• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
I think it's particularly hard to argue in favor of having the Marajoara being represented as a SoP when we do have other tags for civilizations that face the same issues (take Cahokia, for example).
Granted, Paradox would have to basically randomize a lot of stuff, but I do strongly believe that at least the eastern Marajoara fit the criteria presented by Paradox regarding what nations should constitute tags in EUV.
I personally would go as far as to also add at the very least Santarém and the Kuikuro as tags, as well as turn most, if not all, of the Tupi-Guarani into SoPs.
I do think Marajoara, at least as far as we know of the current gameplay, is the only indigenous nation in Brazil that would qualify for a tag, even if they'll have to do some abstractions. Maybe having the Kuikuro (And Kuhikugu as a city) so close would be fun for gameplay reasons. I think we ought to have at least one tag in Brazil. These are the closest to fit the criteria for a tag.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I do think Marajoara, at least as far as we know of the current gameplay, is the only indigenous nation in Brazil that would qualify for a tag, even if they'll have to do some abstractions. Maybe having the Kuikuro (And Kuhikugu as a city) so close would be fun for gameplay reasons. I think we ought to have at least one tag in Brazil. These are the closest to fit the criteria for a tag.
I would like to do something similar to the Sahara, with corridors crossing the non-navigable areas of the rivers. This will depend on how much diversity of cultures is identified along the Xingú, Tapajós and Madeira rivers.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Ethnic map of Brazil in 1500 years (and presumably earlier years)
Nativos.png

Opinions in general are welcome.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Ethnic map of Brazil in 1500 years (and presumably earlier years)
View attachment 1257219
Opinions in general are welcome.
Seems coherent with what I researched in the Rio Grande do Sul region, with some caveats.
My sources are mainly Breve História do Rio Grande do Sul by Fábio KÜHN and História do Rio Grande do Sul Moacyr FLORES. Even after researching, I have some difficult in differing what we could call a tribe and what we would call a culture. So take all this as more of a question from a someone that is confused.

In my research, RS is indeed divided into 3 main groups: A Je speaking north, a Guarani in the middle and the Pampeanos in the pampa. However, my sources cite many tribes in the Je group and in the Pampa group. Some I never heard before, but some were even recognizable names.

Jê group:
In your map, you only portrayed a division in the Je, between Kainganag and Xokleng. Other divisions would be Guaianás(or Guaianãs?), coroados, pináres, ibijaras, caáguas(or caaguás?), gualachos and botocudos. Apparently Kainganag is even a Umbrella term for all this culture, including Xokleng, so I wander why you chose to only portraid Xokleng seperatly.

Pampa group:
Again, my sources cite numerous pampa tribes/divisions, namely Minuanos, Yarós, Guenoas and Chanás. You chose to portrait them as Charrua, but my sources indicate that the Charruas were one of those divisions and in my sources the whole group is named Pampeanos. As a side note, the name "Charrua" is also later associated with the more unified native group formed in the XVIII century from the combination of many of those tribes (OG Charruas included). The colonization pressured many groups into unifying in a single entity to resist.

Funny enough, my sources do not present any division in the Guarani group, but only cite them also as Mbyas. I wonder if the Guarani were indeed more unified and homogeneous or it is just missing research.

Also, I repost here the map present in História do Rio Grande do Sul Moacyr FLORES.
IMG_20250106_125038.jpg
Ps: I haven't had time, but I'll be doing a feedback to your proposed locations map
 
So, in the Jê group: Botocudos and Coroados are generic names that the Portuguese gave to many natives of the macro-Jê group in general. The Gauianás(es) are the old name given to the Kaingangs. The Xoklengs were considered part of the Kaingangs, but they have a distinct, non-intelligible language and inhabit the fields, while the others live in the forests. I don't remember the other terms off the top of my head, but I can look them up.

Overall there was only one group of Guaranis in RS and beyond (Mbya), as far as I know, although the groups were similar and their languages were mutually understandable.

