I will assume you have, then for a better multiplayer experience I would suggest finding a group that share your values and gaming interests, and then joining a Discord server or Steam group with them.

I have never had a good experience in public multiplayer games, not because of harassment or slurs (though I know that in public servers generally across all games, you get low-quality discussion filled with memes and trolling), but because most of the people who play them are far too competitive for me, and ruin the fun of the games by exploiting mechanics.

You can already keep people you want out of multiplayer: don't invite them to begin with. It has served me well for many years.

As for how to start a multiplayer group, if you have some friends, you can start with them, and then you can expand it by recruiting more, for example by starting a thread in the multiplayer section of the relevant game forum (you can be specific and specify what sort of group you are, which will help to attract like-minded people). Or you can just jump straight to recruitment or see if there is already a group whose company you may enjoy. Also don't underestimate how many Paradox players there may be in the other communities you're involved in, so it may be an idea to ask there.

 

[Chief of Staff]

The entire point of this thread is pointing out how hopeless and little it changes for anyone using these methods. The community is overrun with extremely reactionary people who are extremely misogynistic, transphobic, and (often) racist. Reporting people one by one is not productive and mentally draining on the people they go after. It is ridiculous to expect this to actually produce results at this point. Moderation needs to come in from the top at this point and be pro-active. The fundamental point is that Paradox does very little to help people in this regard. I would argue appeals to "well we just cannot do anything it's just too dang too hard" are not enough. There's not even a slur filter on multiplayer game lobbies. It's clear it's never and will never be a priority for Paradox.

As I said, private reporting mechanisms should be tried first before airing them out in public but I believe there are ways to report more than one people at a time... perhaps there is a contact form somewhere on their website. Emails might also work. I recommend taking screenshots and attach them. I don't believe in the impossible and you should not feel deterred by any obstacles you come across. I think there should be some strategies in how to deal with this. And I think Paradox staff here could make some suggestions, maybe better than mine, as to how to resolve each obstacle like one-by-one reporting thing you mentioned. I do think each company have an obligation to make reporting more easier to do, especially for larger cases.

I also suggest taking a step back and arrange reporting by weeks or something like that. You don't need to report each and every offense right away. Space them out, to avoid it becoming mentally draining. I think they will accept reporting of an offense that occurred more than a day earlier. I suggest keeping notes and screenshots. And then batch report them via contact form or something like that.

For the problem of one-by-one reporting, for now, I also suggest prioritizing reporting the most worst offenders... everyone else is small potatoes compared to these. I also suggest considering their level of influence on the community... anyone who is most influential in the community but have committed any cases of bigotry should be prioritized for reporting.

Honestly, not every platform are same so it will require different strategies. I think Steam have contact form for reporting abuses that you can use to report more than one individuals, instead of need to report them via their profiles individually. If they don't have this, maybe Paradox could ask them to set up something like that?

It's great you don't think my existence is inherently offensive and a corrupting influence, but people need to go a step further and speak up and out against bigotry when we see it. Otherwise it's just going to continue to fester (which is the point we're trying to drive across to Paradox). We cannot literally just sit around and say "well it's bad some people are bigots but there's nothing to be done about the effects it has on people in our community it's just too hard."

I do not have any problems with speaking up/out against bigotry but my concerns is whether you are blowing it out of proportion. Yes, Paradox, as any other companies, may not always successfully resolve all problems. But I think practically accusing Paradox Interactive of not actually caring about this and that without convincing evidence (that is, anything other than anecdotes and hearsay) is not going to help your case here and I suspect this is partly why people here are not taking your case seriously. Here is one idea.... I recommend taking screenshots but posted here with names redacted. And then if they persist after a while, take screenshots again. In both cases, I recommend using some kind of ID in place of their redacted names, especially if they are same people in both screenshots. If timestamps are shown in these chats, it can show whether actions, particularly bans, had been taken against them or not, to illustrate the problem that you described. I recommend ShareX software for quick screenshots that will be saved to same folder (by default, they are saved to folders automatically created with names in YYYY-MM format (e.g. /Documents/ShareX/Screenshots/2022-02 right now)).