About the Pampeans, well Pampeans is a term that indicates pampa which means fields in Quechuá (Inca). In general, dividing tribes is not very efficient as there were many, and many were lost (it is not known, for example, whether the Goiases who give their name to the state Goiás really existed) as well as the limits of some are unknown. The minuans and guenoas were the same thing. I called them churruas by metonymy, apparently they had the same language.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Ethnic map of Brazil in 1500 years (and presumably earlier years)
View attachment 1257219
Opinions in general are welcome.

Can't comment on the interior as I don't know enough there but the coastline looks good. I disagree with splitting the Tupinambá in Rio into Tamoios and the Temiminó though because there is just insufficient evidence to sustain the idea they were different ethnicities or identity groups- culturally and linguistically they were basically identical. It is likely that these terms were entirely political in nature, and it is even possible that the distinction formed due to the involvement of the Portuguese in the area. The first reference of the term 'Temiminó', for example, is dated to only the 1550s-1560s and was used already in reference to them militarily aiding the Portuguese.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Can't comment on the interior as I don't know enough there but the coastline looks good. I disagree with splitting the Tupinambá in Rio into Tamoios and the Temiminó though because there is just insufficient evidence to sustain the idea they were different ethnicities or identity groups- culturally and linguistically they were basically identical. It is likely that these terms were entirely political in nature, and it is even possible that the distinction formed due to the involvement of the Portuguese in the area. The first reference of the term 'Temiminó', for example, is dated to only the 1550s-1560s and was used already in reference to them militarily aiding the Portuguese.
According to the linguistic compilations of priests in the north and south, the Tupi language was the same, without relevant variations. Also, according to some adventurers like Hans Staden, the cultures were the same. Any division of the Tupis is political, the Tupinambás were (theoretically) the first to migrate, then the Tupiniquins migrated, leading to a fight against the others. Tabajaras are "lord of the village", something that all Tupi were. Abaeté is literally "real men"
As the developers decided to represent them and I know that SoPs are not born later, it is relevant to have separate SoP Temimino and SoP Tamoio, even if with the same culture.
 
According to the linguistic compilations of priests in the north and south, the Tupi language was the same, without relevant variations. Also, according to some adventurers like Hans Staden, the cultures were the same. Any division of the Tupis is political, the Tupinambás were (theoretically) the first to migrate, then the Tupiniquins migrated, leading to a fight against the others. Tabajaras are "lord of the village", something that all Tupi were. Abaeté is literally "real men"
As the developers decided to represent them and I know that SoPs are not born later, it is relevant to have separate SoP Temimino and SoP Tamoio, even if with the same culture.
There were dialectal differences across the Tupi continuum and we know this because the Portuguese referenced different Tupi peoples having different words for the same thing, although all their dialects were mutually intelligible. We don't know what the exact dialectal divisions were though (at least I dont know) so the most we can do is rely on the recorded classifications. The Jesuits engineered a "true version" of Tupi, which we call nowadays old Tupi and that is the form of the language that survived. I disagree that they were all culturally identical as the Potiguara were for example distinguished by the unique way they chewed on tobacco. I am not sure that all terms were political because the largest political structure was the war 'confederation' and I have seen no evidence of a singular Tupiniquim confederation, for example, and that is unlikely considering the large stretch of territory. There is reference to the idea of the Tupiniquim as an ethnicity prior to the Europeans but not as a political confederation.

The Tamoios and Temiminó were literally named through their their confederations in the context of the Portuguese-French proxy war. There is reason and evidence to believe that prior to the Portuguese arrival, all indigenous peoples in the area were separated into different confederations but identified with the idea of Tupinambá ethnically. The Tamoios and Temiminó identification formed only due to the conflict and only due to Europeans.

Tupinambá itself is a pretty iffy term as all Tupi indigenous peoples technically were also Tupinambá but obviously some were only Tupinambá and some seem to have had identities such as Potiguara and Caeté.
 
There were dialectal differences across the Tupi continuum and we know this because the Portuguese referenced different Tupi peoples having different words for the same thing, although all their dialects were mutually intelligible. We don't know what the exact dialectal divisions were though (at least I dont know) so the most we can do is rely on the recorded classifications. The Jesuits engineered a "true version" of Tupi, which we call nowadays old Tupi and that is the form of the language that survived. I disagree that they were all culturally identical as the Potiguara were for example distinguished by the unique way they chewed on tobacco. I am not sure that all terms were political because the largest political structure was the war 'confederation' and I have seen no evidence of a singular Tupiniquim confederation, for example, and that is unlikely considering the large stretch of territory. There is reference to the idea of the Tupiniquim as an ethnicity prior to the Europeans but not as a political confederation.

The Tamoios and Temiminó were literally named through their their confederations in the context of the Portuguese-French proxy war. There is reason and evidence to believe that prior to the Portuguese arrival, all indigenous peoples in the area were separated into different confederations but identified with the idea of Tupinambá ethnically. The Tamoios and Temiminó identification formed only due to the conflict and only due to Europeans.

Tupinambá itself is a pretty iffy term as all Tupi indigenous peoples technically were also Tupinambá but obviously some were only Tupinambá and some seem to have had identities such as Potiguara and Caeté.
I don't disagree with dividing the Tupis (Tupinambá, Tupiniquim, Caeté, Potiguara, Tabajara and others that you can see in the interior) But, definitely the Tupiniquins of Espírito Santo and São Paulo and the Tupinambás of Bahia and Rio de Janeiro cannot be one thing, because despite the same name (and common past?) they were not related. The differences between dialects are know and irrelevant if they understood each other (at least as a Brazilian I cannot value dialects as an object of cultural separation, I am just using the same weight that was adopted for other peoples who were also divided and the coast is so long).

In fact, the Tupinambás of Rio and São Paulo opposed the Portuguese from the beginning (because they allied themselves with the Tupiniquins, their enemies, who were the ones they encountered first) until things were resolved in the peace of Iperoy. Apparently, somehow, with French support and a (intentional?) accident on a boat where tupinambás was killed by portugeses, some of them opposed prtugueses again, while some did not, generating the Tamoio (pró french) and Temiminó (pró portuguese) division. Considering that these tribal units can constitute a SoP (since the developers did so in Bahia) I think it's fair to separate them, since the SoP cannot be formed only after the start of the game. If the devs don't want them, just make one thing; Tupinambá.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Seems coherent with what I researched in the Rio Grande do Sul region, with some caveats.
My sources are mainly Breve História do Rio Grande do Sul by Fábio KÜHN and História do Rio Grande do Sul Moacyr FLORES. Even after researching, I have some difficult in differing what we could call a tribe and what we would call a culture. So take all this as more of a question from a someone that is confused.

In my research, RS is indeed divided into 3 main groups: A Je speaking north, a Guarani in the middle and the Pampeanos in the pampa. However, my sources cite many tribes in the Je group and in the Pampa group. Some I never heard before, but some were even recognizable names.

Jê group:
In your map, you only portrayed a division in the Je, between Kainganag and Xokleng. Other divisions would be Guaianás(or Guaianãs?), coroados, pináres, ibijaras, caáguas(or caaguás?), gualachos and botocudos. Apparently Kainganag is even a Umbrella term for all this culture, including Xokleng, so I wander why you chose to only portraid Xokleng seperatly.

Pampa group:
Again, my sources cite numerous pampa tribes/divisions, namely Minuanos, Yarós, Guenoas and Chanás. You chose to portrait them as Charrua, but my sources indicate that the Charruas were one of those divisions and in my sources the whole group is named Pampeanos. As a side note, the name "Charrua" is also later associated with the more unified native group formed in the XVIII century from the combination of many of those tribes (OG Charruas included). The colonization pressured many groups into unifying in a single entity to resist.