Basically, I think you need to be creative in how to convince Paradox and the community that this problem is much bigger than they assumed. I am not saying you are lying or anything but I think you need to give bigger credits to the people here and in Paradox... they will have higher standards to expect in accepting your arguments and be convinced by them. Granted, this is not legal court and the standard of proof is much lower here than they are in legal courts but nevertheless, they are still substantially higher than any of us might like. I think it is fair to say that this level of standard is inherent to our human nature.

Respect is earned. As a trans person I have little to no patience for people who don't even know what term to use to describe gender identity and seems confused on why being trans could ever come up in a game where people are going to have 20+ hours of interactions with you just to play it. I'm not going to listen to people call me he/him and not use a feminine name for me for all those hours that's just insane.

Honestly, and this might be a bit controversial, I would still have a respect for everyone but strongly express my disappointment in those misbehaving people for their behavior. Personally, I will not stoop down to their level and disrespect them as they would to me. I would rather set an example for them to see. I think the whole idea of expecting people to earn your respect is... a bit problematic on that account.

Moreover, asking others to earn your respect is part of the problem, I feel, that have plagued the human history throughout. French Revolution might be a best example that illustrated this... it was expected that the revolution have respect from everyone with absolutely no dissent and anyone who objected to *any* aspects of the revolution are immediately suspect, liable to be executed. And this I find especially detestable, as someone who is strongly anti-death penalty. It is a slippery slope with dangerous implications.

I prefer convincing people to change their behavior, and not just by setting an example, over forcing it upon them, latter of which can generate a strong deal of resentment and leaving a bitter legacy that will be prolonged. Of course, that approach will not always work for everyone but I prefer to try that approach as much as possible and as a first course of action.

Maybe I am just idealist.... but it can't hurt to be an idealist sometimes.

 

[Cymsdale]

A slur filter on multiplayer lobby names is low-hanging fruit that Paradox can easily implement. That shouldn't be that controversial.

 

[Emperor Ike]

This is why OT is the true Paradox Community, always has been and always will be. There everyone is equal and happy. No one is harassed for who they are and everyone is mentally deranged.

 

[DanubianCossak]

This is why OT is the true Paradox Community, always has been and always will be. There everyone is equal and happy. No one is harassed for who they are and everyone is mentally deranged.

BUT THEY BANNED ME FROM OT YO

But yeah, there are edge lords on the internet. There will always be edge lords on the internet. I doubt Paradox will be able to do anything about it. But good luck to them.

 

[seattle]

Really, you should be given award for how high functioning you are with this amount of brain rot. It's impressive, really.

And you think insulting fellow forum members like this is helping your cause?

Usually, the moderators are sanctioning this behaviour...

 

[Zoe1444]

And you think insulting fellow forum members like this is helping your cause?

Usually, the moderators are sanctioning this behaviour...

Queer people being told to just go back in the closet and not be openly queer: “wow very civil and reasonable suggestion, what a smart thing to say”

Aggression from queer people in response to their humanity being denied: “omg how could you??? You’re so uncivil and mean!!!”

 

[IlikeTrains]

Queer people being told to just go back in the closet and not be openly queer: “wow very civil and reasonable suggestion, what a smart thing to say”

Aggression from queer people in response to their humanity being denied: “omg how could you??? You’re so uncivil and mean!!!”

At this point you're making a strawman out of me.

 

[Zoe1444]

At this point you're making a strawman out of me.

You sure?

1. How do the people know you're trans in the first place? It's impossible to tell from a text chat unless you mention it yourself. If you use voice chat, I imagine it's possible.

So is your solution I simply don't ever use voice chat when two of Pardox's gsg games don't even have an in-game text chat? How is this you not just telling "just dont talk lol"?

2. If you mention being transgender yourself, don't you think it may be partially the reason why people "bully you out of playing" with them? People play to have fun, and discussion about sexual orientation is controversial and can be just something they don't want to engage in.

"You mentioning it is the problem." This is you literally telling me "just stay closeted lol"

You want me to hide myself from the community so you don't have to deal with the uncomfortable reality that maybe it's wrong that people treat me like crap for just existing. This is not a strawman. You're just ignorant and belligerent about the fact that you're uneducated about gender.

 

[AndrewT]

My warning was apparently ignored, so this thread is over.