Funny enough, my sources do not present any division in the Guarani group, but only cite them also as Mbyas. I wonder if the Guarani were indeed more unified and homogeneous or it is just missing research.

Also, I repost here the map present in História do Rio Grande do Sul Moacyr FLORES.
Ps: I haven't had time, but I'll be doing a feedback to your proposed locations map
Deepening my research, I decided to remove the Xokleng as a separate people, as they formed a continium with the Kaingangs. I also removed the Panará, as they originated from the Kaiapos and are in the middle of their continium.
 
View attachment 1255958
The proposal like this currently. There is room for some improvements and the need to add locations in Rondônia (and possibly in Mato Grosso). It has 540 locations, it will probably end up with around 550, while Tinto's map has around 320. For the areas that had already been done, I added 2 locations and removed 9 locations, as for Pará, I added 3 locations, although I think Marajó needs some adjustments to better represent the natives (probably just a redesign).
Proposta_Braziler_reviewed.png

Proposta_Braziler_reviewed_provinces.png

So, I tried to make a feedback to your latest preposition to the RS. Am I happy with it? No. There are points to which I'm sure, but many changes have vague motives and many other different divisions are possible.

The coast locations are OK. They are the same in my early map.

My main critic is that you're map does not represent the elevation in the northeast. This is by far the main(and mostly the only) terrain feature of the region. So I made the following changes:
- increased the wasteland northwest of Osório, based on Sulphurologist's TRI map.
- Removed the location of Santo Antônio da Patrulha, as it contained flat lowlands, harsh hills and flat highlands in the same location. Going from Osório or Porto Alegre to Vacaria you must pass through rough terrain.
- The lowland part of Santo Antônio da Patrulha was annex to Porto Alegre. The highlands part was made into it's own location named São Francisco de Paula. The rough middle part was too small to be a single location so was annex into a "new" location named Caxias do Sul.
-The location of São Leopoldo had the same problem. It's lowlands were annex into Porto Alegre or São Jerônimo. The small highland was annex into São Francisco de Paula and the rest became Caxias do Sul, as the city of São Leopoldo is actually in the lowlands, now part of the location of Porto Alegre.
This way, the lowlands locations -Porto Alegre and São Jerônimo- and the highlands locations -São Francisco de Paula and Vacaria- can be flatland while the location of Caxias do Sul can be hills.

Small redraw the border of Vacaria and Lagoa Vermelha:
- Northwest of Vacaria was expanded to include all of today municipality of Vacaria.
- In exchange I continued the border following the frontier of the Vacaria municipality and added some terrain to southeast Lagoa Vermelha.
This cut the connection between Vacaria and Caxias do Sul and I don't dislike it.

Small change to Soledade borders, added some terrain south where is hilly and removed some terrain in the northeast where it is flat. This way the location is a little more homogeneous as a hills location. Also removed the horrible south tip caused by the municipality of Agudo.

Expanded the Passo Fundo westwards till the line of the San Idelfonso Treaty. It became kinda huge location, so I split it into two, with a northern part that can be classified as hilly and the proper Passo Fundo location that is flatland. I named the north location as Erechim, as it's the biggest city there today.

The reductions region had some big changes. I'm really not sure about my idea, but I prefer it to your map because you grouped all seven reductions into only two locations and it does not follow the San Idelfonso treay line.

- Firstly I cut the location of São Borja in half. The southern part of São Borja annex part of Itaqui location. The northen part contains three other Jesuit missions and was named São Nicolau.

- The north border of this location of São Nicolau was changed to meet the Ijui river. This river futher divides the mission of Santo Angelo to the north and the others to the south. The river basin goes east to the line of the treaty of San Idelfonso.

- At this point a space remained north of the Ijui river and west of the treaty line. In this space, next to the river, there is the reduction of Santo Angelo. I decided against keeping it a single location as the colonization of Santo Angelo came not directly from the Argentinan lands in the northwest but from the other reductions in the southwest, across the river. Therefore, I found that having the location of Santo Angelo bordering Argentina sounded weird. I then cut it in half. I'm not sure about this solution. The new northwest location can be named Santa Rosa, as it's the biggest city today.

- The other reductions south of the Ijui river and in the old location of Cruz Alta were reorganized into a new location with the treaty line as the eastern border. To the south I annex parts of the Itaqui and Santa Maria locations.

- The Santa Maria and Cruz Alta locations were cut by the treaty line. Their eastern parts were fused into a single location. This could be named Salto do Jacuí.

- The remains of the locations of Santa Maria and Itaqui were grouped and annexed the northern part of São Gabriel to make a new location, named São Vicente or Jaguari.

The region west of the Madrid treaty line was mostly unchanged. The Bagé location was cut by the San Idelfonso treaty. The eastern part I annex to the Jaguarão location. The western part was made into a new location with the eastern part of the Santana do Livramento location. I kept the name Bagé, as the today city is in this location. I don't like the shape of this location.

The weird space between both treaties was organized into a new location. It's weird and impossible to find a good name. I'm not convinced of neither this location neither the new Bagé location.

The remains of Santa Maria and São Gabriel east of the San Ildefonso treaty line were annexed into the location of Cachoeira do sul and the remains of the location of Caçapava. The names Cacheira do Sul and Caçapava do Sul can be kept. I also changed a little the border between this two locations so that Cachoeira only has the river flatlands and Caçapava has more parts of the Escudo Rio Grandense.

The Provinces were designed conidering the colonization timeline, as the colonization mecanics is by province.

This changes increased the number of locations back to 30. I don't think it's a problem.

Some feedback about names:
- Osório should be Conceição do Arroio, as it was this name before 1930.
- Porto Alegre should be Porto dos Casais or even maybe Viamão.
- São Jerônimo should be Tiunfo or Bom Jesus do Triunfo, as it is the older city in the location. São Jerônimo was created from Triunfo in 1938.
- Caxias do Sul is completely ahistorical (named after the duke of Caxias of the 19th century), but I haven't found a better name. It was very late colonization.
- Santana do Livramento is officially Sant'Ana do Livramento.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:


So, I tried to make a feedback to your latest preposition to the RS. Am I happy with it? No. There are points to which I'm sure, but many changes have vague motives and many other different divisions are possible.

The coast locations are OK. They are the same in my early map.

My main critic is that you're map does not represent the elevation in the northeast. This is by far the main(and mostly the only) terrain feature of the region. So I made the following changes:
- increased the wasteland northwest of Osório, based on Sulphurologist's TRI map.
- Removed the location of Santo Antônio da Patrulha, as it contained flat lowlands, harsh hills and flat highlands in the same location. Going from Osório or Porto Alegre to Vacaria you must pass through rough terrain.
- The lowland part of Santo Antônio da Patrulha was annex to Porto Alegre. The highlands part was made into it's own location named São Francisco de Paula. The rough middle part was too small to be a single location so was annex into a "new" location named Caxias do Sul.
-The location of São Leopoldo had the same problem. It's lowlands were annex into Porto Alegre or São Jerônimo. The small highland was annex into São Francisco de Paula and the rest became Caxias do Sul, as the city of São Leopoldo is actually in the lowlands, now part of the location of Porto Alegre.
This way, the lowlands locations -Porto Alegre and São Jerônimo- and the highlands locations -São Francisco de Paula and Vacaria- can be flatland while the location of Caxias do Sul can be hills.

Small redraw the border of Vacaria and Lagoa Vermelha:
- Northwest of Vacaria was expanded to include all of today municipality of Vacaria.
- In exchange I continued the border following the frontier of the Vacaria municipality and added some terrain to southeast Lagoa Vermelha.
This cut the connection between Vacaria and Caxias do Sul and I don't dislike it.

Small change to Soledade borders, added some terrain south where is hilly and removed some terrain in the northeast where it is flat. This way the location is a little more homogeneous as a hills location. Also removed the horrible south tip caused by the municipality of Agudo.

Expanded the Passo Fundo westwards till the line of the San Idelfonso Treaty. It became kinda huge location, so I split it into two, with a northern part that can be classified as hilly and the proper Passo Fundo location that is flatland. I named the north location as Erechim, as it's the biggest city there today.

The reductions region had some big changes. I'm really not sure about my idea, but I prefer it to your map because you grouped all seven reductions into only two locations and it does not follow the San Idelfonso treay line.

- Firstly I cut the location of São Borja in half. The southern part of São Borja annex part of Itaqui location. The northen part contains three other Jesuit missions and was named São Nicolau.

- The north border of this location of São Nicolau was changed to meet the Ijui river. This river futher divides the mission of Santo Angelo to the north and the others to the south. The river basin goes east to the line of the treaty of San Idelfonso.

- At this point a space remained north of the Ijui river and west of the treaty line. In this space, next to the river, there is the reduction of Santo Angelo. I decided against keeping it a single location as the colonization of Santo Angelo came not directly from the Argentinan lands in the northwest but from the other reductions in the southwest, across the river. Therefore, I found that having the location of Santo Angelo bordering Argentina sounded weird. I then cut it in half. I'm not sure about this solution. The new northwest location can be named Santa Rosa, as it's the biggest city today.

- The other reductions south of the Ijui river and in the old location of Cruz Alta were reorganized into a new location with the treaty line as the eastern border. To the south I annex parts of the Itaqui and Santa Maria locations.

- The Santa Maria and Cruz Alta locations were cut by the treaty line. Their eastern parts were fused into a single location. This could be named Salto do Jacuí.

- The remains of the locations of Santa Maria and Itaqui were grouped and annexed the northern part of São Gabriel to make a new location, named São Vicente or Jaguari.

The region west of the Madrid treaty line was mostly unchanged. The Bagé location was cut by the San Idelfonso treaty. The eastern part I annex to the Jaguarão location. The western part was made into a new location with the eastern part of the Santana do Livramento location. I kept the name Bagé, as the today city is in this location. I don't like the shape of this location.

The weird space between both treaties was organized into a new location. It's weird and impossible to find a good name. I'm not convinced of neither this location neither the new Bagé location.

The remains of Santa Maria and São Gabriel east of the San Ildefonso treaty line were annexed into the location of Cachoeira do sul and the remains of the location of Caçapava. The names Cacheira do Sul and Caçapava do Sul can be kept. I also changed a little the border between this two locations so that Cachoeira only has the river flatlands and Caçapava has more parts of the Escudo Rio Grandense.

The Provinces were designed conidering the colonization timeline, as the colonization mecanics is by province.

This changes increased the number of locations back to 30. I don't think it's a problem.

Some feedback about names:
- Osório should be Conceição do Arroio, as it was this name before 1930.
- Porto Alegre should be Porto dos Casais or even maybe Viamão.
- São Jerônimo should be Tiunfo or Bom Jesus do Triunfo, as it is the older city in the location. São Jerônimo was created from Triunfo in 1938.
- Caxias do Sul is completely ahistorical (named after the duke of Caxias of the 19th century), but I haven't found a better name. It was very late colonization.
- Santana do Livramento is officially Sant'Ana do Livramento.
My thoughts:
Not all terrain variations require their own location, but modeling them in a way that avoids unexpected movements is quite relevant. I will analyze this in more detail. But in general, removing older locations (São Gabriel, Patrulha, Santa Maria) and replacing them with more modern ones (Jaguari, Caxias do Sul, Salto do Jacuí) because of a treaty that was never implemented does not seem satisfactory to me.
I will take note of Triunfo and Santo Angelo. The names at the map are from nowdays, to turn easy research about them.
I'm not 100% satisfied with my map either.

Captura de Tela (3008).png

Not finished. Waht did you fink?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: